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Good lord! It's only October. DO we really need to get all these kids hyperventilating over SFT class size already!
(and yes, I know some already are).
AFROTC Field Trainng 2014
- Thread starter ERAUMattmom
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Good lord! It's only October. DO we really need to get all these kids hyperventilating over SFT class size already!
(and yes, I know some already are).Just to clarify on FT pay:
I attended Max 5 this past summer, and after our graduation, we went back to an auditorium and were spoken to by Brigadier Gen. Thomas (HOLM Center Commander) who did inform us that we (FT 2013) were the last set of cadets who would be receiving per diem pay. He said that the length of FT would be shortened (didn't specify exactly how much) and that cadets would no longer be getting per diem. He also said that to save money, the AF was looking into switching from Camp Shelby to another location closer in Alabama (this, however, wouldn't be in effect for a few more years).
I attended Max 5 this past summer, and after our graduation, we went back to an auditorium and were spoken to by Brigadier Gen. Thomas (HOLM Center Commander) who did inform us that we (FT 2013) were the last set of cadets who would be receiving per diem pay. He said that the length of FT would be shortened (didn't specify exactly how much) and that cadets would no longer be getting per diem. He also said that to save money, the AF was looking into switching from Camp Shelby to another location closer in Alabama (this, however, wouldn't be in effect for a few more years).
Correct according to what I've heard from my son - some cadets at AU are actually worried about how they are going to get from MAFB to Shelby and back this summer... Advised the son to tell them that that was the problem of the TRANSPORTATION squadron... THEN he asked how they would do it. I started to to tell him "MAGIC" then decided just to say "they'll figure it out"... I really hope the kids don't have their finger on the nuke button for a while...
You could have said well you have a thumb right? (hitch hiking)
I think that's what they were actually half afraid of... Gotta love em!
ERAUMattmom
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I am confused. My DS told me that 2 of his fellow AS200 cadets recently failed the AFOQT. Both of these cadets have rather high GPA, PFA and SAT scores. They are still actively participating in the AFROTC program with the intention of retaking the AFOQT in 6 months.
Is it up the individual Detachments whether or not to disenroll cadets that fail the AFOQT on their first attempt? DS seemed to believe that if these 2 cadets pass the AFOQT when they retake it that they would still be eligible for Field Training.
ERAUMattmom
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I believe I just found part of the the answer to my last question regarding disenrollment.
According to publication AFROTC136-2011 12 AUGUST 2013 page 85:
Apparently first-time AFOQT verbal and /or quantitative failures are not necessarily an issue. Second-time AFOQT verbal and/or quantitative failures will result in investigation for disenrollment and attendant scholarship inactivation...
and per 4.10.5
POC Selection process (PSP) The AFOQT is not a disqualifier for the POC Selection Process, but cadets awarded an EA will not attend FTU(deferred) or enlist (contract) until AFOQT qualified.
This is a bit confusing to me still..to me this is translating into...a cadet failing the AFOQT for the first time can still be awarded an EA...but cannot attend Field training until AFOQT is passed...Which would be the position that my DS's 2 friends are in???
PIMA ... Am I understanding this correctly??
According to publication AFROTC136-2011 12 AUGUST 2013 page 85:
Apparently first-time AFOQT verbal and /or quantitative failures are not necessarily an issue. Second-time AFOQT verbal and/or quantitative failures will result in investigation for disenrollment and attendant scholarship inactivation...
and per 4.10.5
POC Selection process (PSP) The AFOQT is not a disqualifier for the POC Selection Process, but cadets awarded an EA will not attend FTU(deferred) or enlist (contract) until AFOQT qualified.
This is a bit confusing to me still..to me this is translating into...a cadet failing the AFOQT for the first time can still be awarded an EA...but cannot attend Field training until AFOQT is passed...Which would be the position that my DS's 2 friends are in???
PIMA ... Am I understanding this correctly??
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Pima
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We don't know the background of the 5 cadets at one det, nor the cadets at your DS's det.
I believe the rule is they can only take it 2x, and it must be a 6 month wait between the tests. If those 5 cadets failed for the 2x time they would most likely be dis-enrolled.
The cadets at your DS's only took it 1x than that is a different story.
The problem is the AFOQT score will be used for selection, so this can they, can't they might be all moot if they are not selected.
~ If they took it in Sept., and they must wait 6 months, than March would be the earliest to update, which would already be after the board met for selection.
I believe the rule is they can only take it 2x, and it must be a 6 month wait between the tests. If those 5 cadets failed for the 2x time they would most likely be dis-enrolled.
The cadets at your DS's only took it 1x than that is a different story.
The problem is the AFOQT score will be used for selection, so this can they, can't they might be all moot if they are not selected.
~ If they took it in Sept., and they must wait 6 months, than March would be the earliest to update, which would already be after the board met for selection.
One of my good friends from HS is in that det. Said that 1 of the 5 dis-enrolled was a repeat 200 that didn't get an EA last year and the other 4 they suspected either had a low GPA, weren't active in the det, low PT scores, etc.. Also said that they knew of several other cadets that didn't pass the AFOQT in the det that are still in the program. Said they were told that if they didn't pass the first time, they would still send in FT applications, and if they got an EA it would be dependent on them passing the AFOQT the 2nd try (since the next time they're eligible to take the test will be after FT applications are due).
Pima
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It will be interesting to see how they are going to work the AFOQT portion of the EA selection board. Yrs ago it was only the AFOQT scores that they used, SAT/ACT scores could not be substituted, than they switched to not requiring the AFOQT for selection; some cadets did not take the test until spring of their 200 yr, preparing for AFSC selection. Thus, the SAT/ACT score in their records were used.
If they have gone back to they will use only the AFOQT score for selection, it is going to hurt if they busted the test. I believe 15 is considered failing, and it is a test based on a 100 pt scale. Our DS took it once as a 100 (yrs ago) and his score was 91 or 94 (can't remember).
I believe the AFOQT score accounts for 20% of the total EA score. Now add that onto a low cgpa (below the avg of 3.0) and a mediocre PFA (low 90s), IMPO it was the right thing to dis-enroll them at this point. That accounts for @50% of the score. The main reason why is the other % of the scoring would be the CoC's rec., so as you can see it is just going to keep tallying up to be a low score and a low chance for selection, especially for the 500's (2nd time 200s). In the ADAF world they are considered above the promotion board, which is an uphill battle with very few success stories because the reality is to give them the slot, somebody else would be denied that is in the promotion board zone.
~~~ They have a set number that they can allow to attend.
If they have gone back to they will use only the AFOQT score for selection, it is going to hurt if they busted the test. I believe 15 is considered failing, and it is a test based on a 100 pt scale. Our DS took it once as a 100 (yrs ago) and his score was 91 or 94 (can't remember).
I believe the AFOQT score accounts for 20% of the total EA score. Now add that onto a low cgpa (below the avg of 3.0) and a mediocre PFA (low 90s), IMPO it was the right thing to dis-enroll them at this point. That accounts for @50% of the score. The main reason why is the other % of the scoring would be the CoC's rec., so as you can see it is just going to keep tallying up to be a low score and a low chance for selection, especially for the 500's (2nd time 200s). In the ADAF world they are considered above the promotion board, which is an uphill battle with very few success stories because the reality is to give them the slot, somebody else would be denied that is in the promotion board zone.
~~~ They have a set number that they can allow to attend.
ERAUMattmom
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I believe the only sections that have a minimum to pass for AFROTC are Quantitative - 10 and Verbal - 15.
LOL .. Now it's starting to make a little more sense...My niece (now a doctor) attended the Naval Academy. She was the first female in California to be nominated to all 3 academies. A few summers ago while I was visiting her and her family I thought it amusing that her daughter (age 11 at the time) was already subscribed to an app preparing her for SAT's which texted a different vocabulary word to her phone each day. She makes it a point to use the words that are new to her.
This takes only a few minutes out of her day....time she'll never miss...BUT It's impossible to put a price on the value on her expanded vocabulary with learning one new word a day. I shouldn't have been amused...I should have been impressed.
Think about how many words she will have increased her vocabulary by at the time she takes her SAT's and graduates high school if she started (before) she was 11.
It's food for thought. ...especially for those students that are too busy to get a lot of reading in but want to expand their vocabulary any number of reasons,(including passing the AFOQT)
LOL .. Now it's starting to make a little more sense...My niece (now a doctor) attended the Naval Academy. She was the first female in California to be nominated to all 3 academies. A few summers ago while I was visiting her and her family I thought it amusing that her daughter (age 11 at the time) was already subscribed to an app preparing her for SAT's which texted a different vocabulary word to her phone each day. She makes it a point to use the words that are new to her.
This takes only a few minutes out of her day....time she'll never miss...BUT It's impossible to put a price on the value on her expanded vocabulary with learning one new word a day. I shouldn't have been amused...I should have been impressed.
Think about how many words she will have increased her vocabulary by at the time she takes her SAT's and graduates high school if she started (before) she was 11.
It's food for thought. ...especially for those students that are too busy to get a lot of reading in but want to expand their vocabulary any number of reasons,(including passing the AFOQT)
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Pima
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ERAU,
You exactly get my point now on how if they use only the AFOQT and not the SAT/ACT (remember many kids will take them 5, 6, or 7+ times) this score says it all.
10 and 15 respectively means they only scored 10% of the questions correctly. Although it is rare for a cadet to fail at SFT, it does and has happened. There is a post in the bowels of this forum where a poster failed SFT and wondered if they could go to OCS upon graduation.
I will say one thing to candidates applying for AFROTC scholarships: Take the ACT. I know on the east coast SAT is the exam kids take frequently without ever taking the ACT. Our DS probably would have never taken the ACT had it not been for applying to Notre Dame (they wanted ACT). Ironically, he scored better on the ACT(33 or 34 can't recall) than the SAT (1490 out of 1600).
Our DS felt the AFOQT was more like the ACT, especially because part of the AFOQT is like the ACT Science portion.
Here is a site that illustrates why that score is scary.
http://afoqtguide.com/what-afoqt-minimum-required-scores/
Here are the averages for the 2012 selectees:
I am just not sure if the board for this yr does not allow the AFOQT to be substituted by their SAT/ACT scores. TALK TO THE CADRE regarding which test will be USED for SFT selection, AFOQT only or best score from AFOQT/SAT/ACT.
If not how they can make up that % awarded for the board, unless they have out the door cgpa and PFA scores. If I am correct and it is 20%, looking at those scores anyone with 10 and 15%, the quant also would be way below 65.
Don't read into my post, it is just an opinion.
This yr., will also be different than the last 3 or 4 yrs. regarding SFT.
~ They tweak it every yr. and this yrs tweak is no per diem.
You exactly get my point now on how if they use only the AFOQT and not the SAT/ACT (remember many kids will take them 5, 6, or 7+ times) this score says it all.
10 and 15 respectively means they only scored 10% of the questions correctly. Although it is rare for a cadet to fail at SFT, it does and has happened. There is a post in the bowels of this forum where a poster failed SFT and wondered if they could go to OCS upon graduation.
I will say one thing to candidates applying for AFROTC scholarships: Take the ACT. I know on the east coast SAT is the exam kids take frequently without ever taking the ACT. Our DS probably would have never taken the ACT had it not been for applying to Notre Dame (they wanted ACT). Ironically, he scored better on the ACT(33 or 34 can't recall) than the SAT (1490 out of 1600).
Our DS felt the AFOQT was more like the ACT, especially because part of the AFOQT is like the ACT Science portion.
Here is a site that illustrates why that score is scary.
http://afoqtguide.com/what-afoqt-minimum-required-scores/
Here are the averages for the 2012 selectees:
I don't see anything near a 15 Verbal for either rated or non-rated, heck the lowest I saw was in the 60's, 4 X the min.. These scores for 12, and cadets that DID attend SFT.
I am just not sure if the board for this yr does not allow the AFOQT to be substituted by their SAT/ACT scores. TALK TO THE CADRE regarding which test will be USED for SFT selection, AFOQT only or best score from AFOQT/SAT/ACT.
If not how they can make up that % awarded for the board, unless they have out the door cgpa and PFA scores. If I am correct and it is 20%, looking at those scores anyone with 10 and 15%, the quant also would be way below 65.
Don't read into my post, it is just an opinion.
This yr., will also be different than the last 3 or 4 yrs. regarding SFT.
~ They tweak it every yr. and this yrs tweak is no per diem.
ERAUMattmom
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Pima,
I THINK the scores are not the percentage of correct answers,
but the percentile rank....ex. 91 is better than 90% of the test takers..
15 means that your score is better than 14% and worse than 85%...
Somebody correct me if I am wrong.
I THINK the scores are not the percentage of correct answers,
but the percentile rank....ex. 91 is better than 90% of the test takers..
15 means that your score is better than 14% and worse than 85%...
Somebody correct me if I am wrong.
ERAUMattmom
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There is a conversion chart converting AFOQT AA, and ACT Comp, scores to SAT-E Total.
Which is kind of strange in itself as it takes low verbal or quantitative score to fail the AFOQT and AA is not mentioned..
This conversion chart can be found on publication AFOQT136-2011 (12 Aug 13).pdf attachment #21 page 287
Example A AFOQT AA score of 57 or 58, and ACT Comp score of 26 both convert to SAT 1180 (new minimum for scholarships)
AND on page 143 of the same publication explains the calculation of POC EA's
RSS - 50%
Com GPA -20%
PFA - 15%
SAT-E 15%
The WINGS selection algorithm chooses the cadet's highest converted SAT-E score to be used for OM calculation...If a Cadet has not provided a SAT or ACT score or taken the AFOQT test. Then there would be a score of 0 calculated for the SATE score that makes up 15% of the calculations
Which is kind of strange in itself as it takes low verbal or quantitative score to fail the AFOQT and AA is not mentioned..
This conversion chart can be found on publication AFOQT136-2011 (12 Aug 13).pdf attachment #21 page 287
Example A AFOQT AA score of 57 or 58, and ACT Comp score of 26 both convert to SAT 1180 (new minimum for scholarships)
AND on page 143 of the same publication explains the calculation of POC EA's
RSS - 50%
Com GPA -20%
PFA - 15%
SAT-E 15%
The WINGS selection algorithm chooses the cadet's highest converted SAT-E score to be used for OM calculation...If a Cadet has not provided a SAT or ACT score or taken the AFOQT test. Then there would be a score of 0 calculated for the SATE score that makes up 15% of the calculations
Pima
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AFOQT as far as I know is not the way you perceive it. 15 means they scored in the bottom 15% of all cadets that took the test. AFA cadets also take the test.
It ii not a score of 15 and if last yr that = 85%, but 15 equals 90% this yr, than they are 90% It is 15% of the answers were correct. Please read below.
There appears to be no percentile rank from a yr to yr, just a score regarding correctly answered questions.
It ii not a score of 15 and if last yr that = 85%, but 15 equals 90% this yr, than they are 90% It is 15% of the answers were correct. Please read below.
There appears to be no percentile rank from a yr to yr, just a score regarding correctly answered questions.
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ERAU,
It is the percentile rank of those who took the test within the same time frame you have. A 15% does not mean you only got 15% of the questions right, it means that you've only done better than 15% of your peers.
They really sprung this on us. We weren't expecting to have to take it til next year, but they told us in class one day that we had 2 date choices to take it this semester. One was 2 weeks away, the other was 4 weeks away. Not a whole lot of time to prepare considering both dates were during midterm weeks. Plus we were in competition with all the 300s who had been preparing. If other dets handled this similarly, it's understandable that some cadets didn't do as well as they'd hoped.
It is the percentile rank of those who took the test within the same time frame you have. A 15% does not mean you only got 15% of the questions right, it means that you've only done better than 15% of your peers.
They really sprung this on us. We weren't expecting to have to take it til next year, but they told us in class one day that we had 2 date choices to take it this semester. One was 2 weeks away, the other was 4 weeks away. Not a whole lot of time to prepare considering both dates were during midterm weeks. Plus we were in competition with all the 300s who had been preparing. If other dets handled this similarly, it's understandable that some cadets didn't do as well as they'd hoped.
ERAUMattmom
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Pima,
Respectfully, I believe that this may be one of those extremely rare occasions in which you might be mistaken.
According to the latest Cadet Operations Publication AFROTC136-2011 (12 Aug 13).pdf page 85
Section 4.10 AFOQT Requirements
4.10.1 The minimum scores required to commission are Verbal-15 and quantitative -10. AFOQT scores are percentile so a score of 15 in the verbal portion means that the person was in the bottom 15% of the people taking the test.
NDD -
Thank you that was what I was attempting to say... LOL
Respectfully, I believe that this may be one of those extremely rare occasions in which you might be mistaken.
According to the latest Cadet Operations Publication AFROTC136-2011 (12 Aug 13).pdf page 85
Section 4.10 AFOQT Requirements
4.10.1 The minimum scores required to commission are Verbal-15 and quantitative -10. AFOQT scores are percentile so a score of 15 in the verbal portion means that the person was in the bottom 15% of the people taking the test.
NDD -
Thank you that was what I was attempting to say... LOL
Pima
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I will eat crow every day of the week, plus 2x on Sunday if means posters are given the right information. Please re-read my post (35)
I corrected myself.
Either way you want to play it out, does it really matter?
15% means 85% scored higher. When you start looking at the breakdown for points, you need a very strong cgpa and PFA to offset that 15% for AFOQT. Plus, hope that the CoC gives you a strong rec if you have a 16 on the AFOQT.
I am not trying to be rude, I am just saying cadets should look at what the stats are for commissioning cadets in yrs past. I have not found 13, but I will say, at least for our DS(12)), those numbers I posted were right on the mark for his AFSC.
Notice, 16 may be a pass to go to SFT, but again not near the scores truly needed if you are fighting for a competitive career field.
pima said:
I corrected myself.
Either way you want to play it out, does it really matter?
15% means 85% scored higher. When you start looking at the breakdown for points, you need a very strong cgpa and PFA to offset that 15% for AFOQT. Plus, hope that the CoC gives you a strong rec if you have a 16 on the AFOQT.
I am not trying to be rude, I am just saying cadets should look at what the stats are for commissioning cadets in yrs past. I have not found 13, but I will say, at least for our DS(12)), those numbers I posted were right on the mark for his AFSC.
Notice, 16 may be a pass to go to SFT, but again not near the scores truly needed if you are fighting for a competitive career field.
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Although the 2015 class at USAFA took the AFOQT this year, they were told it was going to be used for "tracking" purposes as opposed to being used as an AFSC selection tool.