A Call to Action

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Sorry, but age is no excuse for such "stuff" as that open letter. Plenty of places to go for help when "one does not know where else to turn". WRONG is wrong and that open letter, in my opinion, ranks up there pretty darn high on the wrong scale. I could care less how old the writer is...a Midshipman is old enough to figure this stuff out and handle it in a professional and proper manner. The damage that can be done to Kings Point through such actions is immense...as are the problems created by the midshipmen dishonoring themselves and the Academy through their blatant disregard for their pledge and oath regarding the Honor Code. One could certainly be considered far "worse" of a violation than the other, and I would agree with that, but to excuse the later action as being "young" just will not cut it. I expect much more form the fine young MEA AND WOMEN who attend Kings Point.....as should they themselves. Yes, ACTA NON VERBA indeed.

Actually a persons age is a justifiable defense in criminal, civil and other matters so I am willing to give this young mid some leeway. The mid that wrote that post probably went to KP right out of high school and does not have the life experience to know where to turn. He/she was making a cry for help due to a love for KP. I applaud that action. I also applaud the postings of Concerned Alumni and 2012AD. Maybe KP needs a little more transparency. My daughter, who attends another service academy was barely 17 when she reported. I'll bet that you already knew that in some states you are still considered a juvenile at 16 years old. You don't gain a whole lot of life experience in just 12 months or so. I am sure that there are lots of kids at KP and other SA's that are too young to understand what to do in a similar situation. Since we don't know your age, or if you are on campus, you really can't comment on whether the mid could have turned elsewhere for guidance. I agree with the posters above. I believe that this mid was brave enough to express his/her feelings and that the honor board should not be expected to have the legal knowledge of a licensed attorney. If the school does not want the honor board to do it's job maybe it is time to disband it.

I think that we all as parents expect more from the mids and cadets that attend service academies. But if the bottom feeders in the 10% club did not break the law we wouldn't be talking about this episode. Lets not punish the whole by denying them their right to free speech due to the actions of the few.

You made the statment that "one could be certainly be considered far worse of a violation than the other." You are kidding right? Considered? There is no comparison. Burglary is a felony in the State of New York.
 
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[/B] time to disband it.

You made the statement that "one could be certainly be considered far worse of a violation than the other." You are kidding right? Considered? There is no comparison. Burglary is a felony in the State of New York.

Sorry if I did not make myself clear...was TRYING to say that the break-ins, etc. could be considered a "far worse" offense to the Honor Code than the open letter. Sorry if you missed that or if I did not make myself clear...I think we all know that "burglary is a felony in the State of New York". Thanks so much for stating the obvious.

I stand by the intent and spirit of the post I made. I hold all Midshipmen to a higher standard of conduct than "other young people"...sorry, but so it is. I believe Kings Point holds (or did) all its Midshipmen to a higher standard as well. Being a Mid involves being more mature than your peers. It's part of the life of a Mid. "Gee, they are young" is a cop out and an excuse in my book.

And just to be clear, I am the father of a KP grad and am still involved with Kings Point on a regular basis.

Now, we all know how difficult it can be to allow our children to be responsible for their own actions and to "suffer" the consequences of those actions. It's a tough teacher sometimes, but it IS the best teacher going. If parents step in the way and make excuses and continually bail their kids out of trouble...well, what do they learn? That the rules just don't apply to them. Thus, we see "challenges" to the Honor Code...anyone guess who paid for the lawyer to intervene? And, it does not surprise me one bit that the administration backed down after the lawyer's intervention. That, too, is a sign of the times and points to a lack of "honor" on the part of those who backed down and tossed the Midshipmen who made the Honor Board call to the curb. Seems lots of folks may have forgotten what it really means to have honor and courage in the face of a challenging situation.
 
Sorry if I did not make myself clear...was TRYING to say that the break-ins, etc. could be considered a "far worse" offense to the Honor Code than the open letter. Sorry if you missed that or if I did not make myself clear...I think we all know that "burglary is a felony in the State of New York". Thanks so much for stating the obvious.

I stand by the intent and spirit of the post I made. I hold all Midshipmen to a higher standard of conduct than "other young people"...sorry, but so it is. I believe Kings Point holds (or did) all its Midshipmen to a higher standard as well. Being a Mid involves being more mature than your peers. It's part of the life of a Mid. "Gee, they are young" is a cop out and an excuse in my book.

And just to be clear, I am the father of a KP grad and am still involved with Kings Point on a regular basis.

Now, we all know how difficult it can be to allow our children to be responsible for their own actions and to "suffer" the consequences of those actions. It's a tough teacher sometimes, but it IS the best teacher going. If parents step in the way and make excuses and continually bail their kids out of trouble...well, what do they learn? That the rules just don't apply to them. Thus, we see "challenges" to the Honor Code...anyone guess who paid for the lawyer to intervene? And, it does not surprise me one bit that the administration backed down after the lawyer's intervention. That, too, is a sign of the times and points to a lack of "honor" on the part of those who backed down and tossed the Midshipmen who made the Honor Board call to the curb. Seems lots of folks may have forgotten what it really means to have honor and courage in the face of a challenging situation.

Sorry about stating the "obvious about burglary being a felony in New York." I saw by your post that you live in Texas. I was not sure that you were familiar with the New York State Penal Code. Heres a good one for you that is way off topic... Did you know that certain types of burglary are a misdemanor in Texas? God bless the Texas legislature! Where else can you break into something, steal a felony amount of property and the worst that will happen to you is a year in the county jail. You can work on your foul shot at the county jail!

Sorry, back to the topic at hand.

I think that we all can agree with your last post that we should hold the midshipman to a higher standard. That is why we are all so unhappy about the offenders still being on campus! That's why this whole episode is so incredible! And just to be clear who is your "young being a cop out" comment aimed at? The mid that started this post or the three conspirators? You can't have it both ways.
 
Psychologically predictable. Though I expected better out of academy alumni.

I know that calling out someone for the medium through which they take their stand is an easy defense mechanism. Especially when you realize you would never do the same thing. Even though you are bound/were bound by the same undying code. “Well yes I suppose this midshipman is right that technically you aren’t supposed to steal, but to post it online!?! He/She obviously doesn’t understand how the world works!” And just like that you’ve waylaid your own conscience for another day.

I don’t know how many of you are experienced with “fighting corruption”, but I think most of you can at least understand this from experience: the “proper channels” and chain of command don’t take very kindly to subordinates telling them they are wrong.

No one wants his or her institution’s dirty laundry hung out for the whole world to see. Well, guess what? That’s how the world works. When a homicide occurs, the murderer’s family members don’t get to say, “Can we keep this quiet? Like just at our level? We really don’t want people to judge us on this.” Although responsibility is increasingly inconvenient these days, sometimes you have to bear the weight of your own actions and the actions of those around you. Of course, it would probably just be safer and less embarrassing if we politicked or moral-relativized our way out of this one.

You leave your wounds wrapped up for a while, and they’re going to get infected. Leave them long enough and you’ll need some serious surgery if you don’t want to wind up dead.

It’s a scary thing to see someone fight against those in charge for what they know is right, isn’t it? Especially in America. Thank God we haven’t had to deal with anything like that in our history. Like maybe somewhere around the beginning of our country. Those would have been horrible ideals to start a nation on.
 
This whole thread is a joke, from the opening statement that the FBI arrested midshipman at the Kings Point on drug charges there's no mention of this anywhere, although if you Google spice you'll see US naval academy, and the US Coast Guard acadmey. Try it yourself if anyone can back this up please post what you find if not move to other service academy board and spread fales statements there.
 
This whole thread is a joke, from the opening statement that the FBI arrested midshipman at the Kings Point on drug charges

I would perhaps suggest to you that just because it isn't in the news doesn't mean something didn't happen. Until you call Barry, Jones, Murphy, Rogers or Palmer hall home I would encourage you to consider the idea that perhaps you may not know all of the goings on of the regiment. Even when you're here you will have to accept the idea that most of the decisions you will make will be based on limited information, and probably never the whole story. Google doesn't know everything... yet.
 
This whole thread is a joke, from the opening statement that the FBI arrested midshipman at the Kings Point on drug charges there's no mention of this anywhere, although if you Google spice you'll see US naval academy, and the US Coast Guard acadmey. Try it yourself if anyone can back this up please post what you find if not move to other service academy board and spread fales statements there.

My son is one of the company officers and attended the honor board hearing. Does that satisfy you?
 
JMc0759 which board was your son on your posting history shows that you post on many of the service academy boards ? As far as Google not knowing every thing apparently the local papers like Newsday, The New York Post, The Daily News ,The New York Times, and the local paper in Great Neck know nothing either about these so called arrest . Put up the facts, names and times or move on.This is a great academy with excellent students and a dedicated staff that very few will be lucky enough to attend, with 100 % job placement or an opportunity to server and any branch of service.
 
JMc0759 which board was your son on your posting history shows that you post on many of the service academy boards ? As far as Google not knowing every thing apparently the local papers like Newsday, The New York Post, The Daily News ,The New York Times, and the local paper in Great Neck know nothing either about these so called arrest . Put up the facts, names and times or move on.This is a great academy with excellent students and a dedicated staff that very few will be lucky enough to attend, with 100 % job placement or an opportunity to server and any branch of service.

Thanks for checking into my posting history for me. I have two children at two different SA's. My spouse is a BGO for USNA. That makes three.

My son was one of the 200 or so mids that attended the honor board for the midshipman accused of burglarizing the teacher's office. Anything else you want to know?
 
This is no joke people

A joke you say Bluewater2016? Really? Do you honestly believe this is all a joke? Well I for one do not hear any of the midshipmen I know laughing.

In my earlier post I purposely did not touch upon past issues of which I have no serious knowledge. I wanted to focus on the very current issue that has the Regiment up in arms and drove this midshipman to take an ill-advised action. But, mark my words: plenty of things happen and go unreported. If requested, I will find and forward the post within the Parent’s association explaining “the rape” of a female midshipman that occurred on the grounds of the academy (written as if that was the only thing that ever happened, and it seemed to contain some “blame the victim” undertones to me), and I challenge anyone to find a newspaper account of it.

Furthermore, concerning any possible “bust,” it is also very possible that proper legal protocols were not followed by the academy in whatever happened. This was definitely the case at least one time in my personal career when the academy officials conducted what was deemed an unlawful search. The individual was expelled and chose not to fight it, but there was no chance of a criminal conviction. Also, people can be brought in for questioning, and it can appear like an arrest to people in the area, and there may not be an actual arrest. All that is just to make one point, and it is not the relevant issue in this string.

This string concerns an Honor Board decision overturned by the administration, and the decision by a midshipman to make an open post that has obviously touched quite a chord.

Also, there is a vast difference between disparaging the institution, and demanding those in charge be held accountable. In a private conversation with Admiral Greene that I had before he was fired (oh, yeah, I can not prove that either, but the Alumni Foundation seemed pretty sure about that one), I was discussing some serious issues that apparently no one else had brought to his attention before me. He was very animated about his frustration with trying to hold his subordinates accountable for their actions. He asked me to keep our conversation private at the time, but I do not see how going public now can hurt him.

For those who believe the new Commandant can come in and fix things, please recognize he can not get very far unless he also has strong leadership above him to back him up as well.

Getting back to the original point, I just received this input earlier today from a member of the Honor Board, to whom I sent the link for this forum:

“I looked at the link [to this forum]. There were some interesting responses. I do agree that if you do not know the person who wrote that letter, and the extreme circumstances how the three girls have repeatedly lied and behaved during the honor board people would be more apt to agree with the paper.

I am ashamed that something that extreme has no consequences here at KP. I’m as frustrated as [name deleted by me] seeing the behavior of midshipmen, but it’s not all the school or administrations fault. Midshipmen see other midshipmen cheat, hear about possible drug use etc but do nothing about it. The administration as well as OURSELVES are to blame for what is acceptable here at school. The Honor Board case on the other hand….the midshipmen did the right thing voting for disenrollment, the administration screwed up big time on this one!”

I know who sent this to me, but choose to protect that identity to the best of my ability as well. Also, re-read the post from 2012AD, identified as a current midshipman; who does not believe what the administration has told them.

Then, as a reference to the post by “AAA,” I have been inside climates of fear in my own life, and authorities are always shocked when the truth finally comes out. Fear is Fear. Chain-of-command is essential to good order, but every organization – even the Navy, has anonymous 800 numbers available for people who are afraid to tell the truth openly, because sometimes that chain-of-command is abused by those in power. Only when competent authorities actually understand the real problems can proper corrective action even begin to take place. This midshipman told her understanding of what happened openly and honestly. She may not have taken the care to make sure every statement would hold up to the legal scrutiny of a court of law, but I do not think she has a law degree either.

I believe the Regiment will stand behind her – if they are allowed to. If not, she is very likely to face more punishment than the midshipmen who were recommended for disenrollment in the first place. Because of her Honesty and Integrity, she will stand there and take her beating, as doled out by those who failed to uphold the Honor Code in the first place.

Again – this is definitely not a joke.
 
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I was wondering if this letter and the response were going to eventually make there way here. Sure enough I'm happy to see this board is the "go to" place for Kings Point.

Anyway, as soon as I saw this and the response I "knew" that legal action was likely threatened against the school. It is my personal opinion that because KP does not fall under DOD it is not as protected as say USNA when it comes to educational lawsuits. The school likely realized they were in a nearly indefensible position in a court of law where proof would be required. I would be interested to hear how evidence is handled and proceedings of Honor Board cases are accomplished at our sister academies. My guess is that they have some form of legal oversight.

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that this was not the correct method for a person to take in airing their grievances. The military and Academy has a chain of command: use it. There are way too many other options to take than to blast email. She also puts herself in a very precarious position of possible libel and slander because the people mentioned are easily identifiable. (maybe a lawyer can tell me I'm wrong here).

Anyway, that's all I think I'll say about this at this time. Let's try to keep this thread civil and we will likely be able to keep it. If it delves into personal attacks or starts circling the drain it is likely to be heavily edited.
 
I pray none of my statements or references are being seen as personal attacks. I am trying very hard to be precise and logical, despite being admittedly upset about this entire turn of events – especially as it relates to the existing Regiment of Midshipmen.

Concerning possible legal fall-out, I do not see it happening for a variety of reasons. Looking back at the original letter, this is the only section wherein any “libel” or “slander” could be indicated:

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“Having gone through numerous superintendents and commandants, the Academy is lacking effective leadership and direction. More often than not during my four years here, the Academy has been under the guidance of its Academic Dean and Interim Superintendent, Dr. Shashi Kumar. Dr. Kumar is a respectable man, however the consistency and transparency that should be present in the Academy’s leadership simply does not suffice. The current administration is gun shy about pulling the trigger and taking action in matters that require strong leadership and open communication.”
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Note that as of the writing of that letter, MARAD is responsible for the fact that there is a temporary superintendent (third time in three years) and a temporary Commandant (second time in three years), so if the midshipmen have a sense that there is a lack of leadership, I can not really blame them.

Now, having stated that he is a “respectable man,” and only commenting on his inability to demonstrate the high level of leadership required of a difficult situation, there is no basis for “defamation of character.”

Commenting on his leadership (or lack thereof) essentially puts the whole matter into a category that includes “public” persons. From the following web-site:
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http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Libel+and+Slander

The Court wrote that "libel can claim no talismanic immunity from constitutional limitations. It must be measured by standards that satisfy the First Amendment." Therefore, in order to protect the free flow of ideas in the political arena, the law requires that a public official who alleges libel must prove actual malice in order to recover damages. The First Amendment protects open and robust debate on public issues even when such debate includes "vehement, caustic, unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials."
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The academy itself can not sue, only Dr. Kumar could choose to personally sue, and he would have to first indicate he is not a public person. Then, the only awards are compensatory, based on the damages that resulted. Unless he loses his job over this, there are no damages, and if he does lose his job, then that would essentially validate the statement as being true, which would be the best defense of all.

Long story to get back to this: The violation of the chain-of-command is the only real issue to attack this individual on, and only the chain of command involved can choose to enforce any penalties accordingly.

The duality of this thread then is this:

- Should this individual receive a specific punishment? If so, what is appropriate?
- What is the validity of the statements regarding the Honor Board itself? Consequently, is the ability to enforce Integrity among the Regiment less important than “bigger issues?”

I for one feel that without a certainty of integrity, the value of my having graduated from this academy is so diminished it may be better to close the doors than operate a sham. I would hate to be a graduate of a defunct institution, but would hate even more to see that institution degraded so horribly.

From what I do know, from the point of view of the midshipmen, this was just about the most clear-cut Honor Board case that has occurred in a long time. When they found out their decision was meaningless, it hit them like a sucker-punch. Why did they waste all that time? Why did they put themselves on the line to tell individuals they do not belong among the Regiment, only to be told the rules they adhered to were meaningless?

I know many of these people personally. They had knots in the pits of their stomachs leading up to the actual board. They did the best job they could based on everything they believed in. Claiming that the whole thing came down to some “procedural” issues on how the board was run? I am not buying that.

I go back to my first post. The real “takeaway” here is that apparently the academy can not defend an honor board decision unless the Honor Board can be conducted at the level of a full criminal trial. This is way beyond the ability of the midshipmen there, so what is the sense of claiming some sham of a system that is allegedly self-governing?

Concerning punishment, if this individual receives anything worse than a written reprimand for violating the chain of command (which of course winds up in your “permanent record”) I will be even angrier about the “shoot the messenger” mentality it would show. The truth hurts, but problems can not be fixed unless they are at least acknowledged first.

Like 2012AD (current 1/c) referenced – fry all the bigger fish you want. But this, this goes to the very core and essence of what it means to be allowed to walk across that podium to get your degree, your license, and your commission as an officer in the armed forces of the United States of America.
 
Sunlight is the best disinfectant,” a well-known quote from U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, refers to the benefits of openness and transparency.

It would be a shame if this thread was closed using some spurious reason such as a question of libel.

The exposure of the problems at KP may be the only thing that may save it.
 
If a technicality overruled this honor board then would past honor board cases be subject to overrule as well?
 
TO CONCERNED ALUMNI and AD2012:

Do you think that the race and gender of the mids involved may have affected the school's decsion to overrule the honor board?

If so that makes this whole episode all the more sadder.

Well stated Luigi59...
 
One allowance i will give the administration is the complexity of the issue(s)

In response to the questions asked of me:

Lynpar – Any individual so affected would have to start to mount their own legal case. Anyone merely set-back would have a hard time explaining their damages. Anyone who is gone already would have to start with a desire to become re-inserted into the Regiment. Since most people do move on with their lives post-KP (yes it is possible), the likelihood of that specter is very low.

JMC0759 (and DelanoLover with your simple response) – This would be a very complex analysis related to external factors. A simple “yes” or even “no” is not really adequate.

Concerning those external factors, one can only speculate and offer opinions which may have no merit. They may also be inflammatory and non-productive. The only people who could really answer that question are the officials at the academy who made their decision.

As a purely hypothetical and speculative exercise, such factors could weigh in to the consideration of likelihood of success in a courtroom lawsuit. However, I think the fear of having to live up to the evidentiary rules of a legal trial still comes down as the biggest issue.

Consequently, and more to the real point of this thread -- going forward, the mind-set of the midshipmen is “how could we ever find anyone guilty of anything ever again – especially given the need to live to a standard that is impossible for us to live to?”

That being said, I did ask the members I know about the diversity issue. I will quote the response word for word: “The only thing missing was a gay Asian.”

Gender-wise, all three are clearly female, and the female enrollment at USMMA, considering its lofty position as the first of all the academies to accept women (1975 entrance, Class of 1978), is atrocious. Everyone who pays attention is already well aware of that. As a secondary consequence, the females I know at the academy are upset about the “backlash” they will get since, like it or not, the perception among the male midshipmen IS that the “girls” get extra breaks.

So, which one is it today?:

“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”

Or

“The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many”
 
But wouldn't the same result had happened if the m/n involved brought the technicalities of the honor board in question via legal council?
 
ConcernedAlumni-
Get your facts straight. The first class of women entered in July 1974 and those that lasted graduated in June 1978; a full four years after their entrance. If they entered in 1975 as you indicated, they would have been the first class to ever finish in 3 years regardless of gender.

Even though you may be a concerned alumni, you know nothing of what that first class of women endured unless you are among them. Making gender judgments is inappropriate as the women of past years and today still endure various forms of discrimination in many aspects at the academy as well as in the maritime industry. They just suck it up and deal with it.

Perhaps one should look into the issues surrounding the case on the basis of fact, not hearsay. How do you know that the writer has not been the beneficiary of this alleged special treatment during her tenure. Have you reviewed her disciplinary record and demerit count? Is the author an honorable M/N? Her convictions may be strong but that does not change her record at KP.

Gender aside, if the evidence presented was not adequate to "convict", then an appropriate decision was made by the administration. Apparently there were some involved in the honor board proceedings that did not excuse themselves and had personal issues with the accused that they attempted to impose upon other members of the jury. That said, the bias issues may have been enough to dismiss the entire proceeding.
 
What is a student to do?

A student is not to lie, cheat or steal (or tolerate those who do). Is that last part still in the regulations for Kings Pointers, used to be, is it still there? I know the other academies have that in what the students sign.

An alleged offense including lying, stealing and cheating was reported, and brought before the honor board. The honor board composed of peers voted overwhelmingly that the three students should be disenrolled for breaking the code on all three areas.

Kings Point is not part of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), as the other academies are under, which would have been the normal progression. What most students do not know is that being a federal academy the FBI has jurisdiction for crimes committed on the academy grounds.

In this case the chain of command did not agree with the honor board, in fact overturned the decision. Possibly there were other considerations, but I hope it was not dissolving over the fear of a lawyer or negative publicity for KP or losing funds. There must be a standard that is above all that, and it's called integrity and honesty . Let's hope that the administration's standards are high and above reproach for the sake of the academy and for the sake of the midshipmen.

Perhaps this forum was not the best or only means of getting the message out, but what is a midshipman to do? What is the chain of command that they should follow in a situation like this? Obviously there are an overwhelming number of students on campus who feel justice was not done.
There are many who feel frustrated at the roadblocks in justice being handled in this case and other cases also.

This USMMA Service Acaemy forum has a culture of giving ad hominem responses to the person who writes (in other words attack the person presenting the information rather than dealing with the actual situation). This has happened again. The person writing was attacked rather than the problem presented being the topic of conversation.

As far as being female and the minority, yes, this could be a problem. Whether that had any bearing on this decision I do not know. I do know, as I worked very closely with most of the females on campus for 6 years, that the females on campus, who are abiding by all rules and regulations, want to be considered equals with the fellows. They do not want the rules bent for females. The consequence is that all females are looked at with jaundiced and colored glasses. There are many females on campus who are outstanding and are equal with the fellows in academics and in every other area. Something like this can be looked on as a disservice to the wonderful females on campus. It's like the paper that was slipped under the dorm doors just recently. Midshipmen are to follow the code of not cheating, lying, or stealing unless you are....... Minorities, including females on campus, want to stand on their own merits and achievements, and their own high integrity of following all the regulations. They are equals and can stand on their own two feet without rules bent for them. I sincerely hope the female issue had nothing to do with this decision.

Was there another place this midshipman could have taken the complaint, or was there no other place to go? What is a midshipman to do?
 
Gender aside, if the evidence presented was not adequate to "convict", then an appropriate decision was made by the administration. Apparently there were some involved in the honor board proceedings that did not excuse themselves and had personal issues with the accused that they attempted to impose upon other members of the jury. That said, the bias issues may have been enough to dismiss the entire proceeding.

Regardless of procedural errors or any bias issues, the presupposition of "innocent until proven guilty" really exists only inside a court room.

Therefore, any decision of the honor board about a violation of the honor code is secondary to the primary question:

Did they do it, or did they not do it?

"Bias issues" cannot change the fundamental basis of logic - they either "did it" or they "didn't do it."

If it was the former, they should be expelled.
 
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