Downsizing Contracted AROTC

[NorwichDad]

Downsizing

Control what you can control and don't worry about the rest. The one thing for certain is that tomorrow will come. The world will be different 1,2 4 years from now. When one door closes more will open. One defeat will give rise to a later victory.

All of you enjoy today before tomorrow comes.

Especially today - Go Giants

 

[Pima]

Dumb question I know, but didn't the cadets with the low scoring PFT know that this might be an issue prior to going?

In other words did they comprehend that PFT was not for grins and giggles during the school yr? Or was this a training issue at their unit, where they didn't stress how intensive it would be at LDAC?

Just curious because as I understand it, AROTC cadets can go even up to their sr summer. I would imagine that the cadets that return in the fall as POCs can stress to the younger classes that PFT is not a joke, it can cause you to be dis-enrolled.

Again, I love learning, and this is about me understanding the system. My experience is AFROTC and we all know that means as far as AROTC I am equivalent to a hs candidate when it comes to the process from MSI to commissioning.

My assumption as an AFROTC cadet Mom, is based on the word assume, and that means I am assuming there is either an issue with the 5% that do not complete, majority APFT, or units not training them hard enough to succeed.

Let me state I believe some cadets will self-destruct on purpose to find an opt out. I also feel that some come home from college and stop training prior to going, plus if weather is an issue it will cause failure. SFT = LDAC for AFROTC is at Maxwell Alabama, Clarkson cadets from upstate NY will never have had the ability to train in 100 degree, 90% humidity. I get that.

I also understand through a kid in the woods and tell them to navigate back home with limited resources can be a big issue.

Same with medical turnbacks.

That being stated, PFT is the one issue they have control over when it comes to the unknown, but Marist is saying it is the largest cause.

Norwich, I agree Go Giants, but I am a realist, they are the underdog, and playing away. I would feel better even as an underdog if they were home...Giants fans are rabid, and the winds at the Meadowlands can be a make or break when it is just a few points, but away, I am not sure. Let's hope their momentum keeps them going!

 

[bruno]

Control what you can control and don't worry about the rest. The one thing for certain is that tomorrow will come. The world will be different 1,2 4 years from now. When one door closes more will open. One defeat will give rise to a later victory.

All of you enjoy today before tomorrow comes.

Especially today - Go Giants

Excellent advice - (except for the last little bit - 49ers and Patriots are wrapping things up today)

 

[NorwichDad]

Dumb question I know, but didn't the cadets with the low scoring PFT know that this might be an issue prior to going?

In other words did they comprehend that PFT was not for grins and giggles during the school yr? Or was this a training issue at their unit, where they didn't stress how intensive it would be at LDAC?

Just curious because as I understand it, AROTC cadets can go even up to their sr summer. I would imagine that the cadets that return in the fall as POCs can stress to the younger classes that PFT is not a joke, it can cause you to be dis-enrolled.

Again, I love learning, and this is about me understanding the system. My experience is AFROTC and we all know that means as far as AROTC I am equivalent to a hs candidate when it comes to the process from MSI to commissioning.

My assumption as an AFROTC cadet Mom, is based on the word assume, and that means I am assuming there is either an issue with the 5% that do not complete, majority APFT, or units not training them hard enough to succeed.

Let me state I believe some cadets will self-destruct on purpose to find an opt out. I also feel that some come home from college and stop training prior to going, plus if weather is an issue it will cause failure. SFT = LDAC for AFROTC is at Maxwell Alabama, Clarkson cadets from upstate NY will never have had the ability to train in 100 degree, 90% humidity. I get that.

I also understand through a kid in the woods and tell them to navigate back home with limited resources can be a big issue.

Same with medical turnbacks.

That being stated, PFT is the one issue they have control over when it comes to the unknown, but Marist is saying it is the largest cause.

Norwich, I agree Go Giants, but I am a realist, they are the underdog, and playing away. I would feel better even as an underdog if they were home...Giants fans are rabid, and the winds at the Meadowlands can be a make or break when it is just a few points, but away, I am not sure. Let's hope their momentum keeps them going!

PFT like GPA comes from within. There are obviously those with physical limitiations. Maybe they just physically cannot pass. My son was a twig in grammer school. He began lifting 5 times a week in high school. He ran daily. It came from within. He wanted to be in the best shape he could. At college he always over maxed the PT test. There are kids equal to him physically that just don't have that drive. I was that person 30 years ago. My father was more like him. He was a great college basketball player with an inner drive to succeed. He was offerd an NBA contract for $2,500 a year in 1951 which he declined. He rolls his eyes when he sees what they make now.

It's the same with GPA except for a chosen few. The kids who are organized, determined and hard working are the ones who succeed. A lot of them can manage their tiime so much better than most of the rest. A lot of it comes from within. I also know if they do not have it at 18 they may find it at 20 or 22. Don't give up on them.

Sorry guys

Giants 28 49ers 15. Time to go watch football

 

[Pima]

I agree they may find it later, but I guess my jist is from my perspective, the cadets know this is a big hurdle, and if you know that you know you can't take this as summer camp. You know this is a may be a make or break point for your career.

28 15 OMG, you really believe, or you know something...is it too late to place a bet over the phone in Vegas?

 

[Jcleppe]

Thanks for your responses, MissIndependence and NorwichDad

The remaining question is: If you fail, say, APFT or Land Navigation at LDAC, is your ROTC career kaput or do you get another chance?

It is really up to Cadet Command and those that run LDAC. If a cadet is deemed to have the potential to pass LDAC and they think he can correct the issues that caused the failure they can be given another chance to attend LDAC. I would imagine that it may be getting harder to get that second chance these days due to downsizing in the Army. Not passing the APFT can sneak up on a cadet, the grading is done by fresh 2LT's that were just commissioned the Spring before LDAC starts. The grading for the APFT has been historically very hard. Many Sgt's have complained that the grading should be done by Active or Reserve Non Com's instead of the 2lt's.

Cadets that have been getting 230, 240 APFT scores at school go to LDAC feeling confident that they will pass only to fail the first test due to PU's or SU's not counting. Cadets have been sent home for not passing the APFT that have never failed an APFT at school, so it's not always a given that the cadets goes to LDAC feeling unprepared. My son had the same issue, in 3 years of school his APFT never dipped below 315, at LDAC his APFT was 287, he maxed the run and SU's and had nearly 30 PU's not count, After the test a Sgt. that was watching looked at him and said "Damn, those all looked perfect to me' I hate this system". Cadets need to understand that they will probably not get the kind of scores at LDAC they get at school. These new LT's love to make a point at the cost of the cadets, they were victums of it so the new guys need to get the same treatment, and so it continues. A cadet may get lucky and get a standard grader that accounts for the cadets with the higher scores. In the end it can come down to luck.

 

[bruno]

Cadets that have been getting 230, 240 APFT scores at school go to LDAC...

There is the first problem in my book. If you are a cadet and you have a 230 - I wouldn't send you anywhere other than home because you are a "no-go" as a Lieutenant in the real Army with that kind of performance. Sorry- but this isn't kindergarden- it is the US ARMY and your job is mostly done with your legs and your back. If a 20 year old who presumably has been taking ROTC for 3 years can't come close to maxing those three events - then they don't belong in the Army and they sure don't have any standing to complain. There may or may not be much of a correlation between a 3.5 GPA and a good Lt (and I don't think there is much as there is a long history of class goats becoming stellar officers), and you may or many not have many opportunities to work on night land nav on your own (land nav courses vary a lot depending on the terrain and vegetation) so I can understand cutting a Land Nav failure some slack- but PT? It's all you and if you aren't close to maxing by this time- then I would not want you as a Lieutenant in my Battalion. Kid yourself if you want that mine isn't the prevailing view in the real Army- but I believe that if Scoutpilot chimes in here- he will be echoing this reality. So get off your butt and PT hard on your own - the 3 event PT test is one that anyone can train for with no additional resources required. Run!!! Pushups and situps at the start and end of the day and PUSH YOURSELF to failure! between now and June every kid going to LDAC should be able to get their score to 300+ and keep it there.

 

[Jcleppe]

There is the first problem in my book. If you are a cadet and you have a 230 - I wouldn't send you anywhere other than home because you are a "no-go" as a Lieutenant in the real Army with that kind of performance. Sorry- but this isn't kindergarden- it is the US ARMY and your job is mostly done with your legs and your back. If a 20 year old who presumably has been taking ROTC for 3 years can't come close to maxing those three events - then they don't belong in the Army and they sure don't have any standing to complain. There may or may not be much of a correlation between a 3.5 GPA and a good Lt (and I don't think there is much as there is a long history of class goats becoming stellar officers), and you may or many not have many opportunities to work on night land nav on your own (land nav courses vary a lot depending on the terrain and vegetation) so I can understand cutting a Land Nav failure some slack- but PT? It's all you and if you aren't close to maxing by this time- then I would not want you as a Lieutenant in my Battalion. Kid yourself if you want that mine isn't the prevailing view in the real Army- but I believe that if Scoutpilot chimes in here- he will be echoing this reality. So get off your butt and PT hard on your own - the 3 event PT test is one that anyone can train for with no additional resources required. Run!!! Pushups and situps at the start and end of the day and PUSH YOURSELF to failure! between now and June every kid going to LDAC should be able to get their score to 300+ and keep it there.

I couldn't agree with you more on this. A 230 or 240 while passing will not do much for a cadet when it comes time for the OMS score. I think too many cadets go to LDAC thinking they just need to pass and not much more and that is sad.

My son went to his CTLT the day after LDAC, he was assigned to the 82nd Airborne at Ft. Bragg. The first day he arravived he was sent into the field to meet up with the Company that was in training. He told us the second day out they had a scheduled APFT. Now my son is tall, 6-5 196lbs, at first look he doesn't look like he would be maxing the APFT. The Capt. told him if he wanted any shred of respect from the Platoon he needed to do well. He took the test and scored a 322, it spoke volumns for him. The importance of a good APFT can not be underscored at all.

My point in using the 230 to 240 score was just to point out that if cadet has a score that low going to LDAC the chance of failure is high. I in no way meant to imply that those scores were acceptable even if passing.

 

[Aglahad]

I couldn't agree with you more on this. A 230 or 240 while passing will not do much for a cadet when it comes time for the OMS score. I think too many cadets go to LDAC thinking they just need to pass and not much more and that is sad.

My son went to his CTLT the day after LDAC, he was assigned to the 82nd Airborne at Ft. Bragg. The first day he arravived he was sent into the field to meet up with the Company that was in training. He told us the second day out they had a scheduled APFT. Now my son is tall, 6-5 196lbs, at first look he doesn't look like he would be maxing the APFT. The Capt. told him if he wanted any shred of respect from the Platoon he needed to do well. He took the test and scored a 322, it spoke volumns for him. The importance of a good APFT can not be underscored at all.

My point in using the 230 to 240 score was just to point out that if cadet has a score that low going to LDAC the chance of failure is high. I in no way meant to imply that those scores were acceptable even if passing.

Exactly, I showed up to my cavalry unit at Ft. Carson (its heat and lovely altitude) and expected to take a PT test after literally a month of no PT. I maxed PU/SU but my run gained 2 minutes..... Even with that gain in run time I was still around 285 and far ahead of 99% of the PLT including the LT. Physical fitness isn't everything, but my observations concluded that it was very important. Our first day we had a run with the squadron commander, it wasn't a quick run but the altitude made it seem 100% harder. There was one cadet who fell out (it was just cadets, the SCO and LTs running) and he was branded in a negative light for the rest of the time there.

PT tests are important but I will always preach that just because you are some 3 event stud, it does NOT mean you are in any form of the phrase "in shape".

You can not imagine how ridiculous some of the fresh 2LTs are. I had some double stacked brand new infantry LT who was so meticulous it was almost laughable. I was dumbfounded that I lost about 10 push ups. I think AD NCOs should be doing the grading, no offense to some of the stellar reserve NCOs there but I wasn't impressed by a lot of them.

A score of 230-240 is about 20 points below the average even at LDAC. At that level you are screwed especially if push ups are a problem area.

Is your career kaput? No, but if you fail a couple events and your GPA blows your AD career might already be in the rear view mirror....Most the no gos with an option to return next year were because of LN and medical reasons from what I saw. You don't want to be that MSIV who failed LDAC though...

 

[Packer]

I am sure if you guys were running Cadet Command you would get things set straight so far as minimum PT scores. Come on Cadet Command get with the show this is the real army!

 

[patentesq]

Control what you can control and don't worry about the rest. The one thing for certain is that tomorrow will come. The world will be different 1,2 4 years from now. When one door closes more will open. One defeat will give rise to a later victory.

All of you enjoy today before tomorrow comes.

Especially today - Go Giants

Respectfully, I do not recommend this approach insofar as it suggests that people cannnot control their own destiny. If you want to control your destiny, you must set the standard (not follow it). Visionaries are in front of the pack and not in the middle of it.

There will be plenty of people (watch, you'll see) who will do exactly what is expected and this won't be enough. True visionaries anticipate what the obstacles lie in the road and prepare themselves to meet those obstacles.

For example, if any aspiring cadet is currently deciding between SA/SMC and ROTC at a regular college, and they want to gain an edge to obtain an active duty slot, they MUST think about where things will be in 4 years, including things that they cannot control (Presidential election, national budget, recession in Europe, etc.). Visionaries decide what is really important to them and how -- given the circumstances -- they can best position themselves for success to achieve their end goals Those who refuse to think about the uncertain future, or what the road looks like ahead, are in for a rude awakening.

Thinking about the future even extends to what major a cadet elects to pursue. In my view, and I know many will disagree, I firmly believe that every college student must at least think about the job market upon graduation in four years, even though they cannot control it. Those who simply live for today are making a HUGE mistake in my book.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, people actually do have a LOT of control over things they cannot control and how they shape their future.

 

[Jcleppe]

I am sure if you guys were running Cadet Command you would get things set straight so far as minimum PT scores. Come on Cadet Command get with the show this is the real army!

Not quite sure what you were getting at, did like the rolling eyes though.

 

[Packer]

There is the first problem in my book. If you are a cadet and you have a 230 - I wouldn't send you anywhere other than home because you are a "no-go" as a Lieutenant in the real Army with that kind of performance. Sorry- but this isn't kindergarden- it is the US ARMY and your job is mostly done with your legs and your back. If a 20 year old who presumably has been taking ROTC for 3 years can't come close to maxing those three events - then they don't belong in the Army and they sure don't have any standing to complain.

Not quite sure what you were getting at, did like the rolling eyes though.

Jcleppe, the sarcasm was not directed at you and probably should have been left unsaid or at the very least have been more targeted.
If the Army thought 230 was completely unacceptable it would not be a passing score. I would agree it is not a score too be proud of but the Army makes the rules.

 

[Jcleppe]

Jcleppe, the sarcasm was not directed at you and probably should have been left unsaid or at the very least have been more targeted.
If the Army thought 230 was completely unacceptable it would not be a passing score. I would agree it is not a score too be proud of but the Army makes the rules.

Sure can't argue with you about that,

 

[bruno]

Yes the Army makes the rules and according to the chart a 230 would be a "C" in college grading terms- but frankly IMHO anyone cheesy enough to say "I met the minimum standard" has no business being there. You can like that opinion or not, but there is a huge difference between getting by and doing your job and you will discover the difference when you get your first OER if you haven't learned it when you show up. All the guardhouse lawyers in the world won't save you because you are evaluated on the rater and senior rater's opinions and they will be comparing you against their ideal and against their other Lieutenants. You can of course wander blithely off into your Army career (or for that matter in industry) and believe that good things will happen as long as you can say that you met the minimum- (whether it is a PT test, or the weight standard, or any of the other myriad tests and tasks that you will have). Reality will feel like a wet fish slapping you in the face though. The mating cry of the marginal is : "it's not fair". But it is fair- you just need to understand reality.
So my advice- forget what TRADOC put on the grading chart for minimum passing scores, focus on the max line and get your butt out on the track and run and run and run: 3- 5 miles with fartleks interspersed throughout those runs. Start knocking off pushups & situps multiple times a day. (And there are lots of things you should be doing not PT test specific). THERE is no excuse for you to show up to LDAC or your first unit with anything other than a legit 300 and there really shouldn't be any crocodile tears shed for an ROTC cadet who shows up to LDAC in a shrinking Army with a barely acceptable PT score when they get a "tough grader".

It's an opinion- you can agree or not, but I think you are making a mistake if you don't drive yourself to max the things that are in your control and the number one thing on that list of stuff you can control completely is your PT score.

 

[NorwichDad]

I couldn't agree with you more on this. A 230 or 240 while passing will not do much for a cadet when it comes time for the OMS score. I think too many cadets go to LDAC thinking they just need to pass and not much more and that is sad.

My son went to his CTLT the day after LDAC, he was assigned to the 82nd Airborne at Ft. Bragg. The first day he arravived he was sent into the field to meet up with the Company that was in training. He told us the second day out they had a scheduled APFT. Now my son is tall, 6-5 196lbs, at first look he doesn't look like he would be maxing the APFT. The Capt. told him if he wanted any shred of respect from the Platoon he needed to do well. He took the test and scored a 322, it spoke volumns for him. The importance of a good APFT can not be underscored at all.

My point in using the 230 to 240 score was just to point out that if cadet has a score that low going to LDAC the chance of failure is high. I in no way meant to imply that those scores were acceptable even if passing.

My son graduated from an Army School at Ft Knox a few years ago. A two star general commented on that on the Army's estimation less than 25% of the country's population could pass minimal PT standards for the Army.

I think the above quote from Jcleppe is an important post with regard to gaining respect from those you would command.

My son says he runs for miles through the Vermont Mountains with 70 pounds on his back. (This is a faculty mentored club with all safety consideration made) He says after a few miles it becomes a mental rather than physical thing. It is a matter of compusure for your self in front of those you would lead. I think with the downsizing is also about composure. He did score high on OML and with his school work. Congress may set a line he may fall below this year or in the future. He cannot control that. He does the best he can and if this door shuts or will ever shut, more will open. The experience of ROTC has helped him regardless. You just cant worry about what DOD or Congress does.

 

[Packer]

Yes the Army makes the rules and according to the chart a 230 would be a "C" in college grading terms- but frankly IMHO anyone cheesy enough to say "I met the minimum standard" has no business being there. You can like that opinion or not, but there is a huge difference between getting by and doing your job and you will discover the difference when you get your first OER if you haven't learned it when you show up. All the guardhouse lawyers in the world won't save you because you are evaluated on the rater and senior rater's opinions and they will be comparing you against their ideal and against their other Lieutenants. You can of course wander blithely off into your Army career (or for that matter in industry) and believe that good things will happen as long as you can say that you met the minimum- (whether it is a PT test, or the weight standard, or any of the other myriad tests and tasks that you will have). Reality will feel like a wet fish slapping you in the face though. The mating cry of the marginal is : "it's not fair". But it is fair- you just need to understand reality.
So my advice- forget what TRADOC put on the grading chart for minimum passing scores, focus on the max line and get your butt out on the track and run and run and run: 3- 5 miles with fartleks interspersed throughout those runs. Start knocking off pushups & situps multiple times a day. (And there are lots of things you should be doing not PT test specific). THERE is no excuse for you to show up to LDAC or your first unit with anything other than a legit 300 and there really shouldn't be any crocodile tears shed for an ROTC cadet who shows up to LDAC in a shrinking Army with a barely acceptable PT score when they get a "tough grader".

It's an opinion- you can agree or not, but I think you are making a mistake if you don't drive yourself to max the things that are in your control and the number one thing on that list of stuff you can control completely is your PT score.

I don't disagree with you and also believe that anyone trying to just get by is likely to fail. Just getting by is not good enough.
If the standard is moved to 300 would you say anyone not making at least 330 needs to go home? The Army set the values that they determined were adequate and they could care less what I think or what you think.

 

[Ohio2015Parent]

There have been a lot of great points brought up on this thread - thanks to all of you who continue to contribute to my military education

DS's school will not send a cadet to LDAC with anything lower than a 270, they train for this starting as MS1(Ms1 must have 70-70-70, MS2 80-80-80 and then MS3 90-90-90). Now since the graders at LDAC are known to be tough, I could see how a cadet with a 270 could get busted down to a 240-250...but agree, form is within the cadets control and should be mastered well before LDAC.

His school hosted a big prospective cadets weekend and he had multiple kids staying in the dorm. At the parent meeting(MS1's attend too) PMS stated that they only have 6 scholarships for 2016(down from 8 this year and 17 for 2014)and roughly 20 contracts total for that year as well.

At least DS seems to understand his situation and has been busy building a plan to maximize his abilities and factor for the constantly changing path forward. Its a wild ride for sure

 

[Jcleppe]

I don't disagree with you and also believe that anyone trying to just get by is likely to fail. Just getting by is not good enough.
If the standard is moved to 300 would you say anyone not making at least 330 needs to go home? The Army set the values that they determined were adequate and they could care less what I think or what you think.

I think we forget sometimes that the APFT grading scale is set for the entire Regular Army. The scale used to mark success and failure for Academy and ROTC cadets while the same is raised to reflect higher standards. A 230 will be checked as a "Go" in the regular Army while a cadet with the same score may be held back from attending LDAC, any summer training, or even worse not recommended for AD even though by Army regulations they are passing. My son's battalion will not consider any cadet for summer training with a APFT below 280, the average score of those that actually attend the schools is closer to 300. The funny thing is, and this is where I'll differ from Bruno is that at Airborne the students that usually fail the APFT and are sent home are "Regular Army"

I will still agree that an Officer should always try and be at the high end of the average if not the highest in regard to PT. Leadership should set the bar and it should be high.

The Army has struggled as well as other services for years to keep their soldiers and sailors to high physical standards, I think we would all be a bit surprised if we saw the Average APFT scores for all Regular Army personell, all the better reason to strive for the max and lead by example.

 

[Jcleppe]

There have been a lot of great points brought up on this thread - thanks to all of you who continue to contribute to my military education

DS's school will not send a cadet to LDAC with anything lower than a 270, they train for this starting as MS1(Ms1 must have 70-70-70, MS2 80-80-80 and then MS3 90-90-90). Now since the graders at LDAC are known to be tough, I could see how a cadet with a 270 could get busted down to a 240-250...but agree, form is within the cadets control and should be mastered well before LDAC.

His school hosted a big prospective cadets weekend and he had multiple kids staying in the dorm. At the parent meeting(MS1's attend too) PMS stated that they only have 6 scholarships for 2016(down from 8 this year and 17 for 2014)and roughly 20 contracts total for that year as well.

At least DS seems to understand his situation and has been busy building a plan to maximize his abilities and factor for the constantly changing path forward. Its a wild ride for sure

The only issue I have about "Form" is that a cadet who has been doing the PU's and SU's for 3 years at their battalion and has been told by the cadre that their form is correct go to LDAC only to be told the form is not to the graders standards. The cadet has done everything in their power to adhere to the form that was taught and graded by their battalion. Either the battalions are slack on grading or LDAC graders are over stepping, either way there needs to be a way to bring the two closer together.

Sounds like you DS is working hard, I wish him the best of luck.