Service Selection Help

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uberlicht1000

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Concerned parent with a question for the group. My NROTC senior son, who is majoring in aerospace engineering and really wanted naval aviator, was just assigned surface nuclear warfare officer. This was his 4th choice on his list. He has a 3.8 GPA, captain of the crew team and is in top form so he thought he was doing all the right things to get aviator. I understand the selection process part of the risk of the military officer path but does the Navy offer opportunities to change assignments? At least to a position where he could apply his education? Any advice on this is appreciated.
 
It all comes down to the needs of the Navy. The Navy never seems to be short of people who want to fly, but filling nuclear positions, both above and especially below the water seems to be a challenge. It takes a certain aptitude for the math and physics required to be successful in nuke school and your son must have shown an aptitude for that. For what it's worth, your DS would not be applying his education in aerospace engineering as a pilot or NFO. there are plenty of people with economics, political science, computer science, etc degrees who become aviators. As a parent of someone who was selected for SWO(N) and wanted it, I hope your DS can embrace it and become excited for the opportunity.

There are sometimes opportunities to switch warfare communities, but they seem to be rare. From what I have read, the officer first needs to earn their warfare pin in their assigned community; they need to be a top performer in their assigned community and the community they want to transfer to has to have a need for them. The assigned community has to agree to release this top performer and the receiving community has to agree to accept them.

Admiral Sands, the commander of NSTC, is an example of this. He was assigned SWO out of USNA, but wanted Special Warfare/SEAL. He was able to successfully transfer and become a SEAL.
 
uberlicht1000 said:
At least to a position where he could apply his education? Any advice on this is appreciated.
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Aero Engineering is actually right in the wheelhouse of the Navy Nuclear program. My son was an Aero major at USNA and was honorman in his Nuc school class. Now, Chief Eng on a Sub. I am not a nuc myself but served on and qualified SWO on a Nuclear ship so I have a decent level of understanding about the field. Generally, I would compare the Aero major to Systems Eng because it is more broad based than many other Engineering fields as it deals with power plants, avionics, structures, etc. In my experience, Systems Eng is an excellent prep for Nuc and so is Aero.
 
It sounds like your DS was nuke drafted. Sorry to hear he did not get what he wanted. There are opportunities to apply for moves to other communities. The best advice for him is to go to Nuke School and get to his sub and knock it out of the park. Doing well in what he is assigned is the best thing he can do to get solid evals and his CO to write a very positive endorsement. I know that is alot to ask of someone to give them one day to have a chance at maybe getting a chance to move. Maybe in the end he loves subs, never know!
 
Voulentold for nuke power happens - don't spend the bonus if you crash out of power school they tend to want it back

Charleston isn't a bad duty station though power school it tough tough tough
 
Generally speaking, if a MIDN doesn't want nuclear, they should not put nuclear on their service assignment sheet. By rule, they cannot pick you for nuclear if it is not on your service assignment sheet. This is how they get away with not "drafting" MIDN to be nukes, because if it is on their service assignment sheet, they technically signed up for it. My LT put submarines as his 5th choice, and was picked for submarines.

That being said, he's assigned SWO(N) for now. I'm not saying he should do this, but I know of MIDN in the past who were real with the Admiral and told him they did not want to be a nuke. They then become conventional SWO. It is much easier to lateral transfer from SWO then SWO(N) or submarines. Here is a link for a SWO(N) brief: https://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/officer/Detailing/surfacewarfare/detailers/Pages/SWO (N).aspx. It even says that lateral transfering to another community is generally not a thing until the end of your department head tour (10+ years down the line) with the exception being EDO(N). Just something for your DS to look into if he really does not want to serve as a nuke and wants another shot at aviation.
 
I echo the sentiments above. They were nuke drafted, and there’s a small possibility they can transfer down the road. Knock it out of the park as a sub person, then have the CO write a stellar letter of rec down the road.
 
A Navy intra-service lateral transfer and redesignation action board may meet 1-2 times a year to consider applications. It is a competitive board.

Two elements must align: the losing warfare community must have the manpower end strength to lose someone in a given year group (commissioning year) AND the gaining warfare community must have the room to add end strength in that same year. These numbers are closely managed.

In addition to that, the applicant must be a stellar performer and have a resounding endorsement from the commanding officer forwarding the application package.

I dug up the guidance for FY 2019. I sat on 3 of those boards when I was AD.
Para 3 addresses things such as: age limitations, when it can be applied for (some number of years after the warfare pin is obtained in the original warfare community), refers to several “instructions” (Navy policy) with other criteria (these can probably be found online), and so on.

All Navy officer communities have 4-digit numerical designators. Aviation is 13XX. The XX numbers can be further delineated to reflect pilot, naval flight officer, and active or Reserve status, student pilot status. I think sub officer fully qualified is 1120. Designators beginning with “1” are either unrestricted line or restricted line. Designators beginning with other numbers will be Staff Corps (doctors, lawyers, civil engineers, etc.) or Limited Duty Officers or Chief Warrant Officers. I only mention this because it can be baffling when reading Navy documents.

 
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Not a direct response to the other responses but to the original post. @uberlicht1000, I think part of his/ your concern is seeking to understand what happened. He should ask his chain of command. Candidly, was it just he's so bright they recruited him for NUC? Anything else weigh into the decision to give him his 4th choice?

I do not know your son or who you are at all, so this response is not personal. Just another parent seeing if sharing any thoughts here might help.

To me, feedback is a gift. I'd recommend he have a discussion with his chain of command and request feedback. What percentage of those commissioning this year from his school received their first/ second/ third / fourth choices? He could also review his fitreps /evals and see if there is any pattern of concern. Specifically then he should ask if anything is holding him back.

Was this purely a talent grab (very likely), or- is he perceived as unable to play well with others, arrogant, is he respectful, is he an effective leader? does he inspire, is he active in his unit (well back when the mids did more things together like that before Covid). How does he treat those in lower ranks and in his command, is he a drama-mama, meaning always a common denominator in petty, divisive BS? It's not all about GPA, how fast you run a mile, etc.

Very likely as others stated the selection here is a compliment - the needs of the navy, he's bright (they only select those who have a chance to succeed for NUC school which isn't everyone). But if not he should find out what he needs to work on - was this the proverbial stationed on a weather buoy outside Fairbanks / flying rubber dog**** cargo from Hong Kong, or is this the compliment we think it is - seeing his high capability and putting it to good use for the betterment of our country - I don't need to know - but I think he and you would benefit/ maybe find peace if he steps up, asks the direct questions, and confirms. I would bet this was just big navy doing something outstanding - pulling someone who said they'd be willing to do a job most would fail at, because he said he would do it as one of his choices, and he's the elite who actually can succeed in that role.

Good luck, hope you get some answers/ peace, and congrats that your son is talented enough to be pulled for this service.
 
... Also how did he do on his Aviation Selection Test Battery (ASTB-E) - any gaps there? How is his vision? Again just things to look at to better understand.

Hope this all helps.
 
ProudDad17 said:
It all comes down to the needs of the Navy. The Navy never seems to be short of people who want to fly, but filling nuclear positions, both above and especially below the water seems to be a challenge. It takes a certain aptitude for the math and physics required to be successful in nuke school and your son must have shown an aptitude for that. For what it's worth, your DS would not be applying his education in aerospace engineering as a pilot or NFO. there are plenty of people with economics, political science, computer science, etc degrees who become aviators. As a parent of someone who was selected for SWO(N) and wanted it, I hope your DS can embrace it and become excited for the opportunity.

There are sometimes opportunities to switch warfare communities, but they seem to be rare. From what I have read, the officer first needs to earn their warfare pin in their assigned community; they need to be a top performer in their assigned community and the community they want to transfer to has to have a need for them. The assigned community has to agree to release this top performer and the receiving community has to agree to accept them.

Admiral Sands, the commander of NSTC, is an example of this. He was assigned SWO out of USNA, but wanted Special Warfare/SEAL. He was able to successfully transfer and become a SEAL.
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i didnt realize Sands was a SEAL. wow.
 
Thanks so much to everyone for these great responses. I feel much better informed now about this assignment now and his path in the Navy. Although he may have been "Nuke Drafted" (never heard that one before), it seems this is more of a compliment to his academic standing. He is a natural leader and has accepted that he wont fly for the Navy but will apply himself wholly to his SWO(n) position. Having a Nuclear Engineering degree on top of an Aerospace Engineering degree isn't to bad either.
 
With his sub bonuses he can take flying lessons and get his PPL, instrument rating, etc. No, not the same as wearing wings of gold, but if flying is an itch for him, he’ll find a way to scratch it.

One of our USNA sponsor mids came to USNA completely focused on Navy air to astronaut. Astro major with enough classes in aero to just miss a double major, ranked in the lofty single digits in the class. Mapped out a path through Navy air selection, jets, test pilot, astronaut, if he could make it happen. Got his PPL in HS, was in Navy Flying Club and got more ratings. Did summer internships at NASA instead of leave blocks.

Then, he had his pre-comm physical 2/c year and was DQed for Navy air. Sub community snapped him right up. He grieved the loss of his dream - all five stages - and has gone on to success as a submarine officer. He owns his own small plane now. Rough introduction to how life can slither away from a plan.
 
In general, does one select nuke and then splits between swo or sub, or select swo and then split between traditional and nuke?
 
@justme
Three choices: Sub, SWO, SWO nuke.

Sub selectees head straight to nuke training pipeline, about 2 years, then boat.
SWO selectees head right to ship, qualify for SWO pin, continue on SWO career path.
SWO nukes head right to ship, qualify for SWO pin, then go to nuke training pipeline, then nuke SWO career path.
Google “Navy Surface Warfare Nuclear Officer career path,” or sub in other warfare community, and you will often find the navy.mil or navy.com (recruiting website) career flowchart.

Don’t over look the NUPOC path. Navy Nuclear Power Officer Candidate program, highly competitive, civilian college essentially paid for, off to OCS then nuclear path. Good fit for some people.
 
With the length of training required for the nuke pipeline, I am surprised there is no extension of the active duty service commitment required. Particularly for SWO(N), it seems like by the time you earn your SWO pin and complete nuke training, your commitment is almost done. I suppose that there is no extended commitment is a reflection of the difficulty in finding qualified people interested in this path as it is.
 
For SWO nukes, I think it’s about 18 months or so until they get SWO pin, then they leave ship early. Their nuke pipeline is nuke power school then prototype, but no submarine officer basic course.
 
Capt MJ said:
@justme
Three choices: Sub, SWO, SWO nuke.

Sub selectees head straight to nuke training pipeline, about 2 years, then boat.
SWO selectees head right to ship, qualify for SWO pin, continue on SWO career path.
SWO nukes head right to ship, qualify for SWO pin, then go to nuke training pipeline, then nuke SWO career path.
Google “Navy Surface Warfare Nuclear Officer career path,” or sub in other warfare community, and you will often find the navy.mil or navy.com (recruiting website) career flowchart.

Don’t over look the NUPOC path. Navy Nuclear Power Officer Candidate program, highly competitive, civilian college essentially paid for, off to OCS then nuclear path. Good fit for some people.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
DS was discussing Nuke as an option, but I knew he wasnt wanting subs. Glad to see it is a separate choice from the beginning and not a subset.
 
I am sure I will eat crap for this, but maybe he should have done AFROTC if he wanted to be a pilot
 
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