When is an AP course not an AP course?

[Big Ugly]

I wanted to go back to earlier threads on the Forum as to when an AP course not an AP course. I am aware of one local high school where taking four AP courses require the student to make use of a stack of textbooks 12 inches high and to actually read each chapter. Another high school minutes away in the same town, 8 of 9 AP courses did not even use a textbook but relied on two page handouts to teach a limited amount of material. Curriculum guidance administrators at this second school say they are making use of online sources and there is no need for a textbook -- but in reality their students are neither using an online textbook nor are they prepared to use a textbook. Sadly, the transcripts and grades for AP courses from both high schools will look the same. The students, teachers, and administrators know the difference between the real AP courses. The parents do not.

The Class of 2023 includes 345 (29%) from college and post-high school preparatory programs. (Class of 2023 Snapshot)

Maybe more applicants would enter straight from high school, rather than after a year of college, if their families were aware of the difference in the quality of education and could plan ahead. Or, are parents already aware and struggling to make the best of what they have?

I thought this quote from a recent article in Forbes would lend further perspective:

“Last year, the Fordham Institute published American University professor Seth Gershenson’s study of grade inflation in American high schools, which demonstrates that grade inflation is real and rampant in high schools. These are the very high school grades that colleges now tell us should be relied on in place of the SAT/ACT. In fact, so ravaged by grade inflation are our high schools today, argues Gershenson, that “two-thirds of U.S. teenagers are ill-prepared for college when they leave high school.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomlin...process-descends-into-the-abyss/#22b6e43a5b36

Thoughts?

 

[A1Janitor]

I think class rank, standardized tests, GPA, and school info can help filter out students with AP classes that aren’t really AP classes.

IIRC, students at my son’s school had to take a test at the end and pass to count the AP course.

I don’t think there is much planning ... take the hardest classes and do your best.

There is an assumption here that the ones who come from college would have gotten in from high school if the parents planned properly. Not sure that is true.

 

[Korab]

I wanted to go back to earlier threads on the Forum as to when an AP course not an AP course. I am aware of one local high school where taking four AP courses require the student to make use of a stack of textbooks 12 inches high and to actually read each chapter. Another high school minutes away in the same town, 8 of 9 AP courses did not even use a textbook but relied on two page handouts to teach a limited amount of material. Curriculum guidance administrators at this second school say they are making use of online sources and there is no need for a textbook -- but in reality their students are neither using an online textbook nor are they prepared to use a textbook. Sadly, the transcripts and grades for AP courses from both high schools will look the same. The students, teachers, and administrators know the difference between the real AP courses. The parents do not.

The Class of 2023 includes 345 (29%) from college and post-high school preparatory programs. (Class of 2023 Snapshot)

Maybe more applicants would enter straight from high school, rather than after a year of college, if their families were aware of the difference in the quality of education and could plan ahead. Or, are parents already aware and struggling to make the best of what they have?

I thought this quote from a recent article in Forbes would lend further perspective:

“Last year, the Fordham Institute published American University professor Seth Gershenson’s study of grade inflation in American high schools, which demonstrates that grade inflation is real and rampant in high schools. These are the very high school grades that colleges now tell us should be relied on in place of the SAT/ACT. In fact, so ravaged by grade inflation are our high schools today, argues Gershenson, that “two-thirds of U.S. teenagers are ill-prepared for college when they leave high school.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomlin...process-descends-into-the-abyss/#22b6e43a5b36

Thoughts?

Gershenson is right. Grade inflation is rampant. AP classes aren't the same everywhere, nor is anything else. High schools inflate grades to make the parents feel better, and to make themselves look better. This is part of the "everyone's a winner/everyone gets a trophy" world we live in. Sorry, but the the 5.0 weighted GPA's with barely a 1300 SAT score aren't because someone "doesn't test well" it a symptom of a system that rewards mediocrity. Colleges aren't trying to create a meritocracy - they are social engineering and indoctrination platforms, and the SAT is the only objective sign that their admission decisions are made on everything but merit, so they seek to subjugate it. Hell, they even tried to erase the objectivity of SAT earlier this year by replacing actual results with an adversity score. That has been back burnered, for now.

Give me a drink or two and I will tell you how I really feel.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

Grade inflation is rampant. AP classes aren't the same everywhere, nor is anything else. High schools inflate grades to make the parents feel better, and to make themselves look better. This is part of the "everyone's a winner/everyone gets a trophy" world we live in

> That's the problem.

IIRC, students at my son’s school had to take a test at the end and pass to count the AP course.

> That is the solution.

I've preached for years that for AP to have any meaning, students should have to take the test, and their grade should be tied to the standardized test. That would address inflation, but also improve the quality of teaching as schools try to improve their AP performance.

 

[A1Janitor]

Gershenson is right. Grade inflation is rampant. AP classes aren't the same everywhere, nor is anything else. High schools inflate grades to make the parents feel better, and to make themselves look better. This is part of the "everyone's a winner/everyone gets a trophy" world we live in. Sorry, but the the 5.0 weighted GPA's with barely a 1300 SAT score aren't because someone "doesn't test well" it a symptom of a system that rewards mediocrity. Colleges aren't trying to create a meritocracy - they are social engineering and indoctrination platforms, and the SAT is the only objective sign that their admission decisions are made on everything but merit, so they seek to subjugate it. Hell, they even tried to erase the objectivity of SAT earlier this year by replacing actual results with an adversity score. That has been back burnered, for now.

Give me a drink or two and I will tell you how I really feel.

As I pointed out, there are other means to test the academic record of students. They can look at the profile of the school, the SATs, etc.

While grade inflation is huge - people shouldn’t automatically assume wrong candidates got in and better candidates didn’t because of it.

My son had one of those super GPAs. There was no grade inflation.

The number 17 in his class got a 1550 on SATs. Most of the top ten were over 1450. Several IVY leaguers. # 4 went to MIT.

This class was an anomaly to be sure.

 

[Korab]

> That's the problem.


> That is the solution.

I've preached for years that for AP to have any meaning, students should have to take the test, and their grade should be tied to the standardized test. That would address inflation, but also improve the quality of teaching as schools try to improve their AP performance.

That assumes that every school teaches to the AP test - many do, some don't. Some just teach an AP level class without any consideration of the AP exam at all.

 

[brewmeist]

AP is owned by College Board, and I have mentioned in the past how I feel they are 'legal extortionists.' I agree with the posts discussing how there is no standard in the teaching of AP courses. The AP exam is the equalizer. The problem for many folks is the $95 price tag on the exam. I have paid over $1,300 the past few years between my kids in AP exam fees. Fortunately we can afford it. Many can not. There is a waiver, but even that can be too costly for people in need.

I feel there has been a surge in students taking AP courses in recent years. Many kids take as many as they can to show they are taking the hardest courses possible. I get it. But sometimes it may be beneficial not to take an AP course. My son (current plebe) wanted to take APUSH his sophomre year because that was the only AP course available to sophomores at his HS. If he took APUSH, there would be several STEM courses that we would not be able to fit in his schedule. I know he doesn't care for history and there was no way he would ever become a history major. I finally convinced him to take Honors History instead. That opened the door for him to take all the STEM classes he wanted.

 

[NJDadofDSUSMA2024Hopeful]

@Korab the adversity score thing has not been rolled back. It's happening. It just won't be compiled into one #, but same data will be there. https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-board-drops-plans-for-sat-student-adversity-scores-11566928181
Top colleges are abandoning standardized testing in a very cynical way. They are making it optional and what will happen? Kids with higher scores will submit, increasing the average score from a smaller pool.
There is definitely rampant grade inflation, which is why the recent national 8th grade testing results saw a decline. I'm not saying standardized tests are perfect...they definitely aren't. But there has to be some objective measure. And if kids are having trouble with tests and basic skills, PARENTS and school districts need to address that, not abandon testing like some are doing even in elementary school:

When the Culture War Comes for the Kids

Caught between a brutal meritocracy and a radical new progressivism, a parent tries to do right by his children while navigating New York City’s schools.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[NJROTC-CC]

there has to be some objective measure. And if kids are having trouble with tests and basic skills, PARENTS and school districts need to address that, not abandon testing like some are doing even in elementary school:

+1. Objective testing will always be relevant

 

[Korab]

+1. Objective testing will always be relevant

Relevant to who? objective testing shows what a poor job our schools do of teaching, proves that not everyone is a special snowflake, and gets in the way of colleges doing whatever the heck they want.

It's no wonder everyone in education wants to do away with it.

 

[NJDadofDSUSMA2024Hopeful]

@Korab I thought you needed a drink or two to tell us how you really feel?

 

[Capt MJ]

A long read but most assuredly thought-provoking.

 

[tycarpen]

That assumes that every school teaches to the AP test - many do, some don't. Some just teach an AP level class without any consideration of the AP exam at all.

...and then there are those that "over-teach" to the AP exam. I'm assuming this is done because teacher is tied to AP pass rates? DS got a 5 on the AP Eng Comp exam, but had to fight for a B both semesters.

 

[OldRetSWO]

Gershenson is right. Grade inflation is rampant. AP classes aren't the same everywhere, nor is anything else. High schools inflate grades to make the parents feel better, and to make themselves look better. This is part of the "everyone's a winner/everyone gets a trophy" world we live in. Sorry, but the the 5.0 weighted GPA's with barely a 1300 SAT score aren't because someone "doesn't test well" it a symptom of a system that rewards mediocrity. Colleges aren't trying to create a meritocracy - they are social engineering and indoctrination platforms, and the SAT is the only objective sign that their admission decisions are made on everything but merit, so they seek to subjugate it. Hell, they even tried to erase the objectivity of SAT earlier this year by replacing actual results with an adversity score. That has been back burnered, for now.

Give me a drink or two and I will tell you how I really feel.

When doing Senatorial Interviews, I noticed more and more very high weighted GPAs are being driven up by "fluff" while performance on the core academic courses was not very strong. Because of the large numbers interviewed, we can't spend as much time as we'd like to really deep dive on qualifications but when I see a huge mismatch between SATs and GPA, I really scrutinize the transcript and I've seen students with A grades in honors choir PLUS honors band for each year of school alongside B's and sometimes a C or two in Chem/Physics/etc while other candidates from less "accomodating" schools only have grades from academic courses.
NOTE: Don't bother accusing me of hating music or the other arts, I'm talking about them pushing up GPAs when a STEM heavy review is taking place.

 

[Humey]

I dont know if colleges and or the academies look see if the student took the AP test. And if they do, do they check if they passed or not and what was the score. Asssuming they do, if you pass the AP test, then who cares if the course had several 12 inches books or instead you got a pamphlet. The class must have done something right or they wouldnt have passed the test

 

[Korab]

I dont know if colleges and or the academies look see if the student took the AP test. And if they do, do they check if they passed or not and what was the score. Asssuming they do, if you pass the AP test, then who cares if the course had several 12 inches books or instead you got a pamphlet. The class must have done something right or they wouldnt have passed the test

AP test scores are not typically required to be submitted. Some schools list them on transcripts, some don't. If schools don't teach to the test, they aren't a reliable indicator of mastery of the subject material even if they are reported.

 

[TexasAggie204]

When doing Senatorial Interviews, I noticed more and more very high weighted GPAs are being driven up by "fluff" while performance on the core academic courses was not very strong. Because of the large numbers interviewed, we can't spend as much time as we'd like to really deep dive on qualifications but when I see a huge mismatch between SATs and GPA, I really scrutinize the transcript and I've seen students with A grades in honors choir PLUS honors band for each year of school alongside B's and sometimes a C or two in Chem/Physics/etc while other candidates from less "accomodating" schools only have grades from academic courses.
NOTE: Don't bother accusing me of hating music or the other arts, I'm talking about them pushing up GPAs when a STEM heavy review is taking place.

I'm going to disagree with and counter your "fluff" comment. Factually, making A's in music classes like Honors Band and Honors Choir have a numerically small impact on overall GPA. Typically these classes at least require the student (or musician in our case), to do a significant amount of work (read: rehearsals and performances) outside of school hours to qualify for Honors placement, and receive an A grade. Additionally, a student/musician has to have the talent to qualify for this placement: more than can be said for other "fluff" courses. There definitely are "fluff" classes that exist in every HS, regardless of the particular school district. All kids know which classes/teachers to take to shoot for those easy A's... I can tell you that Honors Music in our district is not a gimme "A"...

At the end of the day, the tape doesn't lie - knock out a high SAT or ACT score(s), make A's in whatever "fluff" or non-fluff courses you take, (oh yeah, and have fun participating in whatever interests you, even if it's choir or band) and turn in your "best-self" application. What's most important in all this is that your student/SA applicant is 100% motivated to fight in and WIN our country's wars - that's what this process is all about!!!