What do y’all think? RE: circadian sleep

Apologies...meant this for the off topic thread, and cannot move it.
 
Other than a couple quotes from Dr. Cordle, the author makes it sound like standing watch is the only thing officers and the crew have to do. There's still a thing called the work day. Carry out the plan of the day. "Turn to, commence ship's work" actually means going to work. Sailors and surgical residents and astronauts and young mothers have been running on inadequate sleep for millennia. This surface force instruction is a PR maneuver to soften the blow of two avoidable ship collisions which had a deeper cause than not enough shut-eye.
 
"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
Aviation has learned about fatigue over the years and implemented procedures to counter it. Still, in the military, I saw those procedures thrown out the window in the name of combat needs. Such as the time I heard a hallucinating pilot tell the crew of the aircraft ahead of them that someone was climbing on their tail. Or the time lead started to inexplicable climb while we were crossing a large swamp. In response to a query he said he was avoiding the mountain in front of him. 😳 Still, we learned from those things and tried to keep pilots on the same schedule or give them time to reset. On the airline side things are much more strict. For example, when doing a long flight we have 4 pilots rotating out every few hours and a bunk available for those who want to sleep when they aren’t “on watch”. Once we land and duty out we need a minimum amount of time to reset.
I’m sure many aboard ships have similar stories. Imaginary ships, shore lines or other things in the night.
Staying awake for 24 hours is like having a blood/alcohol level of .10. Yet in the military we seem to admire those who stay up with no sleep, even if their decision making is crap. But heaven help anyone who even thinks about bringing alcohol anywhere close to a US Navy ship.
 
No kidding. Ships require continual maintenance. It's like painting the Golden Gate bridge.
For some divisions on the ship, just the requried maintenance actions are enough manhours to keep everyone working 40 hr weeks. A few like "A Gang" (Auxiliaries Division) were notorious for this. My first division was Guns and Missiles and my gunners mates had close to full time jobs of just maintenance before even thinking about watch, working parties, etc.
 
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I read that article yesterday. All it says they are trying to do is let sailors try to sleep at a regular time every day. Not changing the number of hours working or sleeping, just trying to make it on a more consistent time schedule. If possible to do, it sounds sensible.
 
It does sound sensible but a lot of maintenance and ship's work is done topside and daylight is required and the weather decks are secured after sunset.
 
This surface force instruction is a PR maneuver to soften the blow of two avoidable ship collisions which had a deeper cause than not enough shut-eye.
This.
As a longtime SWO, I can assure you that the collisions had much more tangible causes than lack of sleep. In one, the actual dereliction of duty was really severe as the supposedly experienced leaders at two watch stations that are REQUIRED to work together did not communicate at all. The TAO who was the senior officer on watch was fully occupied with her admin message traffic instead of watching the tactical situation. None of the over a dozen folks in CIC noticed a huge ship approaching. Ditto for the bridge team. Was lack of sleep an issue? possible at a tertiary level but its way down on the list, kind of like the person who gets killed in a car accident who happened to have toenail fungus.

The other collision was largely due to an equipment/training issue. New steering system with some level of touchscreen controls of the steering gear and other elements that had not been fully documented nor proper training provided. The actual folks on watch included some crossdecked folks from another ship that had old-style controls and had NOT been trained on this type. Again, lack of sleep COULD have been an element but very very tertiary to the much larger equipment/training issues.
 
Speaking of sleep, a good slider will wake the dead regardless of time of day.
navy15.jpg
 
Gonculator, the metric ones. We’re they in that locker we were checking out a few days ago, with all the other gear?
Ah. MIDRATS. Never did so-so food taste so good.
 
I just visited this thread to post that Broadside cartoon!
 
Give a Marine grunt a 5-minute break and he will sleep for 4:30.

We take naps anytime and anywhere we find ourselves. In a truck or helo, on a tank, or laying in the snow on the side of a road. I have dozed standing up or bobbing in a landing vehicle. Pure exhaustion and the realization that you don't know when the next opportunity will come helps fuel the initiative to grab some zzz's.

Yes, there is a culture of admiring those who can go without sleep in the military, but with grunts it applies to everyone by necessity. In fact, Officers use these breaks to check on their Marines, check the map, communicate with higher HQ, and whatever. My Marines got to sleep a lot more than I did in the field. It's the nature of the job.
 
Yet in the military we seem to admire those who stay up with no sleep, even if their decision making is crap.
Sailors and surgical residents and astronauts and young mothers have been running on inadequate sleep for millennia.
I love when the Government pays PHD's to research and write reports on the obvious. How's this for a a hypothesis -- people perform better with more sleep ! Corallary, sleep is more effective when you have a normal circadian cycle ! That is way up on the "Nooooo (expletive deleted) list !

For years, we have have admired those able to "hack it" and do with as little sleep as possible. I have a daughter in grad school who thinks "all nighters" are cool. I view it as poor time management, and try to stress working smarter over working harder and longer.

I can't disagree with the suggestion that we should ensure that sailors get adequate rest, and establishing sound circadian cycles seems like a good idea, but I'm guessing this instruction isn't coming with a corresponding adjustment in manning. We've always tried to do as much as we can , with less. The manning of the LCS (we could have a whole different thread about the Little ____ Ship) ) is an example. Until they address that, I agree this is really just a feel good piece to "excuse" what was really a failure of training and leadership.
 
Give a Marine grunt a 5-minute break and he will sleep for 4:30.

We take naps anytime and anywhere we find ourselves. In a truck or helo, on a tank, or laying in the snow on the side of a road. I have dozed standing up or bobbing in a landing vehicle. Pure exhaustion and the realization that you don't know when the next opportunity will come helps fuel the initiative to grab some zzz's.

Yes, there is a culture of admiring those who can go without sleep in the military, but with grunts it applies to everyone by necessity. In fact, Officers use these breaks to check on their Marines, check the map, communicate with higher HQ, and whatever. My Marines got to sleep a lot more than I did in the field. It's the nature of the job.
When I flew the 747 crews were amazed at how my priority was sleep and how given 4 hours I could take a 3:45 nap (15 minutes to heat up a crew meal a stretch). I’d tell them I could take a nap on the hard metal deck of a UH-60 in 110 degree heat of Iraq. The cool, dark cocoon of a crew bunk with a mattress? Out right away.
Edit- In the 747-400, 1980s technology, fatigue was recognized as an issue and it had a rudimentary crew fatigue alert. If, after a certain amount there were no crew inputs on the flight deck you would get incremental alerts, starting with a flashing light, ending with an audio alarm if the crew didn’t respond.
 
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I love when the Government pays PHD's to research and write reports on the obvious. How's this for a a hypothesis -- people perform better with more sleep ! Corallary, sleep is more effective when you have a normal circadian cycle ! That is way up on the "Nooooo (expletive deleted) list !

For years, we have have admired those able to "hack it" and do with as little sleep as possible. I have a daughter in grad school who thinks "all nighters" are cool. I view it as poor time management, and try to stress working smarter over working harder and longer.

I can't disagree with the suggestion that we should ensure that sailors get adequate rest, and establishing sound circadian cycles seems like a good idea, but I'm guessing this instruction isn't coming with a corresponding adjustment in manning. We've always tried to do as much as we can , with less. The manning of the LCS (we could have a whole different thread about the Little ____ Ship) ) is an example. Until they address that, I agree this is really just a feel good piece to "excuse" what was really a failure of training and leadership.
I don’t think we are too far away from the “Starship Trooper” ability to command naps. Cadets at USMA were recently issued trackers. On some of them the COC can track quite a bit such as O2 saturation. Not sure how much of the information is currently used. I’m sure things such as sleep can be tracked. It would probably be possible to set up alerts when personnel hit a certain amount of time without sleep.
 
When I flew the 747 crews were amazed at how my priority was sleep and how given 4 hours I could take a 3:45 nap (15 minutes to heat up a crew meal a stretch).
P3's have a couple racks in the back for the Off Duty Pilot and FE. We typically flew 10+ hour profiles while deployed (plus 3 hour preflight; 1 hour postflight), so they were well used. Rest of the crew grabbed a break when they could (usually enroute and returning from Onstation time). We also had mandatory crew rest before flights, and there were weekly/montly flight hour limits (rarely reached during my time, but used to be an issue when we had Soviet boomers parked off our coast). Most of these were safety protocols developed the hard way. I will admit that we had it easier than Navy communities, but still had to keep up with our ground job, and during an extended flap (round the clock ops on a Soviet sub) the crew rest was sometimes set aside.
 
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