Army ROTC scholarship getting accepted to college

[cb7893]

Apologies in advance to apsbraves for adding to the threadjack.


Hot off the press:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...ut-asian-americans-at-california-schools.html

Hot off the UCSD website.

http://studentresearch.ucsd.edu/sriweb/UCSDCollegeProfile.pdf

Total undergrad enrollment Fall 2011--23,046. Total out of state and foreign enrollment 2,208. Less than 10%. Numbers don't jibe with Bloomberg.

As for the young man from Beverly Hills, what does he expect. Any UC school for in state prices is a bargain. I have to keep repeating this: given his zip code, USC would cost his parents $50k+, Stanford $55k+, University of San Diego $45+, UCSD less than $30K. If the parents have brains, they realize that the extra cost at the other schools is justifyable in only a very few cases. I give you my son's roomate (mentioned above) as a perfect example.

My son (out of state) was admitted to Berkeley two years ago. Total cost $50K, less than $25K for in state. Every and I mean every school wants first gen college students and disadvantaged, just like D1 schools want athletes. 42% of UCSD undergrads receieved Pell grants in 2009, meaning the parents have virtually nothing (that one's for you patent).

It's San Diego for crying out loud, not Northern Michigan. It's actually in La Jolla. There are nine other UC campuses. I bet he would have gotten into Cal Irvine or Riverside.

My point is that there is always more to the story. Find me a Chinese student who was admitted with lower scores that Mr. 90210 then I'll get excited.

 

[educateme]

I have the feeling that our ever vigilant moderator will swoop in any moment and stop this discussion since this has gotten off topic and a bit politically controversial.

Before that happens, let me add this:

Kwanhyun Park, the 18-year-old son of Korean immigrants, spent four years at Beverly Hills High School earning the straight As and high test scores he thought would get him into the University of California, San Diego. They weren’t enough.

The sought-after school, half a mile from the Pacific Ocean, admitted 1,460 fewer California residents this year to accept higher-paying students from out-of-state, many from China.

I am a Far East Asian too, so I am not dismissing disadvantages top flight Asian students are facing when it comes to competitive college admissions scene. Hack, my two kids are half Asians, and they checked both Asian and White on the applications forms, and I will never know how that played.

That said, the above quote is highly misleading. It's even disingenuous to present what could be interpreted as a "causal relationship" between the two. Are you implying that if not for these rich Chinese kids, the more deserving Korean kid would have gotten in? Do you actually know how many these rich Chinese kids were actually admitted? How about all the legacy kids and kids whose parents make a large donation to the school and more or less get in because of that? Are you going to go up in arms against these kids too? Why do I get the feeling the numerically, the number of legacy kids and kids of large donors who get in with lower scores that the Korean kid mentioned above is MUCH higher than the number of the rich Chinese kids. If you are so much in sympathy with the Korean kid mentioned, did it occur to you that all the athletic scholarships that are handed out like candies to students who would have never made it to top colleges on an academic merit could have been given to more deserving, hard working Korean immigrant students?

Furthermore, if the schools used strict number based admissions criteria, a good portion of under-represented minority students in top elite colleges may not be there. Instead, there will be more of these super performing Asian immigrant kids. But, that's OK. The schools have to balance out the student body make up. Elite colleges should not put together a class of future elites and decision makers in this country consisting of 30% Asian kids and 20% Jewish kids - that would be the case if academic decisions made free of ANY demographic and socio economical considerations. I am saying as a parent of two kids who are half Asians and were raised as Jews. We want a "just" society where our decision makers come from all classes and backgrounds, the kind of people with sensitivity and empathy toward those from different walks of life. For this, I am happy to live with whatever reverse affirmative action damage my kids will suffer. They have been given so much more than most of their peers. They are the product of all the prestige this society has to offer. They can afford to have one hand tied in back, if it provides more poportunities to larger segment of this population. In the end, it's better that way for them and their kids.

Society without social mobility is a society that is a time bomb ready to go off. I don't want my kids and their kids to live in an environment. Check out the history. Learn which societies ended up going up in flames in revolution.

I was not happy with my second son in pursuit of a potentially dangerous career, but he made his point: he felt that more the nation's privileged young people should serve the country. In fact, in his preppy school, he made a point of talking very rich kids into the ROTC program. One of them is joining. His parents who have a summer home in Martha's Vineyard are not happy. I respect my son's decision and career path. I am 100% in support of him and his decision now.

 

[patentesq]

Maybe I'm just not grasping the big picture, but I don't understand why Michigan State University has to have a recruiting office in Beijing, China.

 

[kinnem]

I am saying as a parent of two kids who are half Asians and were raised as Jews.

Now that's a combination I thought could only happen in the movies. Mazaltov to your family. Thanks for supporting your son's service.

 

[educateme]

Maybe I'm just not grasping the big picture, but I don't understand why Michigan State University has to have a recruiting office in Beijing, China.

Public schools are now trying to get as many out of state students they can get because of the budget crunch: the OOS students pay top dollars. In order to be attractive to OOS students, they need to pass their school off as a school not just for the state residents. For that, they need international appeal. Furthermore, then need to go up in the ranking chart. USNWR ranking chart is mostly widely referred to. One of their scoring sheet looks at the % of international students AND faculty.

Furthermore, public Ivy's are charting their future more like a private school. They can no longer depend an adequate funding from their home state. They need to broaden their geographical appeal, and they need PRIVATE donation. In fact, only a small % of Univ of Michigan (not to be confused with Michigan State) budget comes form the state (less than 10%, I believe: correct me if I am wrong). They NEED private donations, and the best way to do it to go up in rank and be an INTERNATIONALLY RENOWNED academic institutions.

By the way, Univ Michigan piloted this strategy. Worked very well for them. UVA is catching on. Berkeley too. In case Berkeley, it appears that they thought they wouldn't need to do that because of their stellar reputation internationally, but they are realizing that that's not enough. They are reaching out more to the OSS and international applicants.

People may cry fowl: the state resident may scream that they should admit more in state students. Well, if most people feel that way, they should not consistently vote for the politicians who are cutting funding to all sorts of educational institutions, universities included. You want to cut funding to stellar institutions like Berkeley and U Michagan, well they will have to accept students who are bringing in revenues. No two ways about it. The voters should choose.

 

[EDelahanty]

Cry fowl? Is that the same as shucky ducky? Seems like the melting pot is never far from the front burner.

For what it's worth, many US public and private colleges, as well as private prep schools, actively seek foreign students whose families will pay full freight, or maybe even kick in something towards a new library or science building.

 

[cb7893]

Maybe I'm just not grasping the big picture, but I don't understand why Michigan State University has to have a recruiting office in Beijing, China.

With all due respect. There are at least 50 serious research universities in the US. Big Ten research Universities are especially huge and have huge STEM Departments. Our kids have TA's who barely speak English because there isn't enough inflow of American kids who can do the Math/Science. Many of those who can go to law school or med school. They are even going straight to Wall Street or MBA programs with STEM degrees.

STEM departments need physical bodies just to maintain their human eco-systems. So as an administrator, whom do you go after? In state tuition paying kids who chose majors in money losing departments (English, Art, Music, sociology) or above full freight paying foriegners who want majors in departments that actually return $ and prestige to the University.

For a full generation now American kids have essentially been told how great they. School call about any kid "gifted", so they and their parents start thinking from first grade that their kid is more than he/she really is. While our kids are doing scouts, sports, voluteering at the children's hospital, university aspirants in India, China, Japan, Taiwan, Brazil, Malaysia, Indonesia, Russia, etc. are in cram schools preparing for their national university exams. These cram schools are not the local SAT prep class two nights a week for three weeks. These go 10 or more hours a week all school year and start in middle school.

When those folks came to the US and became citizens and raise families, that dedication to educational success was the norm in their homes.

I know all this sounds crass, but we're not in Kansas anymore.

 

[patentesq]

Public schools are now trying to get as many out of state students they can get because of the budget crunch: the OOS students pay top dollars. In order to be attractive to OOS students, they need to pass their school off as a school not just for the state residents. For that, they need international appeal. Furthermore, then need to go up in the ranking chart. USNWR ranking chart is mostly widely referred to. One of their scoring sheet looks at the % of international students AND faculty.

Furthermore, public Ivy's are charting their future more like a private school. They can no longer depend an adequate funding from their home state. They need to broaden their geographical appeal, and they need PRIVATE donation. In fact, only a small % of Univ of Michigan (not to be confused with Michigan State) budget comes form the state (less than 10%, I believe: correct me if I am wrong). They NEED private donations, and the best way to do it to go up in rank and be an INTERNATIONALLY RENOWNED academic institutions.

By the way, Univ Michigan piloted this strategy. Worked very well for them. UVA is catching on. Berkeley too. In case Berkeley, it appears that they thought they wouldn't need to do that because of their stellar reputation internationally, but they are realizing that that's not enough. They are reaching out more to the OSS and international applicants.

People may cry fowl: the state resident may scream that they should admit more in state students. Well, if most people feel that way, they should not consistently vote for the politicians who are cutting funding to all sorts of educational institutions, universities included. You want to cut funding to stellar institutions like Berkeley and U Michagan, well they will have to accept students who are bringing in revenues. No two ways about it. The voters should choose.

educateme, I think you have circled back to my original point. There was a time when the role of higher education, particularly public education, was to educate the local populace, just like the roadways are built to service the local populace. In that day, there was no need for a state college being "internationally renowned" or attracting out-of-state students. But the game has changed for education in America, and the populace who was originally supposed to benefit from the local availability of higher education has suffered. Education now appears to be following the "Wall Street" model and is losing sight of its moral duty to the public it is supposed to serve. While economics may be forcing this behavior, it is nevertheless regrettable that this is, in fact, happening.

Goaliedad, check out this recent survey reflecting more than 20 educators in the Boston area earning more than $1 million annually. http://dailyfreepress.com/2011/10/0...stems-from-highly-paid-executives-study-says/ We probably need to add those salaries to the cost of air-conditioning units in the dorms.

cb7893, you make very valid points. The crisis in higher education may actually be a symptom and not the root of the problem. But I certainly hope that our national Service Academies do NOT respond to the problem of reduced funding in the same manner that many state universities have -- by opening a recruiting office in Beijing.

 

[educateme]

educateme, I think you have circled back to my original point. There was a time when the role of higher education, particularly public education, was to educate the local populace, just like the roadways are built to service the local populace. In that day, there was no need for a state college being "internationally renowned" or attracting out-of-state students. But the game has changed for education in America, and the populace who was originally supposed to benefit from the local availability of higher education has suffered. Education now appears to be following the "Wall Street" model and is losing sight of its moral duty to the public it is supposed to serve. While economics may be forcing this behavior, it is nevertheless regrettable that this is, in fact, happening.

I fully sympathize with your view. The problem is, no currently top flight public universities will be able to maintain their position without adapting to changing environment. if they don't, they will atrophy. if flagship state universities do not maintain their prestige as a premier academic reputation, they will start losing the top flight IN STATE students to other public schools or private schools that can easily lure them with scholarship money. They will lose top flight faculty that bring in research funding and generate outstanding intellectual property. no high tech and knowledge driven industry will settle in a state without outstanding higher educational institution, because outstanding universities very often form the nucleus of cutting edge research and man power.

In the end, states without outstanding universities will suffer the consequence. So, the policies that these universities are employing now to survive and maintain their prestige may seem "selfish" and "business like" while they undermine the needs of the local students in that state. But in the end, what they have to do to maintain their standing helps the states in the long term.

A few days ago, there was a washington post article about how Berkeley's position is being seriously compromised by their budget woes. It's a real shame. In the end, I think the interest of the state of California will be better served if Berkeley does whatever it needs to survive as a premier institution with world wild renown even if it means that it accepts fewer in state students in favor of top paying out of state students and, yes, even rich Chinese kids.

 

[patentesq]

But in the end, what they have to do to maintain their standing helps the states in the long term.

Good point.

 

[Pima]

I am a graduate of the University of Virginia and a resident of New Jersey...Chris Christie country...what is with the NJ comments?

CARY, NC is commonly referred to as the Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.

Still off topic, but one topic regarding the elite privates, such as Duke, with their rising tuition costs is the fact that their endowment funds are Billions of dollars. There was a study a few yrs back that Harvard could actually pay for every undergrad and grad their entire academic career just off the interest from endowments. I think that is why many are generally frustrated regarding how the rates have increased while Cost of Living has not kept up to that pace.

However, IMPO, the only people to blame are those who are willing to pay it. The minute colleges see a decrease in enrollment or quality of applicants they will address this situation.

The OP as others have stated if they are a minority, but an ORM, and not a URM this could impact the decision from admissions. Some colleges, do want diversity in the minority break down, and Duke has always been one of those schools, but with the make up of society changing, they may be looking for different minorities.

That is not to be said the male caucasian is boffed in admittance, because they are still the majority, it is just to say that it will play into the equation.

The OP should talk to their PMS, but at the same time be realistic and have a plan B for another college. Unfortunately it is not uncommon on this site for candidates to get a scholarship, but not the school, or get the school, but not the scholarship. That is why it is so important to "match" the schools list, having all reaches may be detrimental to them in the long run.

Finally regarding public universities, at least the 3 states that my kids are involved with, (MD. VA and NC), there are regulations about how many can be OOS compared to IS. They all vary, but not one accepts more than 30% from OOS, as patentesq pointed out these colleges are funded through state taxes. A couple of yrs ago VA was accepting about 30% from OOS, MD too, but when the economy hit the skids, parents started screaming how their kid couldn't get into the top IS schools, but they were accepting lower stat OOS kids. Both states changed it and now both accept no more than 25% from OOS.

I also agree with cb7893, many of the STEM classes are taught by foreign speaking TA's. These classes are difficult enough, but when you add a language barrier (accent) kids have even more issues because for some they are teaching themselves and that creates a gpa issue. For ROTC cadets this is a big deal since their OML is in part their gpa.

I can't recall which university it was, it was a large nationally known public university, but a couple of yrs ago they made news. They decided that all TA's must pass a proficiency test for language and speaking. It had mixed reactions, and I can see both sides of the debate. Students who had many TAs with thick accents were for this, but it also caused the argument of discrimination against these TA's.

The only reason I recall this is because my nephew was a TA at UIC while he was going for his doctorate and we discussed this at length about how he would feel or his peers that are TA's would feel if it occurred at his college. He was completely opposed to it, because in his eyes they earned their position from an academic level, and that should be the only thing that mattered. Ironically, my sister was totally for it and reminded him that when he was a fresh buck in college he complained how a grade in certain classes were low because he didn't understand the TA.

Like everything in life, it all depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on when it comes to the position you will take.

 

[kinnem]

CARY, NC is commonly referred to as the Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.

Wait a minute. How did Cary get dragged into this?!?!
BTW, it is.

 

[goaliedad]

Goaliedad, check out this recent survey reflecting more than 20 educators in the Boston area earning more than $1 million annually. http://dailyfreepress.com/2011/10/0...stems-from-highly-paid-executives-study-says/ We probably need to add those salaries to the cost of air-conditioning units in the dorms.

The list of 2009’s Top 20 most highly compensated employees includes finance and investment officers, medical school professors, athletic coaches and directors.

I think I mentioned this in my post that certain specialties have had thier costs of instruction rise more than average. My point exactly.

And in the state university system where I live we also have medical school professors, ADs, and coaches who are paid 4 to 5 times as much as most other professors. BTW, those highly paid coaches and athletic directors salaries are entirely paid for from an athletic department that gets no revenue from either tax payers nor tuition. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the same at BU (obviously tax payers don't contribute to the private institution, but I'm also guessing that the athletic department is self supporting).

And I will argue that today's medical schools are turning out MDs who have to be educated in many areas of medicine that didn't even exist a generation ago. Once again, different product different cost.

As to the finance guys, I'm not entirely sold on the concept of what the teach in finance school today really makes the world more efficient with its use of capital. Let's just say when today's MBAs idea of efficient use of resources is running dedicated fiber (not cheap) across the Atlantic to get trade data from European markets back to their computers a fraction of a second faster so they can beat their competitors to a make a counter trade on this continent to cover their position. This poster has serious doubts about the increase value of the business degree today versus that of yesterday. And need I even bring up all the rocket scientists (oops, I mean finance guys) who brought us the last few years of financial meltdown... Let's just say lots of MBAs who mastered the nuances of creating new financial instruments, but failed to recognize the basic principals of excessive leverage in any market causing a bubble and subsequent correction. Or perhaps made their money and left the suckers (taxpayers) holding the bag.

Trying to get back on topic, hopefully the OP will take the lessons of teamwork learned in ROTC (whether at Duke or elsewhere) where it is about the team and not your own position and not get swept up in today's notion of success being measured by the size of one's wallet like many of the abovementioned folks. At these moneyed institutions, it is easy to lose sight of what is really important in this world.

 

[goaliedad]

Apologies in advance to apsbraves for adding to the threadjack.


Hot off the press:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...ut-asian-americans-at-california-schools.html

Dragging this article back to the OP, the kid denied admission to UCSD, while having a perfect GPA from 90210 (it was even called this when I grew up in LA) and SAT scores (1340) slightly above average, there is so much missing here that went into the denial decision, I don't know where to start.

Beyond the obvious lack of information about Mr 90210's ECs, a 1340 SAT matched with a 4.0 GPA says one of two things to me. Either he is an incredibly poor test taker, or he took an incredibly watered down course load with my guess being the later. And even when I grew up, if you didn't take the top level class offered, the competitive UC campuses discounted your GPA significantly when doing their calculations.

And one more thing. I'll bet he was not among the top applicants from his HS to UCSD. That is probably more damaging than any of the above.

And if I remember correctly, he also applied to UCLA and Berkeley. Talking about wasting his time. And as others have mentioned, he probably should have applied to UCI as well, instead of ending up at Santa Monica CC (where my bet is that his plan B to transfer will probably fail as well) I think he had poor guidance from his school or his parents didn't want to listen to "less prestigous" options.

With what the OP has reported, he has reasonably competitive test scores for Duke, but what we don't know about his application (ECs, rigor of HS coursework) is probably what will make or break his application more than his ROTC scholarship.

The press loves writing stories about seemingly sympathetic people getting denied what they want to make available to everyone of the group that seems to be out of favor. Usually, if you do the research, you will find the story behind the story - in this case a marginally qualified applicant whose family is looking for someone to blame for their miscalculation.

I'm not arguing that getting into top schools is as easy as it used to be for anyone. There are about 10 million more Californians now than when I went to school there and the schools have not grown proportionally. And when any product or service becomes more competitive and people hang unrealistic expectations about getting that product, there will be griping and complaining when those expectations are not met usually with some easy target to blame.

 

[apsbraves]

Well that was interesting to read. But to answer the questions, I have applied to University of Texas, Alabama, and Auburn. I'm not an Asian. I'm a white guy. My verbal act scores were so low because I got bored answering those stupid questions.

 

[cb7893]

Well that was interesting to read. But to answer the questions, I have applied to University of Texas, Alabama, and Auburn. I'm not an Asian. I'm a white guy. My verbal act scores were so low because I got bored answering those stupid questions.

Not to be nosey... but I have a few questions.

1. Did your parents go to college? If not, you are sought after commodity with your GPA and ACT's.

2. Did you only apply for ROTC scholarship at Duke? If not, there is a process for transferring.

3. Are either UT or UA and AU in state for you? My son transferred his scholarship from GA Tech (out of state) to a Big 10 public (also out of state), but it was not without a special effort by him and the admissions office. He is the only 4yr scholarship out of stater in his battalion.

I've got to believe that UT Austin would be even more difficult. Just getting into UT Austin as a out of stater is just a couple of notches below Duke in selectivity. And they aren't sitting with a beggar's cup on a Beijing street corner. Like GA, TX is extremely aggtressive at keeping Texans at home, to the point of accepting borderline unqualified in staters. Top 10% of the class is the criterion and there is a lot of variability between Texas public high schools.

 

[goaliedad]

Well that was interesting to read. But to answer the questions, I have applied to University of Texas, Alabama, and Auburn. I'm not an Asian. I'm a white guy. My verbal act scores were so low because I got bored answering those stupid questions.

Welcome back. Glad we didn't lose you going off into the weeds.

Not sure where your financials come into your school decision. However, with your stats, you should get some great FA at UA and AU as well. Plus, you appear to have the book smarts necessary to do well academically in either school - a plus if you cannot transfer the ROTC scholarship for in-school opportunities. Not to mention the advantage of being the big fish (GPA-wise) when it comes to OML scores at commission time (given that you do well in ROTC oriented activites).

If finances become a non-issue, I encourage you to choose a school where you will be motivated to achieve the most. Best of luck with your opportunities.

 

[Jcleppe]

Well that was interesting to read. But to answer the questions, I have applied to University of Texas, Alabama, and Auburn. I'm not an Asian. I'm a white guy. My verbal act scores were so low because I got bored answering those stupid questions.

Hopefully your Boredom is not what keeps you from being accepted to Duke.

 

[zl677]

I was just accepted to Duke early decision, but I haven't been awarded a scholarship yet. Have you been in contact with the Major there who is in charge of recruiting? I stayed in touch with her throughout the admissions process and I know that she speaks with the admissions department; I firmly believe that she had a lot to do with my acceptance. Good luck and hopefully we'll be classmates in the fall.

 

[apsbraves]

I was just accepted to Duke early decision, but I haven't been awarded a scholarship yet. Have you been in contact with the Major there who is in charge of recruiting? I stayed in touch with her throughout the admissions process and I know that she speaks with the admissions department; I firmly believe that she had a lot to do with my acceptance. Good luck and hopefully we'll be classmates in the fall.

Yeah I have been talking to Major Judith Cannon. I was awarded my scholarahip after the firat board meeting. Duke was my #6 choice but that is where they assigned me.