I would assume that all of the cadets in the battalion know that in order to be competitive they must be 280 or above? I gather that the battalion where your sons are does a top notch job in preparing their cadets to succeed.
Downsizing Contracted AROTC
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I would assume that all of the cadets in the battalion know that in order to be competitive they must be 280 or above? I gather that the battalion where your sons are does a top notch job in preparing their cadets to succeed.
After DD received her 3 Yr. AD scholarship, she emailed the PMS at her school asking for where she could get the proper form for the pushup. On of the cadre emailed back with some links, which apparently are quite abundant on the internet, with a video of the proper form.
When DD arrived to campus and PT, she was doing pushups to the form shown in the video... which primarily means the hands are placed very close to the shoulders, much closer than most cadets prefer, b/c hands close in to the shoulders makes it a much harder pushup than hands wide out. The PT instructors on her campus were very quick, on multiple occassions, to point out the the other female cadets that my DD's was the proper form for pushup and that they should copy it. When the APFT was administered, and she barely passed the Pushup test, it crossed my mind to ask her if she had considered using the easier form of pushup to get a higher score, but I decided that was a losing proposition in the long run and didn't mention anything.
I don't think any cadet can plead ignorance with regard to the proper form of pushup -- even if not instructed properly in PT, a googling of "Army Regulation pushup", or "military pushup form", comes back with lots of video and picture examples.
However, this is where it DOES get tricky... I have seen video clips from LDAC, and some counters allow hands wide out, completely contrary to regulation ... so even at LDAC a cadet us going to find counters who allow bad pushup form which leads to an improperly high # of pushups counted. I would advise any cadet at LDAC, assuming the cadet gets real-time feedback with an audible count, to start with hands wide out, and move them in only if a pushup fails to get a count.
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Marist, interesting point. I read in the PMS manual, or whatever it's called, from a few years ago, the categories of High Cost and Low Cost colleges. Looks like that has been refined.
Private school tuition + fees: In searching out colleges two years ago, I did notice that most elite privates have a "rack rate" tuition + fees of $42,000. Names we all know... Boston University/College, Tulane, Miami, Wake Forest, SMU, USC, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Duke etc. Basically all private research Universities ranked in or close to the top 50 in US News.
Then, I noticed a 2nd category of Privates tuition: about $10,000 less at $32,000 These tend to be universities with an historic tie to a religious institution and not ranked in the top 50 US News: Baylor, TCU, Loyola of New Orleans are examples I noticed then. A 3rd grouping would be privates not ranked in US News top 100, and (seemingly) without a large graduate school component. I am assuming both Marist ($29,000) and Clarkson fit into this category, but haven't checked on Clarkson.
So, when you write "lnexpensive Private", might you be referring to the privates costing around $29,000 - $32,000 tuition+fees vs. the $42,000 tuition+fees? Or is there yet another category of Private schools with tuition+fees under $30,000 that I am unaware of?
I mean, it does seem to make financial sense for Cadet Command to offer 4 scholarships to an "inexpensive private" vs. 3 scholarships to an "expensive private", if one assumes that past a certain level of competence, a 2LT from a less prestigious (and less expensive) private is as competent an officer as one from an more elite private... an opinion I probably share. Then of course the discussion of EITHER of these two categories in comparison to a $13,500 Public like UCLA, or a $7,500 Public like Cal State Northridge makes sense... but that's yet another discussion.... ... Even using the 3 Yr. AD to an Expensive vs. 4 Yr. AD to an inexpensive public...let's see, 1 2LT from BU vs. 4.5 from CS Northridge. Interesting policy discussions I'm sure at Cadet Command over the next year or two.
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Interesting view on the cost of the schools etc. My DS attends one of the Elite schools you mentioned. ROTC is great, but the school is not the best fit for him. He is thinking about attempting a transfer out of the brigade to a state school where the tuition is $7000 a year. I don't think he has a shot, but his argument is that he is saving the Army over 40K a year. Can't hurt to try I suppose.
Yes they lay out the requirements early on.
The battalion does the best they can in preparing the cadets. PT 3 days a week, remedial PT the other two days. A MS1 ans MS2 must have a 270 which includes at least a 90 in each section of the APFT to be allowed to skip remedial. MS3's must have a 300 if they want to avoid remedial. Even with these standards there are those that don't hit the marks, the one's that do are the cadets that have realized that PT alone will not get them to where they want to be, they need to workout outside of the scheduled PT. Even with all that there are cadets that will always struggle to achieve that 300, that's where I agree with you that the Army has set standards, a PMS can tell if a cadet is giving it their all or if the are just slacking.
Proper form is drilled into the MS3's prior to going to LDAC. The cadet can watch every video available to them, they can do the PU's in front of a screen that is playing a video of the proper form. All of this means nothing when they get to LDAC, the grading is still subjective. The Master Sgt told me this year that some of the graders would probably not count half the pu's they do in the videos. The APFT is the most complained about phase of LDAC, your DD will probably hear the complaints from her friends that return from LDAC. The NCO's have wanted a change for some time due to how subjective some graders can be. The rule of thumb is to be about 20 points above what you want to get at LDAC, the other tip is to try and Max the run, it is the only part of the APFT that is not subjective and it can help keep your score respectable. Every cadet knows the proper form by the time they are MS3's The grading at LDAC needs to be more consistant, it can still be hard and they should hold the cadets to the standards of the Army, they should not grade to standards they themselves decide need to be met.
Don't get me wrong, I am not speaking from any bitterness, son knew this going in and did fine, a little bewildered that so many PU's were not counted but was far enough above the standards going in that it did not hurt him. He did see other cadets that suffered from the grading.
As the Master Sgt. put it, When a cadet's career is on the line they deserve fair and consistant grading, nothing more and nothing less.
Sounds like a reasonable grading scale.
Out of curiosity, how many of the 4"s are keeping that 300 score. What a great way to prevent senioritis.
Agree 100%. Have you seen some of those LDAC videos from this past summer? To be fair I cannot tell if some of those "hands-wide-out" pushups are actually getting counted, but it was surprising to see that very bad form on camera. Hand position isn't really subjective... it can be measured with a ruler. The subjective part of the pushups would be bow in the back, and how close to the ground the sternum gets if there isn't something to on the ground to touch with the sternum.
I hadn't given much thought to the sit-up, or curlup, or whatever its called form. I am assuming my DD in another two years at LDAC will be doing the new Rower exercise by that time.
Son told me that the comment the grader told him as to why some were not counting was "Not enough definition in the up and down fluidity of movement" His reply was "Huh!!"
It will indeed be interesting to see how the new test stacks up and how the grading is done.
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I've certainly never noticed any fluidity in MY pushups, let alone definition in same (said the aging old man)
As to the confusion and inconsistency in pushup evaluation...
1) Hands are to be approximately shoulder width apart. People with wider shoulders get their hands further apart. Evaluator should correct this on the first rep (or before starting if they have any consideration).
2) The drop has a clear spec - 90 degree bend in elbow with upper arm parallel to floor. Cadet can't see his/her arms, but has an idea of how bent elbow is by feel.
3) "Fluidity" is a problem. Body is to remain rigidly in a line from shoulder to ankle during the entire pushup. If you have "fluidity", it means that your belly sags on the way down and butt peaks at the top and your body is therefore not rigid and in a straight line. This can be difficult for a cadet to notice as his instinct is to allow his body to help his momentum (the bounce from the belly sag starts the momentum upwards). Training for the perfect pushup should have the cadet focusing on isolating the work to the arms and chest only. I think most cadets would benefit from watching them doing pushups on video with a side by side of a proper plank pushup.
That being said, I agree that I saw a lot of poor looking pushups on LDAC video as well as many sharp pushups. It wasn't entirely clear in much of that footage what was being counted and what didn't count. I can understand the confusion, but ultimately the cadet is responsible for understanding and carrying out the exercise.
1) Hands are to be approximately shoulder width apart. People with wider shoulders get their hands further apart. Evaluator should correct this on the first rep (or before starting if they have any consideration).
2) The drop has a clear spec - 90 degree bend in elbow with upper arm parallel to floor. Cadet can't see his/her arms, but has an idea of how bent elbow is by feel.
3) "Fluidity" is a problem. Body is to remain rigidly in a line from shoulder to ankle during the entire pushup. If you have "fluidity", it means that your belly sags on the way down and butt peaks at the top and your body is therefore not rigid and in a straight line. This can be difficult for a cadet to notice as his instinct is to allow his body to help his momentum (the bounce from the belly sag starts the momentum upwards). Training for the perfect pushup should have the cadet focusing on isolating the work to the arms and chest only. I think most cadets would benefit from watching them doing pushups on video with a side by side of a proper plank pushup.
That being said, I agree that I saw a lot of poor looking pushups on LDAC video as well as many sharp pushups. It wasn't entirely clear in much of that footage what was being counted and what didn't count. I can understand the confusion, but ultimately the cadet is responsible for understanding and carrying out the exercise.
EDelahanty
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FWIW, I had a glimpse at the final APFT score last year for Cadet Delahanty's battalion. The most striking feature was the the 185 registered by one MS4, who had a 61 and two 62s. There probably should be some kind of Yossarian award for that kind of accomplishment.
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"Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them." - Joseph Heller
I think my point has been lost.
There is not a problem with the way proper form is taught to the cadets in regard to PU's. The videos are shown, the form is taught. Every cadet in the first year goes through a APFT listening to the grader count out 5,5,5,5,until the cadet does it correctly before hearing 6. My point was that while the cadets are taught the proper form and take multiple APFT's using the form that was taught, they still run into a buzz saw at LDAC when it comes to scoring. My point is that if a cadet has been taught the form, completed tests using that form for 3 years they should not be graded to different standards at LDAC. A lot of posters here have not had cadets that have completed LDAC, my point was to just warn them that it is not always cut and dry as to the grading, be far above what you hope to get. More then likely no matter how much your cadets train to proper form APFT scoring will be the one thing they roll their eyes and complain about when they finish LDAC.
Hopefully the new test will have stricter guidelines in testing and things can start fresh.
There is not a problem with the way proper form is taught to the cadets in regard to PU's. The videos are shown, the form is taught. Every cadet in the first year goes through a APFT listening to the grader count out 5,5,5,5,until the cadet does it correctly before hearing 6. My point was that while the cadets are taught the proper form and take multiple APFT's using the form that was taught, they still run into a buzz saw at LDAC when it comes to scoring. My point is that if a cadet has been taught the form, completed tests using that form for 3 years they should not be graded to different standards at LDAC. A lot of posters here have not had cadets that have completed LDAC, my point was to just warn them that it is not always cut and dry as to the grading, be far above what you hope to get. More then likely no matter how much your cadets train to proper form APFT scoring will be the one thing they roll their eyes and complain about when they finish LDAC.
Hopefully the new test will have stricter guidelines in testing and things can start fresh.
Ouch!!
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On a good day I can spell LDAC so please excuse my ignorance. I wonder if there is a purpose to their madness on the PUs? Could they be trying to rattle 'em, shake 'em up, stress 'em? Or are they just truly being arbitrary?
I would choose Arbitrary.
Rattling and shaking them up would be fine if it wasn't recorded and such a significant part of their OMS, but what can they do, they know it's going to happen before they go, they've heard all about it from those who have gone. The best they can do is to adhere to the regs and hope for the best, oh, and max the run, nothing arbitrary about that score.
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LOL. Good advice.
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Most everyone is above a 270. Most of the reserve/NG could care less and hover around 270-280. The more motivated guys easily get 300 and 300-350 in some cases. I sit around 280-290, I am not a huge on long distance running and I will admit I spend more hours lifting than on the track. PU are never a problem for me. On any given diagnostic test I would say 20-30% of our class is 300 or above.
*Edit* Hand positioning doesn't really matter as being wider than shoulder width usually becomes more difficult because there is less chest involvement. I have never seen on anyone campus or at LDAC getting corrected for hand positioning. I use the wide arm approach to get more use out of back and less on my triceps. According to the regs your body needs to be in a generally straight line and your arms should lock out in the up position and 90 degrees on the down approach. Bad push ups either involve the person bowing their back, doing the "worm", not coming all the way up, not going low enough or sagging.
You want to be good at pushups? Lift. I never do pushups (except at PT) and I max them every time. You need to shock your muscle fibers so a good blend of incline/reg push up super sets and weight lifting will easily allow you to max the test even in a LDAC environment. I lost 7 at LDAC because I stopped lifting a month prior to drop weight for the run.
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