Ranking

[frenzymando]

You probably will, but be aware that there are always schools that are more competitive. The high school I go to has a 28.8 average ACT score and 99% attend 4-year colleges or universities. 21 National Merit Finalists, more than half are state scholars and AP scholars. For a class of 300, thats not too shabby. I know that the service academies will look positively at my schools stats, and they will for yours too. I also know that being challenged academically everyday has helped me in the long run. Don't worry so much. Your high school's stats are impossible for you to control.

Wow those stats are amazing! I don't really know a lot about how most school's test scores are, but that sounds like it would be one of the best schools in the country, if not the best. Do you attend a public school that is open to everyone?

 

[jculligan]

Wow those stats are amazing! Do you attend a public school that is open to everyone?

No I attend a Catholic college prep school that is one of the top in Illinois. However, your school is much better off than most high schools in the US and admissions will look favorably.

 

[NewJersey2019]

Anyone know if I will receive a bump in my class rank because of my school's profile?

438 seniors

126(29%) of seniors with a 30 or above on the ACT

Average ACT composite: 24.6
Average SAT math: 583
Average SAT reading: 582

69% of seniors going to 4 year universities
25% of seniors going to 2 year community colleges

When I went to a briefing at SLE for Northeast Region Admissions, the NE Regional Commander, Major Ghazal, spoke on the consideration process for "bonus points" for those attending a challenging high school. He used 75% to 4-year colleges as a benchmark for the beginning of consideration for those points, if I recall correctly. I am not associated with admissions nor aware of the nature of your school nor very knowledgeable about national high school standards, but I'm sure a lot of USMA cadets come from similar backgrounds. Now whether you get "bonus points" on your file is of course up to what admissions thinks about the stats and whether that 75% is truly the benchmark. Regardless of the points, about which it would be worth adding that you don't even know if you receive them (I was never informed), you shouldn't worry too much.

 

[frenzymando]

When I went to a briefing at SLE for Northeast Region Admissions, the NE Regional Commander, Major Ghazal, spoke on the consideration process for "bonus points" for those attending a challenging high school. He used 75% to 4-year colleges as a benchmark for the beginning of consideration for those points, if I recall correctly. I am not associated with admissions nor aware of the nature of your school nor very knowledgeable about national high school standards, but I'm sure a lot of USMA cadets come from similar backgrounds. Now whether you get "bonus points" on your file is of course up to what admissions thinks about the stats and whether that 75% is truly the benchmark. Regardless of the points, about which it would be worth adding that you don't even know if you receive them (I was never informed), you shouldn't worry too much.

Not sure if this is true, but I would guess that the Northeast region is the strongest region when it comes to academics in the US. I come from Alabama, and the Southeast isn't really known for it's elite scholars, so I would guess that our standards are lower than the Northeast's, or basically no one here would receive the bonus points.

Just my thoughts, but wouldn't % of students going to a 4 year college be a very bad metric for this purpose? Most competitive West Point applicants are going to be in the top 20% of their class, so wouldn't it make more sense for them to look at what % of students are getting a 30 or something like that? It shouldn't matter if the median student at a school decides to go to college since the median student does not impact the candidate's rank. The people that are going to impact the candidate's rank are the people scoring 30s and above on the ACT, or similar scores on the SAT. In other words, only the elite students are going to impact a candidate's class rank, so in my opinion, it would make more sense to look at the elite students instead of all of the students. Of course my opinion doesn't really matter and I simply have to take whatever West Point gives. But WP has been doing this admission process for years, so they probably know a thing or two on finding the strong candidates.

 

[Dixieland]

I come from Alabama, and the Southeast isn't really known for it's elite scholars, so I would guess that our standards are lower than the Northeast's, or basically no one here would receive the bonus points.

Huh???

 

[frenzymando]

Huh???

If there are 100 students in a class, and Steve is a competitive West Point applicant, Steve is probably in the top 20% of his class. Lets say Steve is ranked number 15. 20% of the class scored a 36 on the ACT, the other 80% scored below a 18; so only 20% of the class is going to a 4 year college, and the average ACT score is in the teens. But Steve is rank 15 in his class, which means that the only people he is behind are people who scored a 36 on the ACT. At most school's, Steve would be number 1, since he scored a 36 on the ACT. Steve's school isn't deemed competitive since only 20% of the students are going to college. Steve does not receive any bonus points for his class rank despite the fact that he is above 5 people who scored a 36 on the ACT.

Bob goes to another school. The school also has 100 students. Bob is rank number 15 in his school. 80% of the students at Bob's school scored between a 22 and a 27 on the ACT. The other 20% score a 28 or above. 99% of the students at Bob's school go to a 4 year college. Bob scores a 28 on the ACT, which is 15th best in his class. Since Bob's school has so many people going to college, Bob receives bonus points in his class rank.

Which school was it harder to be rank 15 at? Steve's, to be rank 15 he needed a 36 on the ACT.

Which person deserved bonus points for his class rank more? Steve

Which person's school would be deemed more competitive if the metric used is % of students going to a 4 year college? Bob's

Which person receives the bonus points?
Bob

Basically, looking at the % of students going to 4 year colleges to determine if a school's candidate(s) gets bonus points for their class rank hurts candidates that go to top heavy schools(Steve's school) and helps candidates that go to balanced schools(Bob's school).

That probably wasn't the best analogy since class rank isn't determined by ACT scores, but a person with a high ACT score will also likely have a high GPA which does determine class rank. The reason I chose to use ACT scores in the analogy instead if GPA is because GPA is not standerdized while the ACT is.

 

[Dixieland]

Please address what I quoted from your post.

I hope you will attack your West Point application with as much energy as you have listing the reasons you think you won't get in.

 

[frenzymando]

Please address what I quoted from your post.

I hope you will attack your West Point application with as much energy as you have listing the reasons you think you won't get in.

My bad, I've been sitting in a DMV for the last 4 hours so I'm not as sharp as I am normally right now, however sharp that is. I just read that I was quoted and didn't even check what you had quoted, I simply saw the "Huh???".

I'm not certain of this, but I'm pretty sure the test scores in the Northeast are higher than they are in the Southeast. I haven't looked them up, but I've seen the national merit cutoff scores for some of the Northeast's states. New Jersey's cutoff is routinely 222, 223, 224. Alabama's is usually below 210, the same is true for several other southeastern states. The national merit cutoff for a state is based on what score is needed to be in the top 1%, so I infer that since you need more than 10 points more to be in the top 1% of New Jersey, the people there have higher test scores in general. I'm fairly certain that the Northeast as a whole has a higher cutoff than the Southeast. Since test scores are higher the percentage of students going to 4 year colleges is also likely to be higher. In the Southeast, I would guess that very few schools would have 75% of their students go to 4 year colleges; in the Northeast, I wouldn't be surprised if it were considered commonplace.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the 2nd part, but I can assure you I will "attack" my West Point application with everything I've got.

 

[NewJersey2019]

Just my thoughts, but wouldn't % of students going to a 4 year college be a very bad metric for this purpose?

The standard, I'm sure, isn't exclusive to just this measurement. The vague understanding I had of the system was based off the 75% benchmark that Major Ghazal gave at SLE. It didn't seem too firm either, he was just giving an example of a "competitive school." Every situation is unique. I apologize for making that benchmark seem like the only possible judgment. My greatest advice to you is to have your guidance counselor submit a statement regarding the competitiveness of your school to West Point with your transcript if the matter means so much to you. I'm sure USMA will consider it. They considered the unique aspect of my school, which has no class rank, no weighted GPA, no official AP classes, a <10% acceptance rate, etc. In my experience, USMA Admissions and MOC were extremely understanding and I felt throughout the process that I was being judged fairly. And it may be worth adding that I was worried before the process started that I would be at a disadvantage for coming from an unorthodox school. My MALO helped make me sure that I was not.

In the Southeast, I would guess that very few schools would have 75% of their students go to 4 year colleges; in the Northeast, I wouldn't be surprised if it were considered commonplace.

That would make sense and I apologize for my misinterpretation. Almost all the schools I'm familiar with around me hit that 75% and it was shallow of me to consider that as commonplace nationwide.

 

[MemberLG]

If there are 100 students in a class, and Steve is a competitive West Point applicant, Steve is probably in the top 20% of his class. Lets say Steve is ranked number 15. 20% of the class scored a 36 on the ACT, the other 80% scored below a 18; so only 20% of the class is going to a 4 year college, and the average ACT score is in the teens. But Steve is rank 15 in his class, which means that the only people he is behind are people who scored a 36 on the ACT. At most school's, Steve would be number 1, since he scored a 36 on the ACT. Steve's school isn't deemed competitive since only 20% of the students are going to college. Steve does not receive any bonus points for his class rank despite the fact that he is above 5 people who scored a 36 on the ACT.

Bob goes to another school. The school also has 100 students. Bob is rank number 15 in his school. 80% of the students at Bob's school scored between a 22 and a 27 on the ACT. The other 20% score a 28 or above. 99% of the students at Bob's school go to a 4 year college. Bob scores a 28 on the ACT, which is 15th best in his class. Since Bob's school has so many people going to college, Bob receives bonus points in his class rank.

Which school was it harder to be rank 15 at? Steve's, to be rank 15 he needed a 36 on the ACT.

Which person deserved bonus points for his class rank more? Steve

Which person's school would be deemed more competitive if the metric used is % of students going to a 4 year college? Bob's

Which person receives the bonus points?
Bob

Basically, looking at the % of students going to 4 year colleges to determine if a school's candidate(s) gets bonus points for their class rank hurts candidates that go to top heavy schools(Steve's school) and helps candidates that go to balanced schools(Bob's school).

That probably wasn't the best analogy since class rank isn't determined by ACT scores, but a person with a high ACT score will also likely have a high GPA which does determine class rank. The reason I chose to use ACT scores in the analogy instead if GPA is because GPA is not standerdized while the ACT is.

Any idea how much thes "good school bonus point" is worth?

I believe WCS is 8000 maximum, so 60% (academics) is 4800 points, say (guess) 50% or 2400 points is for class ranking. I would think that bonus point should be no more than 1o% or less as anything bigger will automatically favor applicants from "good school" and also skew the WCS score. All of us beholden to our personal experience, so I expect most students attending "good" schools to do well in classes/SAT/ACT than students that attend average school. I believe there is a strong correlation between economic status of student population and student performance (i.e your school is not located in an economically depressed area). So too much bonus point to good school will give advantage to kids from higher economic status.

Tangent to this discussion, if I have to pick between top 5% kid from a good school vs top #1 kid from an inner city school, I probably pick the #1 kid from an inner city school.

 

[frenzymando]

Any idea how much thes "good school bonus point" is worth?

I believe WCS is 8000 maximum, so 60% (academics) is 4800 points, say (guess) 50% or 2400 points is for class ranking. I would think that bonus point should be no more than 1o% or less as anything bigger will automatically favor applicants from "good school" and also skew the WCS score. All of us beholden to our personal experience, so I expect most students attending "good" schools to do well in classes/SAT/ACT than students that attend average school. I believe there is a strong correlation between economic status of student population and student performance (i.e your school is not located in an economically depressed area). So too much bonus point to good school will give advantage to kids from higher economic status.

Tangent to this discussion, if I have to pick between top 5% kid from a good school vs top #1 kid from an inner city school, I probably pick the #1 kid from an inner city school.

I saw this chart on college confidential, it's for Navy and it's over 10 years old, but it may vaguely reflect how WCS is determined by West Point today.

Highest SAT verbal score - 15 %
Highest SAT math score - 31 %
High School Class rank - 21 %
Teacher Recommendation - 8 %
X-curr. activities/athletics - 10%
strong interest inventory technical interest score - 12 %
strong interest inventory career interest score - 3 %

Now obviously in this chart academics carry a much higher weight than they do now, so it's no longer accurate, but looking at the ratio of class rank to SAT scores, one's SAT scores holds about twice the value(46%:21%) that one's class rank does. This may hold true today, it may not.


http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/naval-academy-annapolis/10054-whole-person-score.html

This the research paper that the college confidential post refers to:
http://usna.edu/IR/htmls/lead/database/cohort6/c06_hollenbach.pdf

I have no idea how much the bonus points are worth, or how many points you get for each % you improve your rank.

 

[civic29]

I have no idea how this thread got to high school ranking, it was about West Point class ranking :/


2019 WestPoint class appointee

Recipient of 4 year army rotc scholarship.

 

[MemberLG]

I have no idea how much the bonus points are worth, or how many points you get for each % you improve your rank.

I was tyring to point out that we can't have a factual discussion about "bonus" point for attending a good school as we don't know how much it is worth and more than likely it won't be significant enough to change the outcome.

 

[oldcorpsdad]

Be the best at everything you can and stay true to yourself. This is a complex process with many variables. Some analysis against the past class profiles is required but don’t over analyze it.
This is an extract from a recent study by a Govt think tank on “Selecting for success at the Military Academy/West Point and as an Officer”

Admission to West Point is a highly complex process. We observe that
an applicant’s WCS, while important, is not the sole determinant of
admission, even if the applicant is deemed academically, physically,
and medically qualified. Many applicants who were not offered admission
had higher WCSs than applicants who were offered admission.
Whether this results from some combination of judgments of the essay
component of applications that were not available to us and/or class
composition goals is unknown.

Over focusing on your class rank isn’t going to get you in if your teacher says you don’t play well with others and don’t set a good example in the classroom. Winning the state championship in football isn’t the key to getting in if you have no other activities where you show leadership. Academics is the biggest part with SAT/ACT scores having a big role. Math is more weighted than verbal. All of the parts help and are necessary. It is a Whole Candidate Score.

 

[MemberLG]

I have no idea how this thread got to high school ranking, it was about West Point class ranking :/


2019 WestPoint class appointee

Recipient of 4 year army rotc scholarship.

Not sure about the precentage breakdown, but academics was your GPA, military was your miltiary grade, and the physical grade was a combination of your APFT, IOCT, and sports participation (i.e. based on the difficulty and leave of accomplishment, more points. So you are a varsity athlete that won a national championship/beat Navy, a lot of points vs a cadet that only participated in required intramuarl sports, not so much points)

 

[MemberLG]

Admission to West Point is a highly complex process. We observe that
an applicant’s WCS, while important, is not the sole determinant of
admission, even if the applicant is deemed academically, physically,
and medically qualified. Many applicants who were not offered admission
had higher WCSs than applicants who were offered admission.
Whether this results from some combination of judgments of the essay
component of applications that were not available to us and/or class
composition goals is unknown.

If the think tank understood or anaylzed the nomination category, they would have been able to partially explain why some applicants were offered admission over applicants with higher WCS. My WCS could be 7o00. But if another applicant in the same Congressional district as 7001, I won't get an appointment. Whereas as a kid that lives on the next street and different Congressional district with 6500 WCS will be offered an appointment because that is the highest WCS grade.

 

[845something]

Frenzy,

General tone that I (and I would imagine a lot of other regular posters) get from your posts is not that positive towards you. First and foremost, you need to understand that you aren't that special.

Your school may be good, but it ain't the greatest. For every reason you think you should get a break, there are other reasons your logic is flawed. For example, did you consider neither Bob nor Steve receive bonus points because Steve's school isn't deemed competitive enough to be considered and Bob's test score national percentile isn't high enough to warrant one.

You need to drop the whoa is me, my class rank is such a disadvantage, I go to such a good school attitude. You've filled pages of this forum on this topic, even turning this thread from about ranking at West Point to how WCS is calculated for admission. Stop concentrating on what your WCS is/could be, and be the best candidate you can. Admissions, Cadets, and Officers at West Point don't like individuals that are solely focused on themselves and gaming the system.

 

[frenzymando]

Frenzy,

General tone that I (and I would imagine a lot of other regular posters) get from your posts is not that positive towards you. First and foremost, you need to understand that you aren't that special.

Your school may be good, but it ain't the greatest. For every reason you think you should get a break, there are other reasons your logic is flawed. For example, did you consider neither Bob nor Steve receive bonus points because Steve's school isn't deemed competitive enough to be considered and Bob's test score national percentile isn't high enough to warrant one.

You need to drop the whoa is me, my class rank is such a disadvantage, I go to such a good school attitude. You've filled pages of this forum on this topic, even turning this thread from about ranking at West Point to how WCS is calculated for admission. Stop concentrating on what your WCS is/could be, and be the best candidate you can. Admissions, Cadets, and Officers at West Point don't like individuals that are solely focused on themselves and gaming the system.

Sorry that that was the way I came off, I wasn't aware of it. Obviously many people agree with you, judging from the likes on your post. I'm aware that I'm not that special, and it has never been my goal to convince people that I am special.

I wasn't attempting to complain that I deserve a "break", I was simply stating my opinion on class rank and asking whether I will likely get a "break". But what I attempt to do and what people think I am doing can be two completely different things

The Bob and Steve thing was simply an analogy to illustrate how a top heavy school would harm the chances of a candidate if the metric they used to deem whether a school is competitive is what % of students go to a 4 year college. It's not very realistic I know, I was just trying to explain my reasoning.

 

[Dixieland]

General tone that I (and I would imagine a lot of other regular posters) get from your posts is not that positive towards you. First and foremost, you need to understand that you aren't that special.

Your school may be good, but it ain't the greatest. For every reason you think you should get a break, there are other reasons your logic is flawed. For example, did you consider neither Bob nor Steve receive bonus points because Steve's school isn't deemed competitive enough to be considered and Bob's test score national percentile isn't high enough to warrant one.

You need to drop the whoa is me, my class rank is such a disadvantage, I go to such a good school attitude. You've filled pages of this forum on this topic, even turning this thread from about ranking at West Point to how WCS is calculated for admission. Stop concentrating on what your WCS is/could be, and be the best candidate you can. Admissions, Cadets, and Officers at West Point don't like individuals that are solely focused on themselves and gaming the system.

845something, I wish I could "like" this 100 times. Where is that "love" button when you need it?

 

[LineInTheSand]

Before the southeast gets too much crap.... there are 4.8+ million people in Alabama. Assuming 1 in 50 can join Mensa, with a gifted I.Q., we can assume there are around 96,000 gifted folks in Alabama. Some may not have access to a good school, some may.

What you can also assume is that the people who are accepted to top level schools are very competitive. You may want to bash the southeast, but it's the bright folks from every state who are being accepted.... not just the northeast. And you can find just as many dumb redneck idiots in Mass or Rhode Island or New Jersey, as you can in Alabama, Mississippi or Georgia.