If you had a choice between recoupment and enlistment?

One of my classmates at the Air Force Academy was deemed not fit to be commissioned the week before graduation. This person was forced to go enlisted. Most of my classmates would probably agree that this was a good decision, because she was not a good leader. She never did anything blatantly wrong...just not officer material. However, to wait so long was unfair to the individual. However, she did get her degree. At least that was worth something.

BTW, this happened 20 years ago. I would bet this wasn't the first or last time this happened.

To the OP, I can't imagine what you are going through. My DD has also applied for an AROTC scholarship at a private university. It is starting to make me rethink this choice.
 
If you are unfit to be an officer then let it be so. I have a friend who was dead set on being an active duty officer, but was referred into being a reservist officer by our PMS. The PMS and other officers know what it takes to be one, if they see it in you then appreciate the chance you get. If not, then take it with a grain of salt and be the best officer or person you can be to ensure any doubt when arriving to your unit. Don't get me wrong, there are great officers in reserve units, but many are referred into being a reserve officer because they are 'unfit' for active duty.
 
AscoreD said:
If you are unfit to be an officer then let it be so. I have a friend who was dead set on being an active duty officer, but was referred into being a reservist officer by our PMS. The PMS and other officers know what it takes to be one, if they see it in you then appreciate the chance you get. If not, then take it with a grain of salt and be the best officer or person you can be to ensure any doubt when arriving to your unit. Don't get me wrong, there are great officers in reserve units, but many are referred into being a reserve officer because they are 'unfit' for active duty.
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Just out of curiosity was the cadet below the AD cutoff on the OML.
 
No she wasn't. She was high enough for AD. She didn't get the PMS's blessings for active.
 
No she wasn't. She was high enough for AD. She didn't get the PMS's blessings for active.
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As it should be. Too many folks on here seem to look at these as decisions that can and should be reduced to a simple automated calculation- if you are top 5% of HS class with >3.6 GPA and 2000 SAT you should get the Scholarship because you will be a better leader than the kid who scores lower (but demonstrates a number of other leadership characteristics). Go thru college with a 3.5 GPA and you can pass the PT test - you will be a good officer. It just doesn't work that way- at the end the best predictor of how they will perform as an officer is the physical observation and evaluation of the chain of command. So I am glad to hear that somebody apparently did what they were paid to do in the case of your acquaintance and delivered the bad news rather than pass them on to some unsuspecting unit.
I have to say that I don't believe the premise of the original posting- that in the last semester of college their Midshipman was disenrolled for unspecified reasons and the student is now liable to repay the scholarhip. If that is the case - then there is more than the OP is saying- either knowingly or unknowingly. Specifically- I would suspect that if the Mid was dis-enrolled and he is now on the hook to repay- then either the original paperwork was fraudulent, or there was willful misconduct involved because otherwise this is at the convenience of the Navy and they will not seek to recoup the investment.
 
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Bruno,

I am the OP and the mother of said MIDN.

I have seen the file and the disenrollment report. Can I interpret exactly the motivation for the disenrollment by command? No...which is why I am here. I can't divulge too much, because we have retained counsel.

When he talked to unit, they wouldn't give him the option for enlistment.

Yes...it was the last semester.
 
^ I'll bet there was something TANGIBLE, not just subjective evaluation, that led to this action. Mind you, I feel for your predicament and the financial disruption for many years that this action will entail. I don't know what I'd do in your place other than what you are doing... appealing with Counsel. If this is the case, that there was something tangible, measurable that was missing, it doesn't do any good to us or you to have an open internet discussion without all the relevant facts... we're just guessing and I'm not sure what you could possible benefit from this other than the fact that we feel for you and wish you the best outcome in your appeal.
 
dunninla,

My original intention for starting this thread was asking for advice - what others might do if given the option between an enlistment and a recoupment. Like every other thread, it has taken on a tangent. People join the conversation and offer their perspectives, ask questions, etc. It often takes on a life of it's own. Not everyone reads through all the posts and so context is often lost.

A specific reason was given for disenrollment and the timing was unfortunate for my kid. If posting this can enlighten others who may be facing a similar situation, than I guess it does some good, even not to my family's situation. For us, pardon the pun, but that ship sailed. The very real possibility is that my son has no future Navy career, neither as an officer or enlisted. Whether or not he will be able to transfer to another line of service is also improbable. The appeal is in and all we can do is wait now.

If I had seen this thread a year ago - or even a semester ago - I might have been able to warn my kid what could go wrong, so he could not make that mistake.

We were naiive. We assumed all was well and never saw the contract our son signed. We never read the "fine print". I can safely say that my son never guessed he would be one of those that might not receive a commission.
 
Gojira said:
A specific reason was given ... If I had seen this thread a year ago - or even a semester ago - I might have been able to warn my kid what could go wrong, so he could not make that mistake. .
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OK, I agree with that intention. It is important then, when all the dust has settled, be that in a week, or ten weeks, for you to come back to this thread and update future mids/cadets what the "specific reason" was, so that indeed this thread will be educational to future mids/cadets. I understand why you cannot post that specific information at this time due to your appeal. Best of luck to you and your son in that appeal.
 
I think we all owe gojira a debt of gratitude for sharing this story as a warning for all of us, parents and cadets alike.

It's not easy to share a painful story of one's kid's predicament. It takes a courage to do so.

gojira, thanks for sharing your insight and experience. I hope your son's case will be successfully resolved. You shared me the detail in PM, and I am astounded by the way his case was handled. The cadre should realize that regardless of the reason and what not (though the reason sounded really flimsy), they are dealing with a young man barely out of the teens and his dream for the future. They should have been far more professional and compassionate in the way they handled this even if the outcome might have been the same. I am really puzzled by their handling which sounds really callous and cavalier.
 
Time out for a second, and for many reasons.

1. It took Gojira great strength to announce publicly what is occurring privately in their life.

What they decide to share either way, we, as posters should be thankful for their willingness to share and not question if there is something more to the story.

We should respect each other. Their life experience helps this site.

2. It disheartens me that the OP is not getting our support.

I feel immense emotion over their treatment from posters, because I assured them of how this site is about supporting, guiding and directing each other. I played a hand in them publicly posting a heart wrenching time in their child's life.

Maybe Gojira's DS brought it on, maybe he didn't. That is not our place to ask or determine, nor should we care.

Gojira poured their heart out hoping to give guidance to others. They had no ulterior motive than just to give a head's up to other candidates, cadets/mids and their parents on what they are dealing with now, as a parent facing a child they may be forced to enlist or pay back the scholarship.

We should all be thankful to learn that the bad out there exists, and the reason why doesn't really matter, does it? The fact that there is 1 poster here with current knowledge as a 12 mid knows the pitfalls we should embrace and thank because their experience is an asset.

3. I have known Gojira for @ 4 yrs, not on this forum, but another one. I will not betray their trust, but I will vouch for them. (Notice I do not say he/she...that is how far I will go).

I know their child is not an academic slouch, actuality is for their degree graduating ahead of time compared to their peers (sorry gojira if that steps over the line). We are not discussing a 2.5 cgpa over 4 yrs.

I know that their child thought he did everything correct to maintain the parameters that were set forth when he contracted. This is truly a loss to the Navy, and IMPO it all came down to current manpower needs. Back in 07/08 when he went into the system he, nor his parents could have predicted the budget crunch when it was his yr for commissioning.

I have stated this often to many posters, and Gojira, their military career is part them, and part timing. It wasn't his fault he was born a yr or 2 late, because if he graduated back in 11 this would not have occurred.

I know that this post seems harsh, but let's be honest we are seeing now a lot more "Gojiras'" because every ROTC branch is looking for a way to cut.

I truly hope we didn't lose Gojira because of in their time of need/support they felt this community didn't support them and questioned what they may be hiding. Let's be honest, hiring an attorney that specializes in military law is not cheap, and even if you had 10's of thousands hanging around in your checking account you wouldn't do it...remember the choice is pay back the loan or enlist. 10's of thousands would mean you could pay the loan back without them enlisting. Use logic of why you would pay for an attorney if paying was an option and your could afford it...you wouldn't. Instead, you would place yourself deeper in debt to fight.

This site, these candidates, cadets/mids and parents will lose an invaluable asset if we did. If you want insight of how all 4 yrs in the system can make or break you, you want posters like Gojira. OBTW as an AFROTC mom, at our DS's school, they dis-enrolled scholarship cadets that were not selected. Bad things happen.

Gojira, PLEASE, PLEASE stick around, now more than ever these posters need to have you as a voice/guidance.
 
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^^^ Pima, I wholeheartedly agree. I think there were a few folks who posted that were totally insensitive. I remember asking gojira to please post the outcome so we can all learn from it which, as far as I'm concerned, is the purpose of these forums. I can only hope that the insensitive folks didn't read through the entire thread which lead to their callousness.

Thanks for your excellent post.
 
Pima,
Thank you for posting this. The line of questioning and near accusations that showed up in this thread were plain rude.

Gojira, thank you for sharing and good luck.
 
Don't thank me, pray and hope that Gojira will post again so every cadet/mid, candidate and parent can learn how 4 yrs on scholarship ended within days/weeks of graduation.

Again IMPO, the facts I know Gojira was smart to obtain an attorney in this day and age anything stated on the net is a free for all. They are not trying to hide anything by not disclosing here on this forum, they are following what they have been told legally by an attorney. Caveat: Gojira has not told me this, but it makes logical sense that the opposing counsel will obtain all of their correspondences, including a site like this.

Gojira is doing it right, they are acknowledging their heart ache for posters and protecting their child. They are saying beware.

If you believe in my position, please copy and post this; fill in after ....

GOJIRA ...

I'll starrt

GOJIRA

Thank you, even though DS is slated to commission May 2012, it made me stress to him until he raises his hand and says:

I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

That nothing should be taken as fact.
 
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Thanks for your kind words.

I am a she - thanks Pima for protecting my gender, btw.

There are few guarantees in this world. I tend to not assume things are a done deal until they are done, but this one caught us by surprise. In hindsight, we should have just been aware that until you state that oath, you are still playing the game to win it. And if you aren't careful, you can lose it. Even at the end.

One thing that I know - regardless of whether or not my kid ends up in the Navy - he is still an exceptional person, with fine leadership traits that will see him successful in his chosen profession. He is also young, and in time may see that this is just an obstacle that will make him work hard.

Kids make mistakes all the time. The ones my son made didn't seem like they would ultimately harm his career objectives in the Navy, and seemed like minor issues. However, even if he had, like any other parent, I would still stand by and still support him through the difficult times ahead.

There are those in ROTC units around the country that will find themselves being disenrolled over grades, or a DUI, or PT or leadership aptitude. They may log in here looking for support or advice or just a shoulder to lean on, with people who understand the situation. Those outside of the military and ROTC cannot comprehend what we are going through and this forum is a great support system with helpful folks who get it.
 
Gojira said:
Thanks for your kind words.


One thing that I know - regardless of whether or not my kid ends up in the Navy - he is still an exceptional person, with fine leadership traits that will see him successful in his chosen profession. He is also young, and in time may see that this is just an obstacle that will make him work hard.

.
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I agree your kid is an very fine and exceptional person. Another thing about him, He has a very exceptional mother.

Good Luck and Best Wishes
 
Gojira said:
Thanks for your kind words.

I am a she - thanks Pima for protecting my gender, btw.

There are few guarantees in this world. I tend to not assume things are a done deal until they are done, but this one caught us by surprise. In hindsight, we should have just been aware that until you state that oath, you are still playing the game to win it. And if you aren't careful, you can lose it. Even at the end.

One thing that I know - regardless of whether or not my kid ends up in the Navy - he is still an exceptional person, with fine leadership traits that will see him successful in his chosen profession. He is also young, and in time may see that this is just an obstacle that will make him work hard.

Kids make mistakes all the time. The ones my son made didn't seem like they would ultimately harm his career objectives in the Navy, and seemed like minor issues. However, even if he had, like any other parent, I would still stand by and still support him through the difficult times ahead.

There are those in ROTC units around the country that will find themselves being disenrolled over grades, or a DUI, or PT or leadership aptitude. They may log in here looking for support or advice or just a shoulder to lean on, with people who understand the situation. Those outside of the military and ROTC cannot comprehend what we are going through and this forum is a great support system with helpful folks who get it.
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GOJIRA,
Thanks for posting back. I couldn't agree more with your thoughts about kids making mistakes; and you actions as feelings as a parent. I hope I can do as well, and be as brave, as you should/when we encounter similar circumstances. If its not NROTC it will be something else. Seems like they always inadvertantly mess up. My families prayers and with you and your family. We hope you have a successful outcome.
 
Pima, is this what you meant?

GOJIRA

Pima
kinnem

GOJIRA
 
Gojira

you have my families best wishes and warmest thoughts. your objective to help other famiies understand what can lie ahead of them is selfless to say in the least. I for one, am better informed and able to advise my DS on some of the pitfalls that are out there. if there is one thing that is so impressive to me is that all of those sons and daughter involved in ROTC regardless of scholarship, represent the very best this nation has to offer. thank you again-God Bless
 
Kinnem,

I couldn't care less how it is posted as long as Gojira sticks around.

PIMA
Kinnem
mgguy

mgguy I took the luxury to add you.

FWIW, candidates, mids, parents of each, add your name because if Gojira leaves who will be your voice of experience when it is you pr your child?

Like I said I know Gojira, she is not only rational, but experienced and let's be real she hired a military attorney for her DS because she is not stupid.

Do you want advice for your child from another candidate or a freshman in the system, or from someone that lived it this yr as a parent of a mid and has done for 4 yrs?

I choose guidance which equals experience, and that means as far as candidates and their opinions they go in the circular filing cabinet.
 
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