West Point sued over affirmative action admissions

[mike1979]

The benefit is that the Service Academies gain a "shot" at more outstanding candidates who otherwise would not have known of the opportunity.
From almost the earliest founding of our academies, the NATION chose to try to get some geographic diversity which is one of the reasons for the Congressional nomination system. It would be fabulous if somehow the Academies could know in advance which 1200 or so people they wanted and ONLY send them an immediate LOA so that no other potential applicants would get their feelings hurt by being rejected. Of course there would be constant loud cries of objection as to why some were picked and others were not which is shockingly similar to what we hear under this system where applicants SELF-SELECT to APPLY to the academies.
In my and many other people's opinions, the opportunity is incredible and it would be nice if it "sold itself" but it turns out that if we did not "awareness raising", we might have a much smaller and less diverse applicant base and leave many VERY qualified folks who never hear or consider the SAs to go to "Whatsamatta U" or other institution. From my personal experience of over three decades in uniform, the Navy and nation would not be well served by keeping our applicant base low. Clearly your vast experience is different so we'll have to agree to disagree.

I would say that with the current admissions timeline the whole process negatively impacts ED choices for the applicants that don’t get selected. Perhaps the whole process should be shifted by 3-6 months so that academies get their best of the best candidates and everyone else can apply to ED where they want without the undue stress.

 

[A1Janitor]

I would say that with the current admissions timeline the whole process negatively impacts ED choices for the applicants that don’t get selected. Perhaps the whole process should be shifted by 3-6 months so that academies get their best of the best candidates and everyone else can apply to ED where they want without the undue stress.

ED affects other 2nd options as well. The system is fine - it gets good, qualified candidates

 

[OldRetSWO]

I would say that with the current admissions timeline the whole process negatively impacts ED choices for the applicants that don’t get selected. Perhaps the whole process should be shifted by 3-6 months so that academies get their best of the best candidates and everyone else can apply to ED where they want without the undue stress.

You might find this shocking but my #2 son never applied ED or EA to any school, he was really well qualified and went regular decision in addition to his NROTC and USNA applications. USNA appointed him the first week in December and he did extremely well there.

Some candidates REALLY want to serve and that outweighs the perceived benefit of ED. I've had many highly motivated
candidates over the years who also didn't seem to have a need for ED. It's a question of priorities. If the need for ED
is stressing your son then maybe ED is right for him.

 

[A1Janitor]

You might find this shocking but my #2 son never applied ED or EA to any school, he was really well qualified and went regular decision in addition to his NROTC and USNA applications. USNA appointed him the first week in December and he did extremely well there.

Some candidates REALLY want to serve and that outweighs the perceived benefit of ED. I've had many highly motivated
candidates over the years who also didn't seem to have a need for ED. It's a question of priorities. If the need for ED
is stressing your son then maybe ED is right for him.

My son only applied to USNA - that is where he wanted to go. Had he decided to apply to the top schools as a second choice - he would not have done ED. He was confident enough in his resume where ED wouldn’t have mattered.

 

[gniyji]

Competitiveness of civilian college applications are much narrowly defined --- maybe narrowly focused academics. An applicant may be very well competitive for HYPSM but not for SAs.

DS just came back from USNA CVW. He was so impressed by the midshipmen he met there. "They are the kind people I really want to be with !" --- All of his three roommates (midshipmen) were not admitted USNA directly from high school.

 

[mike1979]

My son only applied to USNA - that is where he wanted to go. Had he decided to apply to the top schools as a second choice - he would not have done ED. He was confident enough in his resume where ED wouldn’t have mattered.

What separates me from you and many others who just replied is that I didn’t grow up in United States or went to college here or anywhere else for that matter, nor do I have military service experience that opens up possibilities to other nominations sources. Think of me as the first generation American in your family. Therefore I have to learn the process really quickly and it needs to work on the first try.

 

[mike1979]

Competitiveness of civilian college applications are much narrowly defined --- maybe narrowly focused academics. An applicant may be very well competitive for HYPSM but not for SAs.

DS just came back from USNA CVW. He was so impressed by the midshipmen he met there. "They are the kind people I really want to be with !" --- All of his three roommates (midshipmen) were not admitted USNA directly from high school.

How did he like the classes there?

 

[A1Janitor]

What separates me from you and many others who just replied is that I didn’t grow up in United States or went to college here or anywhere else for that matter, nor do I have military service experience that opens up possibilities to other nominations sources. Think of me as the first generation American in your family. Therefore I have to learn the process really quickly and it needs to work on the first try.

I have no military experience either - we are in same boat. (Somehow being the son of the American Revolution doesn’t matter - my great uncles served in WWII).

My son was confident in his USNA application despite being color blind- which forces him into an extremely competitive slate for the waiver.

I didn’t learn the process - my son did it all.

 

[gniyji]

How did he like the classes there?

he went to math/chemistry classes. He liked although he had learned the subject two years ago. DS has been taking STEM elective since his junior year.

 

[Holden100]

You might find this shocking but my #2 son never applied ED or EA to any school, he was really well qualified and went regular decision in addition to his NROTC and USNA applications. USNA appointed him the first week in December and he did extremely well there.

Some candidates REALLY want to serve and that outweighs the perceived benefit of ED. I've had many highly motivated
candidates over the years who also didn't seem to have a need for ED. It's a question of priorities. If the need for ED
is stressing your son then maybe ED is right for him.

Candidates who choose ED with an ROTC scholarship in hand (or in the process of applying for one) don't want to serve less. If you've not had a child apply ED to their top choice school maybe you don't fully understand this. That's okay, but let's try to be a little less critical of those decisions.

 

[OldRetSWO]

Candidates who choose ED with an ROTC scholarship in hand (or in the process of applying for one) don't want to serve less. If you've not had a child apply ED to their top choice school maybe you don't fully understand this. That's okay, but let's try to be a little less critical of those decisions.

I'm not critical in any way. I encourage any high school student to shoot for their dreams. If the most important thing to them is School X then I think that its a great idea to go right ahead and apply ED to it.
Back when I applied, I figured out the process and did my applications without parental involvement. It was the tail end of the Vietnam war and my counselor and many teachers and peers in my school were virulently anti-military so it was pretty much all on me. In the aftermath of 9/11, my son did not face anti-military sentiment but his high school counselor was less than helpful (actually a negative) for USNA or really any upper tier university. We figured out the ED/EA stuff and made sure he understood his choices which were actually pretty easy for him.

 

[Holden100]

I'm not critical in any way. I encourage any high school student to shoot for their dreams. If the most important thing to them is School X then I think that its a great idea to go right ahead and apply ED to it.
Back when I applied, I figured out the process and did my applications without parental involvement. It was the tail end of the Vietnam war and my counselor and many teachers and peers in my school were virulently anti-military so it was pretty much all on me. In the aftermath of 9/11, my son did not face anti-military sentiment but his high school counselor was less than helpful (actually a negative) for USNA or really any upper tier university. We figured out the ED/EA stuff and made sure he understood his choices which were actually pretty easy for him.

Understood. Your previous comment implied that a kid who decides a civilian ROTC program is where they'd prefer to be is wanting to serve less than an academy did. And if I misunderstood that, my apologies. I'm glad that's not what you meant because if you spent five minutes with my eldest you'd know otherwise. I am the proud mother of a son who has worked hard in all areas for the past several years to hopefully commission next May with a degree from an amazing school. We are anxiously awaiting his service assignment, rumored to be announced next week. Good luck to all those 1/C's and to all these kids trying to make these very hard decisions.

 

[A1Janitor]

Understood. Your previous comment implied that a kid who decides a civilian ROTC program is where they'd prefer to be is wanting to serve less than an academy did. And if I misunderstood that, my apologies. I'm glad that's not what you meant because if you spent five minutes with my eldest you'd know otherwise. I am the proud mother of a son who has worked hard in all areas for the past several years to hopefully commission next May with a degree from an amazing school. We are anxiously awaiting his service assignment, rumored to be announced next week. Good luck to all those 1/C's and to all these kids trying to make these very hard decisions.

He is an old retired swo. He has much respect for your son and his path.

What he wrote made perfect sense in my situation.

 

[Holden100]

He is an old retired swo. He has much respect for your son and his path.

What he wrote made perfect sense in my situation.

And for some, it does, but not for everyone. And that's okay. And I, clearly, have much respect for the Retired SWO. My parents also served during Vietnam. So much respect. What I don't think many people fully comprehend is the admissions landscape has changed, drastically even over the past four years. Covid, test optional, the common app. Some of these schools are getting upwards of 50k or more applications. It's insane. Just my two cents that really has nothing do with the original point of this thread.

 

[OldRetSWO]

And for some, it does, but not for everyone. And that's okay. And I, clearly, have much respect for the Retired SWO. My parents also served during Vietnam. So much respect. What I don't think many people fully comprehend is the admissions landscape has changed, drastically even over the past four years. Covid, test optional, the common app. Some of these schools are getting upwards of 50k or more applications. It's insane. Just my two cents that really has nothing do with the original point of this thread.

Psst: I currently work as a college professor (Career #3) and thus I'm pretty familiar with college admissions and the thoughts of current
college students.

 

[Holden100]

Psst: I currently work as a college professor (Career #3) and thus I'm pretty familiar with college admissions and the thoughts of current
college students.

Well, doesn't really sound like it. You're talking about the experiences of your son, who most likely graduated 30 years ago. It ain't the same now, unfortunately. With much respect. Do you work at an ED school, the ones we're referencing (Ivy and Ivy plus?)? For clarity, please. And if you do work at and are involved with ROTC students, I'm sure you'd know they don't want to serve less than academy kids.

And Psst: You're previous comment about encouraging kids to go to their dream school if that's the most important thing to them wasn't lost on me. I just chose to ignore it. We're clearly not speaking the same language.

 

[nuensis]

Well, doesn't really sound like it. You're talking about the experiences of your son, who most likely graduated 30 years ago. It ain't the same now, unfortunately. With much respect. Do you work at an ED school, the ones we're referencing (Ivy and Ivy plus?)? For clarity, please. And if you do work at and are involved with ROTC students, I'm sure you'd know they don't want to serve less than academy kids.

And Psst: You're previous comment about encouraging kids to go to their dream school if that's the most important thing to them wasn't lost on me. I just chose to ignore it. We're clearly not speaking the same language.

What does Ivy Plus mean? I'm fascinated.

If a student is that torn between a civilian college and a SA, the SA is very much unbothered by their decision to go elsewhere. Adjustment to recruit those students is unnecessary.

Recruitment for officers needs to be a bit more deliberate than just picking up the students with the best college applications. I've worked with plenty of Ivy league, Stanford, MIT, whatever graduates. They're not special; they're not better. If you want a more recent assessment, there it is.

If a student doesn't want to go to USNA and can't give up their once-in-a-lifetime shot at Harvard, then fine. The Navy is not missing out on recruiting the "best" officers by letting them go.

 

[Holden100]

What does Ivy Plus mean? I'm fascinated.

If a student is that torn between a civilian college and a SA, the SA is very much unbothered by their decision to go elsewhere. Adjustment to recruit those students is unnecessary.

Recruitment for officers needs to be a bit more deliberate than just picking up the students with the best college applications. I've worked with plenty of Ivy league, Stanford, MIT, whatever graduates. They're not special; they're not better. If you want a more recent assessment, there it is.

If a student doesn't want to go to USNA and can't give up their once-in-a-lifetime shot at Harvard, then fine. The Navy is not missing out on recruiting the "best" officers by letting them go.

Try google. If you're that fascinated.

I'm talking about kids who choose those schools and still choose the Navy, Army or Air Force. Read more closely.

 

[Holden100]

What does Ivy Plus mean? I'm fascinated.

If a student is that torn between a civilian college and a SA, the SA is very much unbothered by their decision to go elsewhere. Adjustment to recruit those students is unnecessary.

Recruitment for officers needs to be a bit more deliberate than just picking up the students with the best college applications. I've worked with plenty of Ivy league, Stanford, MIT, whatever graduates. They're not special; they're not better. If you want a more recent assessment, there it is.

If a student doesn't want to go to USNA and can't give up their once-in-a-lifetime shot at Harvard, then fine. The Navy is not missing out on recruiting the "best" officers by letting them go.

And just so we don't confuse anyone, Harvard doesn't offer ED. They offer restrictive early action, so no issues applying to the academies or early to any public school. You can't apply early to any other private university where you expect an early decision notification. So, not really a once in a lifetime chance, just a chance, along with roughly 61,000 other applicants as reported in their most recent data set. They accepted about 1900, but I don't see where they reported how many of those were accepted in the early action round on the data set. They did report online they had just under 10k apply and accepted 722.

 

[OldRetSWO]

Well, doesn't really sound like it. You're talking about the experiences of your son, who most likely graduated 30 years ago. It ain't the same now, unfortunately. With much respect. Do you work at an ED school, the ones we're referencing (Ivy and Ivy plus?)? For clarity, please. And if you do work at and are involved with ROTC students, I'm sure you'd know they don't want to serve less than academy kids.

And Psst: You're previous comment about encouraging kids to go to their dream school if that's the most important thing to them wasn't lost on me. I just chose to ignore it. We're clearly not speaking the same language.

<-------- First off, my son graduated from USNA this century and to be a little more specific, his graduation year is right under my name.
I'm not going to get into more specifics about my university except to say that we do in fact have an ROTC unit on campus and nothing that I've ever thought or believed included the thought that ROTC cadets want to serve any less than their Academy brethren. I don't know a single career officer who would ever believe that nonsense.