Study law during AD?

[txfwindian]

If someone can help me answer this..

Once someone has graduated from an SA, can they attend college on their own time and dime during AD and get a law/MBA?

Thanks

 

[Capt MJ]

Yes. There are many who do distance learning or after-hours school without using their Service’s Tuition Aid program, so as not to incur obligated service time.

The challenge is to find the time, connectivity if deployed to remote operational areas, and the funds for “respectable” university programs, not diploma mills.

The key is to understand if in the case you do take TA, whether the incurred obligation runs consecutively or concurrently, with your commissioning source obligation. Within my first 3 years, I did an MS course after hours, starting right away, used TA, and completed it, because my “payback” was allowed to be concurrent with original service obligation. No additional time owed. Later in my career, I earned another at a full-time program, and owed 2 for 1, or 4 more years for a two-year program, starting after the post-grad tour.

So, research the current TA policy for your service so you understand what the current position is for concurrent vs consecutive. “Current” policy is key, as TA funding can be used as a force retention tool, more relaxed during tougher retention times, stricter when manpower is plentiful.

 

[txfwindian]

Yes. There are many who do distance learning or after-hours school without using their Service’s Tuition Aid program, so as not to incur obligated service time.

So in that case, would it need permission clearance for the unit commander/ authority?

 

[Capt MJ]

That’s for you to research with your chain of command! I don’t mean to blow you off, but much will depend on the nature of your duty. If you are performing satisfactorily, and understand your military duty (including getting sufficient rest) is your primary duty, then what you do during free time can usually be at your discretion. Policies will differ among services and commands, and you will have to do the research and legwork yourself. There is no universal answer. You may be in a school pipeline that has heavy after-hours reading and group projects, or field exercises away from connected devices.

 

[txfwindian]

That’s for you to research with your chain of command! I don’t mean to blow you off, but much will depend on the nature of your duty. If you are performing satisfactorily, and understand your military duty (including getting sufficient rest) is your primary duty, then what you do during free time can usually be at your discretion. Policies will differ among services and commands, and you will have to do the research and legwork yourself. There is no universal answer. You may be in a school pipeline that has heavy after-hours reading and group projects, or field exercises away from connected devices.

Thank you so much, I totally understand that the military duty comes first.

 

[NavyHoops]

I was like Capt MJ and pursued a Masters while on AD. I did not use TA so I could get out at the end of my initial commitment. I did not need approval. I used a local university that had a mix of in person and online classes. I was deployed for a great deal of the 22 months of was enrolled. When around I took classes on campus and then took online courses while deployed. It worked well for me. Most bases have several MBA programs with various formats; weekend courses, night courses, online and in person, etc. Every command will vary in the need for approval, how much they accommodate this and the ease of it. Every service, career field and unit is different

 

[txfwindian]

I was like Capt MJ and pursued a Masters while on AD. I did not use TA so I could get out at the end of my initial commitment. I did not need approval. I used a local university that had a mix of in person and online classes. I was deployed for a great deal of the 22 months of was enrolled. When around I took classes on campus and then took online courses while deployed. It worked well for me. Most bases have several MBA programs with various formats; weekend courses, night courses, online and in person, etc. Every command will vary in the need for approval, how much they accommodate this and the ease of it. Every service, career field and unit is different

Thank you so much.. this all helps with charting out the path.

 

[NavyHoops]

You mentioned law in your original post. I only have had one friend do this on the Navy side. They were at a shore tour with very consistent hours. They did a night program and I believe it was a 4 year program. They got out of the Navy with about a year left to complete it. Some of the lawyers on here might be able to chime in on something like this as to level of work, impact if chosen law school on your future prospects, etc.

 

[txfwindian]

You mentioned law in your original post. I only have had one friend do this on the Navy side. They were at a shore tour with very consistent hours. They did a night program and I believe it was a 4 year program. They got out of the Navy with about a year left to complete it. Some of the lawyers on here might be able to chime in on something like this as to level of work, impact if chosen law school on your future prospects, etc.

Thank you for sharing. My DD was asking these questions. I didnt have any answer, so just thought of asking if someone has any experience with it. Right now she plans to use GI bill ( after 36 months additional AD if selected to USMA/USAFA) for her law school. But as someone on other posts said things are fluid and nobody is sure how they pan out.

Thanks again for clarifications.

 

[Capt MJ]

There is another path. I am familiar with the Navy’s Law Education Program. You head to your warfare community as per normal, become a top performer, apply for the AD program that sends you to law school, fully paid, then you become a JAG. It is extremely competitive and only a handful are chosen each year. This is assuming she might be interested in being a JAG.

AF program:
https://www.airforce.com/careers/specialty-careers/jag/entry-programs/active-duty-military

Army program:
https://m.goarmy.com/jag/funded-legal-education-program.m.html

Navy:
https://www.jag.navy.mil/careers_/careers/opportunities_lep.html

 

[NJROTC-CC]

It is extremely competitive and only a handful are chosen each year.

True. For the most part, the Navy doesn't want to waste the enormous expense it has incurred in training you to be an unrestricted line officer to then help you become a lawyer when it gets PLENTY of civilian applicants for JAG Corps from recent law school grads (the legal profession is very crowded.) JAG Corps officers are for the most part Staff Corps officers with minimal Naval training, But, as mentioned above, you could probably do some of your legal study on-line while on active duty, then finish up while in the reserves. You might then be able to go back on active duty with JAG and keep you line officer shoulder boards. As an academy grad, with line experience, you would be on track to rise very fast in JAG. I worked with a guy who was a USNA grad who was in the submarine force, left the Navy, went to law school, then commissioned into the USMC and became a bird colonel in JAG and served as a Judge

 

[UHBlackhawk]

There is another path. I am familiar with the Navy’s Law Education Program. You head to your warfare community as per normal, become a top performer, apply for the AD program that sends you to law school, fully paid, then you become a JAG. It is extremely competitive and only a handful are chosen each year. This is assuming she might be interested in being a JAG.

AF program:
https://www.airforce.com/careers/specialty-careers/jag/entry-programs/active-duty-military

Army program:
https://m.goarmy.com/jag/funded-legal-education-program.m.html

Navy:
https://www.jag.navy.mil/careers_/careers/opportunities_lep.html

This is a program available to all the services. As pointed out, it's selective but they do want some officers with an understanding of what it is like to be a line officer. I know aviators, armor officers and infantry officers in the Army who were picked up for the program. I'm not sure about USNA, but USMA also has a law major. It's not a law degree but an undergraduate law major. Most of the instructors are JAG officers who are sent to Columbia University for an extra year of education before they teach.

 

[txfwindian]

Thank you all for your incredible inputs and suggestions

 

[Casey]

I would add that like Capt MJ mentioned, a huge part of deciding to pursue your graduate degree part time while AD needs to be how well you can balance it with your day job. I was very gung-ho to start my graduate program immediately after graduation. A few of mentors strongly cautioned me to wait until after flight school and after I had arrived to my first duty station and got my feet wet before I made that decision. I’m glad I did, because while I think I could have balanced both, it also potentially could have distracted me while I was figuring out my role as a junior officer and I wouldn’t have got as much out of the schooling as I’m hoping to.

Now as a junior captain, I’m starting my graduate program this fall as I’m much more comfortable with what time requirements the Army needs from me to be successful. Depending on how long you would like to stay in as well, there are a number of opportunities where the military will pay you to go full time to get your degree. You get the time to fully focus on your program and the opportunity to attend well respected universities with civilian counterparts that will help to broaden your world view and make you a better critical thinker. Timing won’t work out for me because of how I’m tracking within my branch, but it’s a commonly pursued broadening option for many senior junior officers. I’ve had three or four classmates picked up for FLEP (the law degree program mentioned above) and they’re all attending highly rated law programs that should set them up for success during and after the Army in law. First priority though is always do well at the job at hand. It sets up opportunities down the road.

 

[Capt MJ]

Wise words!

 

[txfwindian]

I would add that like Capt MJ mentioned, a huge part of deciding to pursue your graduate degree part time while AD needs to be how well you can balance it with your day job. I was very gung-ho to start my graduate program immediately after graduation. A few of mentors strongly cautioned me to wait until after flight school and after I had arrived to my first duty station and got my feet wet before I made that decision. I’m glad I did, because while I think I could have balanced both, it also potentially could have distracted me while I was figuring out my role as a junior officer and I wouldn’t have got as much out of the schooling as I’m hoping to.

Now as a junior captain, I’m starting my graduate program this fall as I’m much more comfortable with what time requirements the Army needs from me to be successful. Depending on how long you would like to stay in as well, there are a number of opportunities where the military will pay you to go full time to get your degree. You get the time to fully focus on your program and the opportunity to attend well respected universities with civilian counterparts that will help to broaden your world view and make you a better critical thinker. Timing won’t work out for me because of how I’m tracking within my branch, but it’s a commonly pursued broadening option for many senior junior officers. I’ve had three or four classmates picked up for FLEP (the law degree program mentioned above) and they’re all attending highly rated law programs that should set them up for success during and after the Army in law. First priority though is always do well at the job at hand. It sets up opportunities down the road.

Thank you so much for sharing your personal experience

 

[Casey]

Wise words!

I would be nowhere without the mentor ship I’ve received over the last decade. Current me laughs and is amazed at some of the patience my mentors have had with me, nudging me the right direction. I’m not smart enough to come up with any of this on my own

 

[Capt MJ]

Just pass it on. I owe a huge debt to my mentors when I was a JO!

 

[Old Navy BGO]

The Law Education Programs are great....one of the pilots in my squadron got picked up for LEP, went to University of Chicago law school (with full Navy LT pay and allowances) and then got picked up for an MBA program along the way. That's one of the things that got me thinking about going to Law School... I applied for LEP and was the second alternate the last year I was eligible, so I got out and went to law school on my own.

Some of the lawyers on here might be able to chime in on something like this as to level of work, impact if chosen law school on your future prospects, etc.

Hoops has a good point. Sure, going to law school on an intermittent, night school basis between your operational commitments is probably possible...but your military job comes first, and you get out of law school what you put into it. Law professors aren't going to cut you any slack because you had the mid-watch the night before (and in fact, used to prey on those that were unprepared ...I suspect even law school has gone the way of kindler and gentler). Credentials (school selection and class rank) are really important if you want to work at the BIGLAW firms , or even inhouse with some major corporations, so you will be giving up opportunities if you try to get through law school while on active duty.

Finally, this is the second thread in just a few days focusing on grads trying to set themselves up for their next career. I truly hope that this is not indicative of candidates , current cadets and midshipman, or recent grads viewing a Service Academy as a stepping stone rather than an opportunity to serve. Of course, I recognize that not everyone is going to serve a 20+ career (I didn't), but during the early stages in your career, you should have an open mind about the future and focus on being the very best officer you can be ... There is plenty of time to worry about follow on degrees and careers. I know it may not seem like when you are 22 and just starting out, but those 5-7 years as a Junior Officer may well be the most fun and rewarding times of your professional career. I look back (almost 30 years now), and wish I could be back flying as a P3 crew in Iceland again !

 

[txfwindian]

The Law Education Programs are great....one of the pilots in my squadron got picked up for LEP, went to University of Chicago law school (with full Navy LT pay and allowances) and then got picked up for an MBA program along the way. That's one of the things that got me thinking about going to Law School... I applied for LEP and was the second alternate the last year I was eligible, so I got out and went to law school on my own.



Hoops has a good point. Sure, going to law school on an intermittent, night school basis between your operational commitments is probably possible...but your military job comes first, and you get out of law school what you put into it. Law professors aren't going to cut you any slack because you had the mid-watch the night before (and in fact, used to prey on those that were unprepared ...I suspect even law school has gone the way of kindler and gentler). Credentials (school selection and class rank) are really important if you want to work at the BIGLAW firms , or even inhouse with some major corporations, so you will be giving up opportunities if you try to get through law school while on active duty.

Finally, this is the second thread in just a few days focusing on grads trying to set themselves up for their next career. I truly hope that this is not indicative of candidates , current cadets and midshipman, or recent grads viewing a Service Academy as a stepping stone rather than an opportunity to serve. Of course, I recognize that not everyone is going to serve a 20+ career (I didn't), but during the early stages in your career, you should have an open mind about the future and focus on being the very best officer you can be ... There is plenty of time to worry about follow on degrees and careers. I know it may not seem like when you are 22 and just starting out, but those 5-7 years as a Junior Officer may well be the most fun and rewarding times of your professional career. I look back (almost 30 years now), and wish I could be back flying as a P3 crew in Iceland again !

Great to hear your story and input.. thank you so much.