AFROTC?

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by mom14, Oct 26, 2009.

  1. mom14

    mom14 Member

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    Just wondering what is the history of candidates who do not get an appointment receiving AFROTC scholarships? Of course, assuming all apps are filed, etc.
     
  2. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    My bet would be 100% if they are truly competitive regarding their stats. After 2 yrs here I have never seen a candidate on the AFA site not get a scholarship. That said they have varied in types, thus, they may not get the full ride, but they all do get some money.
     
  3. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    "Full ride" AFROTC scholarships directly out of high school are NOT common. Lesser amount scholarships are more common, but still amount to less than 50% of all scholarships in ROTC.

    Years ago they were VERY common and the AF lost a ton of money with students taking the scholarships and then "bailing out" after a year. So the PTB shifted to a "let's see how serious they are first" mentality.

    The results have been excellent!!! NOW...while not a huge number of high school students get scholarships, those that enroll in ROTC and do well...by the end of the second year, they will most likely be on some ROTC scholarship; and many will end up with 100% for the last 2 years.

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  4. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Let me clarify, I did not mean 100% get full ride, but I meant 100% will get something if they are competitive. Key word COMPETITIVE...only nom Veep...not competitive.

    Also remember they have the 85/15 scale...85% go to science/engineering, 15% to other, thus if your intended degree is not science related your competition is amped up big time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
  5. fencersmother

    fencersmother Founding Member

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    I think it is somewhat different for Army and Navy ROTC than AF. My boys were both offered full rides to two different colleges with both A- and N- rotc, but only partial ride on the AFROTC for freshman year.

    Mine wanted the Academy so it wasn't much of an issue, but I will say that all those ROTC forms were as detailed as the Academy forms. And, the people in charge were harder to contact than the Academy people.
     
  6. mom14

    mom14 Member

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    DS has completed everything for AFA and is working on AFROTC as Plan "B" just in case. Does getting ROTC apps in early have the same benefit as it does with the AFA? Thanks for your input.
     
  7. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Yes and no, it depends on how competitive and his intended major. #1 in the class intending engineering not so much. Stats will put him over the edge. Top 10% intended major govt it may help to be in early. That being said DS met the DEC board with Govr as his intended and got the full ride notification in Jan,

    This thread has warped into ROTC and really should be moved into ROTC if it does not come back to AFA...I do not mean to kill it, just place it where it has the best ability to reach those searching ROTC scholarships as their plan.
     
  8. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    It is hard to imagine that AFA candidates that also applied to AFROTC as a "backup plan" would be "bailing out" after a year and not serious about the Air Force.

    Have to agree with this statement, and it is not too surprising. Every student that did not get a "Full Ride" scholarship out of high school AND
    did not join the Army ROTC (and take a full ride) AND
    did not join the Navy ROTC (and take a full ride) AND
    paid for their own first year or two of college AND
    joined AFROTC has done well.

    If this approach to scholarships has reduced the AF's number of applicants "bailing out" AND is also meeting its need for quality ROTC candidates then I think it can be qualified as having excellent "results". If on the other hand, the AF is losing some of its best potential officers to other ROTC programs and is still requiring its recruiters to go into colleges and offer freshmen full rides to help fulfill the AF's needs, then it may need to be re-examined.

    Just my opinion.....again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
  9. singaporemom

    singaporemom Member

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    Also, AFROTC is giving 100% tuition for certain strategic languages, like mandarin. if you are interested in a foreign language scholarship check with the detachment. They have more knowledge on the ins and outs of this. youngest son has been approached by two schools regarding his interest in Chinese. Applying to schools as Math Major but if doesn't get 100% tuition on that, has the opportunity to switch to Chinese major for full tuition.
     
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    ag,

    I know that when DS was going through the process nobody from the AF tried to recruit him, but we constantly got calls from the Army.

    The AF is one of the smallest of branches (compared to Navy and Army). They have been able for many yrs to recruit the most qualified. DS did not do JROTC, even though there was an AFJROTC at school. He was one of two in the school to receive the scholarship. The other candidate was also not AFJROTC. There were 15 AFJROTC students that applied, not one received any money, to say it left a bitter taste in those students mouths would be an understatement. However, in the end of the day, the AF placed more emphasis on stats and curriculum than loyalty. Conclusion: they can be selective.

    DS's friend got his Army scholarship last minute (1 week before entering college) because when he went for Freshman orientation to ROTC, they put his name in the pot.

    As time goes by it will be interesting to see the board results, I think Navy is probably the most difficult to get the full ride, because it is also based on schools, whereas, the AF states you can take it to whatever college you want that offers AFROTC. However, I think applications are going to be up for economical reasons, which makes me think there will be a change in the types given out to get more cadets.

    I never knew until last yr that they give out scholarships as low as 2K until last yr.
     
  11. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Not sure the intent here - is this a slam on Army and Navy?

    Pima is right on this -
    All three branches are basically competing from the same pool of kids.
    The Air Force is much much smaller than the Army and since they are downsizing and have been for some time their needs a far fewer for future officers.
    In case you had not noticed we have been involved in two ground wars for 8 years. The Army has expanded to meet the needs of boots on the ground and the need for officers has skyrockets. The demand for AF scholarships is still very high because parents would rather have their son/daughter sitting at a desk than riding in a Stryker through Afghanistan. The result is that the AF can put more restrictions on their scholarships and still get high quality candidates. For those willing to join the Army nearly every qualified Army ROTC student will get scholarship money - it is simply the law of supply and demand.
     
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I agree JAM the Army has been boots on the ground for 8 yrs, but as a spouse of an AF Officer, I would like to remind everyone that the AF never left the sandbox, thus, don't go in thinking they will not be deployed. The AF fliers have been shot at now coming up on 2 decades, next August will be 20 yrs where they have flown missions non-stop. The AF never left the sandbox. I remember him missing our kids and my birthday in 04, Thanskgiving without Bullet back in 99, him missing Easter in 97, 93 short notice deployment, 90 a TDY changed from shopping to sitting alert. Do not believe that they will not be gone. For the AF they are gone, if not a flier then as backfill. The deployments are shorter due to SOFA, but they do exist, and they are placed in harms way.

    You do not take a scholarship from any branch thinking one is safer than another. The AF does differ than the Army or the Navy, because their mission is strategically different. You apply because you want to serve in that branch until you are at least 26/27. Remember that when you are 17 applying, you will be 27 when you can start to live "a real life". If you hate boats, than the Navy should not be on your list. If the thought of sitting in a tank makes you claustrophobic, than the Army should not be on your list. If the thought of pulling 9 G's makes you nauseated than don't put the AF.

    The one thing you can be guaranteed of regardless of which branch you select, they will put you where they need you for man power reasons. It is important to realize that your dreams come 2nd, their needs come first. If you can envision only doing one thing in one branch, than apply to them, if you can't envision doing anything in the other branches, it is too high of a price to pay.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2009
  13. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    No. I was simply pointing out that if a "kid" financially needs a full ride then it would be very difficult for him/her to not take an Army or Navy scholarship (which are all full rides) after high school. Is it possible that the Air Force might be losing ROTC students to either the Army or Navy that meet or even exceed the "high quality" that they eventually end up with?

    Thank you. This is very helpful.

    I'm sure the AF does get high quality candidates. My question was whether the restrictions the AF places on their scholarships is costing them some of their top applicants and STILL fulfilling ALL of their needs. I think the fact that the AF recruiters are going into colleges in September and offering full scholarships to the same kids that were offered only type 7s a few months before answers the question. BTW - they are offering full rides to ALL the kids (in the specific areas the AF has needs), not just the ones that were offered type 7s.

    I keep trying to imagine that I'm a "poor" freshman engineering student that had his heart set on going to Carnegie Mellon and joining the AF. He spends most of his high school years getting great grades and doing everything he can to meet the standards of admittance to Carnegie Mellon and the AF. During the Summer after his Junior year in high school he begins the application process to both Carnegie Mellon (his dream school) and the AF. January rolls around and he finds that YES he has been accepted into Carnegie Mellon but the AF can only offer him a type 2 scholarship which won't cover the cost of tuition at the school. What should he do? Take an Army or Navy full ride and forgo the AF?

    He decides that his love for the AF (a love he somehow developed in only 17 years while living at home) out weighs his desire to attend one of the best engineering programs in the country and instead enrolls across the street from Carnegie Mellon at the University Of Pittsburgh. A good school that his type 2 scholarship will cover tuition.

    One day (during his first two weeks at college) an Air Force recruiter shows up at the school and offers engineering students full ride scholarships if they join ROTC and can meet the AF standards.

    What is our (perhaps not so) fictional student hero to think of this? Here is the AF recruiter offering full ride scholarships to kids that in most cases could not even get into Carnegie Mellon, and in almost ALL cases never SERIOUSLY considered AFROTC. Meanwhile he gave up his dream school.....why?
     
  14. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Let's remember any recruiters job is to sell their service...No recruiter can walk in and say you will get a type 1, 2 or 7. They are not on the board that makes the determination...in other words they are selling you something.

    I do not believe that the AF or any branch loses qualified candidates because of the type given, but because the student is not ready to make that commitment or has been given other scholarships that do not require the sign on the dotted line for at least 5 yrs after graduation.

    As I stated before DS and 1 other student got the full ride, the other student was given it for Duke, he turned it down. Kids apply for a multitude of reasons, and for some it is about paying their dream college...for others it is a perk.

    The AF has a unique pull the applicants typically want to fly or use the AF as a building block for aero-space engineering. The Navy also offers this, but if you don't like boats or the water than you will lean towards the AF over the Navy. The Army has a broader range, but JAM is correct, the fear of sitting in a war zone is not appealing to a 17 yo who wants to use the military to pay for schooling....this goes back to why I say Choose wisely.

    We have experienced the Army and the AF over the course of Bullet's career. Hands down, no lie, no shading the truth. AF is the way to go between the two. They are smaller, thus their funds are not stretched as far as the Army. The jokes are true.

    ARMY: If they wanted you to have a family they would have issued you one!
    AIR FORCE: The Corporate military branch.

    That being said, I have many friends who tease the crap out of Bullet for not being in the "real military". They take pride in what they do, and they should...we are all brethren.
     
  15. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    Pima, with all due respect I believe you are incorrect about this. No AF recruiter can offer a high school student a certain type of scholarship (that is determined by a board) but once college has BEGUN and they have been advised that the AF is short on their EE (or another major) recruiting goals, YES they can and do offer type 1 scholarships to qualified kids already in school. These scholarship requests go through a different approval process than the HSSP program. I have this directly from SEVERAL ROTC recruiters. While they may not know year to year what the last minute requirements of the AF will be, some have been willing to share what the last 2 or 3 years have been. Probably not a surprise that they have been recruiting most of the same majors each year.

    Why do you believe this?

    First of all the only branch giving "types" of scholarships is the Air Force. So yes, the Army and Navy are NOT losing qualified candidates because of the type of scholarships they are giving.

    Do you believe that many (some) kids apply to more than one ROTC program? Why would they do this if they were not willing to go to a program other than the AFROTC if they were not offered enough of a scholarship to pay for the school they want to attend? Do some choose to not to attend ANY ROTC program? Of course, just as some only apply to the AFROTC program and turn down type 1 scholarships that have been offered.

    What about the kids that absolutely could NOT afford a college education without a ROTC scholarship? Would they choose not to go to school if the AF offered a scholarship that wouldn't cover the tuition? Is it possible that SOME of these kids MIGHT have to take an Army or Navy ROTC scholarship even if it was their second choice?

    While there may be many reasons why the Air Force is more attractive than another branch not every child has the good fortune to wait while the AF determines whether you are serious about ROTC.
    In my daughter's particular case, she (we) can afford to pay for a year of school until the AF opens the purse strings. BUT...I can easily imagine that there are other MORE qualified candidates than her that cannot wait and must choose a different ROTC program. Some choices are made for economic necessity and not just whether you like water or want to fly.
    Just my opinion....
     
  16. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Here's my bottom line that I have never parted from... do not sign on the dotted line unless you want to serve, be it the branch or the military...the cost is too high! You hate water, planes or tanks then I am sorry, I would sell my kidney before allowing my child to sign away 10 yrs of their life besides the extra reserve commitment kicking in. JMHO. Economic reasons typically do not result in good military morale. Hating what you do for 5 yrs is not a good option for 4 yrs of "free" education...loving what you do and paying 10 yrs of student loans would be a better option.

    You can debate/discuss why or why not to take one branch over the other. The fact will not change you will serve and if you are using the military as a "free" education or to serve in one particular field within the branch, it is not a reason to sign. Military cliche "service before self" exists for a reason.

    For the AF scholarship signing on the dotted line is not until May, or at least that was how it was 2 yrs ago...thus, you have time to weigh every option from every branch.

    Your child will make the best decision for themself with your input. I will not castigate an opinion on why they signed with whatever branch they deem is a right fit for them. I applaud them and their family for giving their life to the benefit of every American.

    You asked a question based on opinions regarding AFROTC scholarships. I gave mine. I will not opine on Army or Navy ROTC scholarships since we were never directly involved and I only have anecdotal information.

    A scholarship candidate must find the right fit because regardless of who they accept a scholarship from, they will be 26-27 at the earliest before they can leave the service. It is difficult for a 17 yo to imagine life at 27, harder even to imagine that their hands are tied by the military in their decisions regarding where they live and when they move or how long they will be deployed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2009
  17. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    Just to clarify....this is your opinion:
     
  18. nick4060

    nick4060 Member

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    Dont let this discourage you. I didnt get into USAFA but still got a non-tech AFROTC scholarship. Its not a full-ride, but at the same time its better I take that then have done engineering to get more money...and then flunk out (as a lot of people do)
     
  19. nick4060

    nick4060 Member

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    Also, on another note, the AF does not lose people based on their "type" system. I live with Army Navy Marine and AF cadets/mids and this subject comes up alot. Its true the AF doesnt offer all full-rides but if finances are an issue, AF cadets can take their scholarships anywhere they want. If not getting full-ride was an issue for me, I could have just stayed in Florida and gone to a cheaper school.


    My Navy friends on the other hand, dont have those options.
     
  20. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I don't believe that any branch loses qualified candidates who want to serve, because like Nick just stated, their desire to serve will not stop them, if that means taking student loans for one yr to get their dream of being commissioned in the military, than that is what they will do.

    I would rather see less qualified that desire to serve then someone who was more qualified who did it for a "free" education. The military life is not easy, take that kid who signed on the dotted line for a "free" education who never lived anywhere, but Boca Raton, Florida and drop them in Minot ND or Camp Red Cloud Korea...they are probably not going to love the AF and most likely at 24 yo regret that they did this for college...it will seep into the morale of the squadron when it is filled with people who did it for the wrong reason.

    I feel the same about those who go this route to be a "pilot". The price is just way too high.

    In the end of the day for the AF, IMHO they probably have the most qualified and that is why you see cadets converting type 2 into type 7. I want to make this clear, I am not saying they are smarter or better, but as it has been pointed out there are extenuating circumstances that AFROTC scholarships look more appealing than the Navy or the Army to a 17 yo and their parents.

    1. The Navy scholarship is tied to the school, and if you want to meet early boards, you will get your result before your admittance. AF you can take it where ever you decide to matriculate.
    2. The Army is carrying the brunt right now, and many parents would say I don't want you to go to a war zone, so don't apply. They probably have the most scholarship candidates that really want to serve, because you don't put yourself in harms way if your heart isn't there.
     

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