USAFA vs DUKE Rotc?

[NinoBaldacci]

Just to add my 2 cents. I'm a USAFA grad. I did the five and dive after my commitment was up. I went into USAFA thinking I would fly and do 20+ years. I then went to pilot training, but was unsuccessful. Fortunately, I was retained and retrained into another career field that, while I enjoyed, was not something I wanted to do for 20 years. When I started looking for work in the corporate world, I struggled a little. It was partially my fault as an MSS degree is not widely marketable, and the way that the military tells you to measure success in performance reports does not equate well to what corporate wants to see on a resume, so I had to learn how to effectively communicate my experience. The other part of my problem was that a lot of recruiters do not understand military experience. Some companies are better than others depending on how much work they do with the DoD's SkillBridge program.

The company (for perspective appx 3K employees/$4B annual revenue) that I ended up getting a job with ultimately did not hire me for my military experience, but because I was able to sell myself on the soft skills that I had acquired during my time in the military (i,e. communication, management, problem solving). Even then, they put me through a trial internship program and I had to work my tail off to learn everything in 2-3 months that my peers had 2-3 years to learn.

Based of my perception, the grads you hear about landing C-Suite after they leave the military are few and far between. They may be able to work up to that level one day, but it is not overnight unless you go to T10 MBA program so you can pivot your career to work for some start up.

All of this being said, I would not trade my time at USAFA or in the Air Force for anything. I went to USAFA at a time where I needed structure and discipline in my life, and they gave me that. The best friendships I have were made at the Academy and during my time on AD. I have life experiences that my co-workers will never experience and won't fully understand even though I tell them all the stories time and time again. However, I do think that USAFA (and most colleges at large) are guilty of playing up the roles/jobs that their graduates have in life in the military.

I think the thread may have derailed a little, but I hope my perspective helps somebody. The military isn't forever. Injuries happen, force reduction happen, AFSCs aren't what you thought they would be, less desirable assignments never end, and families need more stability than the military can provide. Even as a senior in high school, you need to think about what's next. What's next after college, whether that be USAFA or ROTC? What's next after the military? It is a lot to think about when you're that young. Mike Tyson said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." This is one of my favorite quotes because it is a constant reminder to think about what I need to be doing next to prepare for my future.

 

[D.Wall]

What an incredibly helpful thread that covers almost all bases - from school comparisons to ROTC drop rates to post-usafa jobs and the public perceptions of usafa. We truly enjoyed reading all posts. Thank you all and a special thanks to all who took the time to elaborate. My son is just one fish in a huge pond but I know he’s not the only one and this thread will undoubtedly help more kiddos out there. God bless!

 

[Capt MJ]

There are plenty of companies who actively look for service academy graduates to hire, as evidenced by the Service Academy Career Conference events, which are regularly attended by Fortune 500 companies (and not just defense contractors), with booths staffed by SA grads and other vets. There is no shortage of recognition for that background.

Service Academy Career Conference

sacc-jobfair.com

SACC has had to go virtual in the last year, but having attended these with two different employers, neither of which are DOD contractors, I can testify to the competition for this talent pool. You can dig around the website for past SACC reports.

https://sacc-jobfair.com/schedule/2021%20Feb%20Virtual%20SACC%20Event%20Report.pdf

Whether from an SA, ROTC unit or other commissioning source, former military officers bring leadership, experience in high-pressure operating conditions, resource management, 24/7 work ethic, maturity developed with responsibility for people and things in situations never experienced by civilians, strategy/tactics/analytics skills, a sense of mission, an orientation to servant leadership, adaptability to geographic moves and new roles, a security clearance, likely a healthy lifestyle, and many more attributes.

In short, neither our USAFA grad or Duke AFROTC grad will be found wanting by the job market, and both will find it not too difficult to get into top-tier post-grad programs.

Many of our USNA sponsor mids got into undergrad Ivies, Stanford, MIT, other glowing names, but chose to come to USNA because they wanted the all-around military professional development and exposure to the wide range of senior military and govt officials who come to USNA as guest lecturers, the daily interactions with hand-picked top-performing officers and senior enlisted personnel from all communities in the Navy, the internships (don’t need to be paid, they are already full-time military members), the inculcation of the reality of being active duty 24/7/365 member of the Armed Forces, along with a superb education. Some go on to graduate school immediately after graduation or during their senior year at USNA, or to graduate school after their first operational tour, or use their VA 9/11 GI Bill benefits - to MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Georgetown School of Foreign Service, Duke, Penn (Wharton), other assorted Ivies and big-name schools, in engineering, IT, foreign affairs, pure science, business. Not to mention the ones who go the med school route…

 

[3rdinf]

DS1 chose USAFA over ROTC at Cornell or Vanderbilt because he could attend MIT later as a grad student but he could only attend USAFA now. His twin brother DS2 eschewed the SAs and ROTC because he wanted to become a physician quicker. Now DS2 is trying to decide between full rides at Washington & Lee and U Chicago. His deciding factor? Easier to be a programmer at VMI (literally adjacent to W&L) than at Illinois Tech (cross town from U Chicago). Sometimes I shake my head at the workings of the teenage brain but as they have both said to me in the past: Dad I’m building a life not a resume.

 

[Dad_2024]

If non-pilot post military career is any consideration, as a CEO myself I can let you guess how the resumes are sorted when the degree listed is Duke vs AFA.

Thinking alphabetically by day of the week received?

 

[Candidate_Dad]

My DD had to decide between USAFA, USNA, an Ivy, and a top tech school, had that type I AFROTC scholarship, which is at least as hard , if not harder, to get than admission to the 4 schools listed.

The biggest long term advantage of USAFA in my opinion is the bonding/friendships. When you put a class through a lot of crazy hardship, some productive, but at least some "toughness" for the sake of proving toughness, it cements human relationships together.

Down sides are injuries and the opportunity cost of what you could be doing with the 30% of your time at a SA that may be used on activities that don't actively help you achieve your goals.

30%? 20%? You have to figure that number for yourself. But certainly, there's a few more push-ups to do and parades to march in at a SA, or maybe a special team that is prestigious and "all-in" that takes 1000 hours, when you'd really like to devote 500 hours to it and 500 hours toward another goal, like learning a language or joining the robotics team.

And the academics of a SA are top 15%, maybe close to top 10%.

She chose the AFROTC Type 1 because:
1) Academics at school chosen are top 2% or better
2) Classmates at SA have avg ACT of about 30.5, where she's going it's 35. That's a crude measure, but it is meaningful. Elite schools like Duke have more than just an edge over academics at a SA they are a level above.
3) SAs build character, but my DD has a great character, and I believe her character after 4 yrs of AFRTOC will be as great as after a SA.
4) 1 yr less commitment. Either she wants to transition to civilian life, which means 1 more year of adding $60k+ to her income, OR she stays in AF. If you stay in AF, end of contract time is negotiating time!
5) SUMMERS -- at an elite school like Duke, there are many summer internship opportunities, PAID. Every year, she will apply to tons of those at her school and she was also apply to the AF offerings, like Project Go! Then she can pick the best thing that comes up each summer.
6) Diversity over 8 years -- AFROTC is 20% military for 4 years , then 100% military for next 4 years.
7) Less injury -- AFROTC is much less physically demanding, yet she can join a sports club or her Div 3 sports team and go all out on some sports. But she gets to control her schedule more, and less chance of real injuries that happen with all the unusual stress tests military does to you.

As for Yale cutting more than half its EAs -- I looked into that a bit and it's a shock. But, it also seemed that many of them were non-STEM. Type I means your kid has to be STEM, so this may not apply to you. Ivy's had an automatic promotion last 2 years than converted all type 2 and 7 to type Is. It looks to me like what happened at Yale was some History majors (impossible for type I) got cut. But, I do think this means the AF paid $100,000+ for 2 years of scholarship, then cut them, meaning they have to pay the next 2 years (- the fin aid they will now get), but have no 4 yr service commitment. If they really want AF, then I'm sure they will find a way, although it may take an extra year.

I have been persuaded that my DD will be just as valuable to the AF, if not more so, coming from her top tech school than from USAFA.

good luck!

Our dd is a now recognized freshman at USAFA. If she wants Air Force I’d definitely push USAFA. There’s an academy vs non academy culture. Those who didn’t attend USAFA are looked upon differently.

 

[JP51]

I tried to get my point across without taking it quite that far but that is what I was getting at. USAFA is an amazing accomplishment and school, it just doesn’t have the reputation of a West Point or Annapolis that SOME CEOs “might” be familiar with, not to mention the A list schools pointed out previously. It’s just something candidate should consider if offered an appointment while also having a ROTC offer to a top tier, elite University.

Nothing against you or your opinion here, but I find it funny how many Americans don't know the AFA yet people from other countries know very well what the school is and actually admire it. I thought Americans should know their own schools better than some random civilians across the globe.

 

[BuckeyeDad20]

Our dd is a now recognized freshman at USAFA. If she wants Air Force I’d definitely push USAFA. There’s an academy vs non academy culture. Those who didn’t attend USAFA are looked upon differently.

I read your statement to suggest that within the USAF, AFROTC and OTS are looked upon differently by USAF and/or the people in it and suggest that it is a negative view. Please let me know if I read that wrong.

My experience was that people didn't care and often didn't know an officer's commissioning source. If you pressed me, I would say that people generally found USAFA grads to be a little more helpless about life and a little more arrogant than ROTC grads at LTs. My environment was dominated by civilians and contractors though so your experience may differ. AFROTC produces more officers than USAFA so its not as if USAFA grads outnumber AFROTC grads either.

 

[a400831]

I see this classic debate all the time on this forum. You can look at my post history to see a breakdown of the unique strengths both commissioning sources have (edit: https://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/afa-vs-rotc.67868/post-670995) link for the lazy. TL;DR version, both are equal.

A little about me: I am an 11F who has been flying for a little bit now. I have been stationed on several continents, done my time in the CAP over Iraq and Syria, and have a little experience under my belt.

Other people on this thread who say "People who don't go to USAFA are looked at differently" are 100% wrong. In the Air Force, absolutely no one cares about commissioning source. If they do care, the community instantly dislikes them and quickly shows them the door. Elitism doesn't fly in combat. I don't care if you have a degree from Harvard or a degree from Derek Zoolander's School for Kids Who Can't Read Good. I only care if you can stay visual with me, be in formation, and shoot your sort going to the merge.

When I leave the Air Force, my resume is going to be filled with my flying achievements, the projects I've managed, the deployment impacts I've made, and the leadership experiences I've gained. The college I went to is a small footnote that is hardly worth the space it takes on the paper.

If at the end of your career, your greatest accomplishment is "I went to school X", then you have a very large problem.

 

[2018DAD]

DS attended to be the best AF officer he could be: USAFA+ commitment (pilot) was not a means to an end, it was the END!
Currently FAIP at ENJJPT. Goes to work everyday with a smile, grin, and a mustache!! Mission not the money! Competence is more important than the name on the sheepskin. a400831 has it right, its the deliverables not the talkables!

 

[Elcid93]

What an incredibly helpful thread that covers almost all bases - from school comparisons to ROTC drop rates to post-usafa jobs and the public perceptions of usafa. We truly enjoyed reading all posts. Thank you all and a special thanks to all who took the time to elaborate. My son is just one fish in a huge pond but I know he’s not the only one and this thread will undoubtedly help more kiddos out there. God bless!

D. Wall - I'm curious - which did he pick? I'm asking based on the struggle that my twins just went through. Both were accepted to Yale and Duke. Both had 4 yr NROTC scholarships and both were appointed to USNA. My son also appointed to West Point and my daughter to USAFA. Lots of praying and decisions. Tough ones.

 

[Echodriver]

Not arguing your opinion, which is very valid, arguing the general opinion of corporate America. An appointment to AFA is very prestigious, no doubt. But at the end of the day it’s far harder to get accepted by Duke than get an AFA appointment. Just facts.

interesting... I graduated from an elite civilian school. Didn’t have the academic chops to get into an academy out of high school but I did have an exceptional fastball!

 

[FØB Zero]

Hello everyone,
I thought I'd ask wisdom from like minded folks. My son has an appointment to USAFA and also received the Type 1 AF Rotc scholarship to Duke University. We asked a couple of younger usafa alumni what they would pick - they say if given such choice, they would pick Duke for the civilian side of it & bc duke is as prestigious as usafa (they're proud usafa alumni btw). Hwr, I'd like to ask older, more mature folks to weigh in. Both options are great, just looking for wise counsel on what's best in the long run. Have a great day!

I am in the EXACT same situation as you but for Army. I have decided to do ROTC at Duke for my first year and see how I like it bc I can transfer/reapply to USMA if I feel my heart still belongs there this next year. We will see how it goes...!

 

[D.Wall]

D. Wall - I'm curious - which did he pick? I'm asking based on the struggle that my twins just went through. Both were accepted to Yale and Duke. Both had 4 yr NROTC scholarships and both were appointed to USNA. My son also appointed to West Point and my daughter to USAFA. Lots of praying and decisions. Tough ones.

I am in the EXACT same situation as you but for Army. I have decided to do ROTC at Duke for my first year and see how I like it bc I can transfer/reapply to USMA if I feel my heart still belongs there this next year. We will see how it goes...

I am in the EXACT same situation as you but for Army. I have decided to do ROTC at Duke for my first year and see how I like it bc I can transfer/reapply to USMA if I feel my heart still belongs there this next year. We will see how it goes...!

The application process for the academies seems much harder (I.e. senator nomination)

 

[FØB Zero]

The application process for the academies seems much harder (I.e. senator nomination)

Yes. True, but I have heard reapplicants have a huge leg up. (Especially if they do well in first year of Ivy)

 

[D.Wall]

D. Wall - I'm curious - which did he pick? I'm asking based on the struggle that my twins just went through. Both were accepted to Yale and Duke. Both had 4 yr NROTC scholarships and both were appointed to USNA. My son also appointed to West Point and my daughter to USAFA. Lots of praying and decisions. Tough ones.

It's like a ping pong game everyday.

 

[D.Wall]

interesting... I graduated from an elite civilian school. Didn’t have the academic chops to get into an academy out of high school but I did have an exceptional fastball!

In terms of pure acceptance rate, sure. Schools like Duke will naturally have tens of thousands of students applying who send out 20+ applications in the hopes that one works out. But it takes a special type of student, not just one who takes the highest AP classes and tries to beef up their resume with family-connected internships and whatnot, to pursue and receive a service academy appointment. Not to mention the extra level of grit shown if you make it to graduation.

From our experience, usafa is much harder to get in than Duke. For Duke u need academics, volunteering extra curricular activities, good act/sat scores and lots of $. For usafa, add fitness test, physical/vision tests, & a senator nomination (the latter is competitive particularly when you are from middle class non military family w/ no political connections

 

[Brotherram]

I guess my first question is "What does your DS want to major in?" My DS wanted to pursue a Cyber Security degree - when he compared the service academies "cyber" programs (mostly Computer Science majors) with other "civilian" options, the academies didn't stack up. He will graduate in four years with a Masters in Cyber Security (accelerated program). He is on a four year AROTC scholarship. He intends to do his four years then make a decision. I think in his case, he is tracking. He is happy with the AROTC program he is in and with the school. So as we used to say in the Inspector General world "it depends". The USAFA is a fine school - I was born there, but it is not for everyone and in some cases it is not the best academic experience for certain majors. You get the benefit of the academy networking system, but if your DS is looking at doing four/five and then getting out, well the network will help, but won't have that much influence on his short career. It boils down to "what does he want to do and which school is going to satisfy his "five year plan" goals?"

 

[Elcid93]

It's like a ping pong game everyday.

Hmmm. May 1st has come and gone. Did he not have to commit?

 

[NavyHoops]

I know May 1st has come and gone, but I write this for those lurking who have future decisions.

The bottom line is picking the school where one will thrive. You can look at all the awards, rankings, etc. of any school, but if its not the right school for that person, then none of it matters. I visited Princeton and USNA in the same month way back when. I was on the campus of Princeton for 30 minutes and knew it was not the right school for me. I would of been miserable there. A few hours at USNA and I had found my place and my people. I know with COVID these kinds of visits have been tough, but hopefully they are retuning. For some, the military 24x7 world of a SMC or SA is a nightmare. For others its an environment they thrive in. The USAF definitely has some uniqueness with the ROTC scholarship being a 2+2. Also with USAFA having more pilot slots is another factor. These should all be factored in, if considering both options. If accepting an ROTC scholarship, it must be discussed what happens "if". "If" can be a number of things to include not getting selected for field training, injury drop, GPA drop, don't like ROTC, conduct drop, or any of the other things that can happen. Is there a plan to how school will be paid for if any of these happen? This is a family discussion and as we all know the price tag at an Ivy, Duke, Vandy, etc. is no small amount.

I could spend hours on this topic and about the post-military part, alumni networks, degrees, resumes, etc. but I won't. Bottom line, seek what makes you happy and where you will thrive. That is the place where you will become the best prepared for life as a young officer.