KP least competitive service academy?

deepsea said:
If you make it to KP I'd advise keeping this to yourself. Any cadet I had aboard my ships who told me some version of this was in for a rough trip. I'd try for a bit to change thier perspective, but after that it was not worth my time to teach someone my trade without any interest on thier part. Ship's officers have plenty of work to do without helping out a disinterested cadet.
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Absolutely. I didn't say I was going to go around and proclaim that I didn't want to be a merchant marine officer lol. Why, did those cadets just come out and say it, or did you ask them?...And anyways, I plan on being open minded about the things I learn, because every single scrap of knowledge is useful; it may even save the lives of my team or my life.
 
Curious

Samaca10, Why would you want to go to KP and do all that is required to obtain a license you have no interest in? You can go to almost any school and get a comission through ROTC. I'm curious why you would be interested in a school thats primary mission is to prepare professional mariners?
 
With All Due Respect - Please Stop....

SamAca10 said:
No offense to anyone, but I don't want to be an officer in the merchant marine. One thing that got me interested in KP was the fact that they could keep their options open...:biggrin:
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Sam:

If you definitely don't want to be an officier in the Merchant Marine, I personally don't think you should be trying to get into KP. You probably won't be happy there at all.

Providing leaders for the US Flag Merchant Marine really is the primary reason for KP's existance as well as the State Maritime Academy's too. Each year they all together produce a paltry ~1500 or so liscenced mariners for the needs of the US Merchant fleet. A fleet that is part of a world commerce network vital to our national interests. That number is about equal to the number of graduates from just one of the other Service Academies for the larger brances of service (West Point, Annapolis, or USAFA). In addition those serviecs also have options that lead to commissions that include numerous ROTC programs. And finally there are Enlisted to Commission programs.

As a KP grad, I respectfully point out that those other options are all geared to PRIMARILY produce what apparently you want to become. If you KNOW now you don't even want to consider a life as a merchant marinier then please don't attempt to take one of the few (~300 slots) from the 1699+ folks who are open to the possibility and want to apply. I'd recommend you avail yourself of those other avenues, you'll probably be much happier with the results.

Finally, from your posts you've had and are clearly having doubts - there's probably lots of reasons for those feelings that are well founded on your part based on this last post.
 
To clear us confusion

yogijer said:
Samaca10, Why would you want to go to KP and do all that is required to obtain a license you have no interest in? You can go to almost any school and get a comission through ROTC. I'm curious why you would be interested in a school thats primary mission is to prepare professional mariners?
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Well, two reasons yogijer: 1. The United States Coast Guard does not have a ROTC program. This is the service that I am leaning toward the most, and have leaned toward for the past 7 months. KP would be a GREAT way to earn a commission in the Coast Guard, all the while I would gain valuable, hands on experience. 2. If life is measured my experiences, KP midshipman certainly enjoy life. I find the idea of Sea Year to be a great adventure, filled with, again, hands on experience and plenty of things to see and explore
 
jasperdog said:
Sam:

If you definitely don't want to be an officier in the Merchant Marine, I personally don't think you should be trying to get into KP. You probably won't be happy there at all.

Providing leaders for the US Flag Merchant Marine really is the primary reason for KP's existance as well as the State Maritime Academy's too. Each year they all together produce a paltry ~1500 or so liscenced mariners for the needs of the US Merchant fleet. A fleet that is part of a world commerce network vital to our national interests. That number is about equal to the number of graduates from just one of the other Service Academies for the larger brances of service (West Point, Annapolis, or USAFA). In addition those serviecs also have options that lead to commissions that include numerous ROTC programs. And finally there are Enlisted to Commission programs.

As a KP grad, I respectfully point out that those other options are all geared to PRIMARILY produce what apparently you want to become. If you KNOW now you don't even want to consider a life as a merchant marinier then please don't attempt to take one of the few (~300 slots) from the 1699+ folks who are open to the possibility and want to apply. I'd recommend you avail yourself of those other avenues, you'll probably be much happier with the results.

Finally, from your posts you've had and are clearly having doubts - there's probably lots of reasons for those feelings that are well founded on your part based on this last post.
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Jasperdog, what about the Coast Guard? That is the service that I am most interested in, and it does not have a ROTC program...I believe the USCG has a direct commissioning program for those who have graduated from KP and state maritime academies, am I correct? In addition, like I said in my last post, I believe that the experienced gained at KP can be useful in a variety of ways...hands on experience, different forms of leadership, KP mids even get to experience what it's like to be on the other side of customs...and haven't their been numerous people who've applied to KP who have considered Navy and Coast Guard anyways?

Very Respectfully,
SamAca10
 
Sam- I am not sure that I would agree with Jasperdog here. The truth is that more KP grads than not do not become professional sailors. In fact it has only been in the last 5 years that they really started enforcing the requirements that they sail on their tickets or go into -the military. Before the last maritime administrator they had this nebulous out which only required them to be employed in the maritime industry afloat or ashore. So clearly devotion to the merchant marine isn't what drives someone to KP. It may, but you wouldn't be the only guy there by a long shot who has not much interest in being a 3rd mate or 3 engineer on one of the relative handful of US Flag ships that are still in the trade. Instead- what you could look at KP as - is an excellent leadership training ground for an officer in one of the Maritime Services- one in which you will become much more prepared for some of the technical hands on challenges of a junior officer aboard a ship. I guarantee that you will know as an Ensign the intricate workings of engineering spaces or the bridge- Neither USNA nor USCG graduates will have been trained and given an internship that approaches the level that USMMA midshipmen will have experienced in their year at sea- which in my opinion is a huge advantage. Is that all there is to leadership? Hell no- but Sailors respect a leader who not only knows that there is a problem, but can fix it themselves which seems to me to be one heck of a huge advantage to young Ensign Snuffy USMMA '14 now aboard the USCGC RustBucket.
I guess what I am trying to say is that USMMA will prepare you well for a career in numerous fields including the USCG and do so with a really cool set of out of the ordinary adventures mixed into the equation with sea years. I think that this would be a great place for someone to go if they are interested in a career in the USCG. -BTW if you really are sure you want to be in the USCG you also should be applying to the USCGA as the primary- it is their principle source for officers and is definietely the "mainstream" officer paths- more so in the USCG than any other service.
 
Options?

Options....that hits my hot button. My experience with the service academies, is that young folks wanting options....lead to the folks that "opt" to go elsewhere vice graduating from a SA. Therefore, keeping a more motivated person from attending. An opportunity to "go to sea" is very special and takes a "special" person...(whye Sea Year at USMMA). USMMA will prepare you to join the ranks of being a Merchant Mariner. Please do not take a "slot" if you are searching for the meaning of life....try Smith.
 
Well there are options that should hit your hot button (for example having career aspirations as an author or accountant who never sees the ocean again) and then ones that are not only legitimate, well established but ultimately may be the saving grace for the school. If you are implying that the only legitimate reason for going to KP is to serve as an officer in the Sea Going US Flag Maritime industry you probably are signing a death warrant for the school because the future of that industry is bleak and getting bleaker every day- there is virtually no US Flag Sea Going Maritime industry outside MSC and a couple of ships flagged for Jones Act traffic- & it gets smaller every year. We may be importing more by the Sea every year but that stuff isn't coming in US bottoms. So-if you are arguing that the sole product of USMMA is licensed mariners sailing on their licenses- sooner rather than later people will look at this and decide that we don't really need a Federal academy to crew an industry that at this point is more about port facilities and intracoastal articulated Tugs and Barges than about International Ocean going vessels.
Fortunately USMMA can base its continued utility and existence on a much bigger need- which it fills by providing first class training of sea going leaders whether they are in Private industry or Government Service. 58 (30%) of the class of 2009 went on active duty including 19 on active duty with the USCG. It seems like a pretty legitimate option for someone who is interested in the USCG as a career- (SAMA is asking about this specifically) and there are a pretty significant number of USCG officers who got their start at USMMA so he would be far from alone in choosing that as a career path out of KP.

rexbob said:
Options....that hits my hot button. My experience with the service academies, is that young folks wanting options....lead to the folks that "opt" to go elsewhere vice graduating from a SA. Therefore, keeping a more motivated person from attending. An opportunity to "go to sea" is very special and takes a "special" person...(whye Sea Year at USMMA). USMMA will prepare you to join the ranks of being a Merchant Mariner. Please do not take a "slot" if you are searching for the meaning of life....try Smith.
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as far as the people that "opt out" rather than graduating. yes you do see that occasionally, i can think of 3-4 of my classmates that did that. however, most people here are here for the long haul. if you're not serious about this place it will swallow you alive.
besides, in all honesty, how many 17 year old high school kids fully, honestly, know what they're going to do with the rest of their lives?
KP is a great place to figure that out. you will spend time at sea (which is incredible by the way), you'll learn all kinds of things about the most off-the-wall topics and situations.
bottom line is if you want it, take it. ultimately it's your life, and no one else's. if you want to go to KP, even if people don't like your reasons, and you graduate, then make it your story. if your reasons are slightly askew, and you stick to it, your reasons for staying will be much different than your reasons for showing up.

do your thing man. if you want it, then do it. don't worry so much about getting this place figured out, that'll come soon enough. just do what you gotta do to get in.
 
Are you a Kings Pointer?

bruno said:
Well there are options that should hit your hot button (for example having career aspirations as an author or accountant who never sees the ocean again) and then ones that are not only legitimate, well established but ultimately may be the saving grace for the school. If you are implying that the only legitimate reason for going to KP is to serve as an officer in the Sea Going US Flag Maritime industry you probably are signing a death warrant for the school because the future of that industry is bleak and getting bleaker every day- there is virtually no US Flag Sea Going Maritime industry outside MSC and a couple of ships flagged for Jones Act traffic- & it gets smaller every year. We may be importing more by the Sea every year but that stuff isn't coming in US bottoms. So-if you are arguing that the sole product of USMMA is licensed mariners sailing on their licenses- sooner rather than later people will look at this and decide that we don't really need a Federal academy to crew an industry that at this point is more about port facilities and intracoastal articulated Tugs and Barges than about International Ocean going vessels.
Fortunately USMMA can base its continued utility and existence on a much bigger need- which it fills by providing first class training of sea going leaders whether they are in Private industry or Government Service. 58 (30%) of the class of 2009 went on active duty including 19 on active duty with the USCG. It seems like a pretty legitimate option for someone who is interested in the USCG as a career- (SAMA is asking about this specifically) and there are a pretty significant number of USCG officers who got their start at USMMA so he would be far from alone in choosing that as a career path out of KP.
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Bruno:
I ask because while you ahve good stats for the Class of 2009, there are other errors of ommission and generality on/in your post and your prior one. You are a moderator and I've seen many of your posts offering great content and answers so I ask. Your characterization of the US Merchant fleet and the US Flag Merchant Marine is not entirely accurate - this year outlook for the Merchant Shipping Industry worldwide is pretty dismal regardless of vessel type, route or flag - that's why the 30% is about double the historical norm for a graduating KP class. Also when oil gets to $70+ per barrell and stays their the gray water fleet will be economically more viable in a big way for many more types of cargoes that today are served by overland trucking on congested highways. Finally as the US more even hadnedly enforces current cargo prefernce laws on key trade routes like China - West Coast, US Flag ships become more and more needed on them. The Jones Act isn't going away anytime soon nor should it - do you think if there is another "Desert Shield" or similar, the US is going to be able to take control of a Vessel flaged in the Marshall Islands to augment MSC's sealift capacity - I don't nor do many others that's why it continues to "live" 70+ years after it was originally passed.

Directly to your current point, while 30% of this past year's graduating class did go active duty and many Kings Pointers do well going Active Duty, it's not, IMO and several other folks I've seen post here's opinion, the best way to go active duty in a particular service. As you point out the best way to pursue active duty USCG is to go USCGA, Further if you look at Sam;s other posts he want's to become a USCG Pilot but he doesn't meet the DODMERB requirement for visual acuity (which probably is also an issue for his career goal isn't it?), has numerous doubts/questions about whether he should go to KP or if it is for him, etc. I can't speak for you or him, but for me, if I hadn't have been sure I wanted to go to KP, and do what KP was primarily training me for, on reflection, I don't see myself getting through Plebe year and if I did, I wouldn't have made it through my first sea year for sure - I had other "options" and would have taken them. To be clear I never had academic issues so I'm not talking about that, but if you don't want to go to sea, the sea year and the fact it drives you to have to cram 4 years of academics into 3 years and still deal with Regimental Life, wasn't and still isn't easy.

So as a Kings Pointer and taxpayer, I'm still suggesting that there are other ways that are as good or better to get a USCG commission if that's what you know you want then taking a slot at Kings Point away from someone who wants to go there and pursue a career in the commercial maritime industry, which is indeed, despite numerous permutations and additions, still it's primary mission.
 
jasperdog said:
Bruno:

As you point out the best way to pursue active duty USCG is to go USCGA, Further if you look at Sam;s other posts he want's to become a USCG Pilot but he doesn't meet the DODMERB requirement for visual acuity (which probably is also an issue for his career goal isn't it?), has numerous doubts/questions about whether he should go to KP or if it is for him, etc. I can't speak for you or him, but for me, if I hadn't have been sure I wanted to go to KP, and do what KP was primarily training me for, on reflection, I don't see myself getting through Plebe year and if I did, I wouldn't have made it through my first sea year for sure - I had other "options" and would have taken them.

So as a Kings Pointer and taxpayer, I'm still suggesting that there are other ways that are as good or better to get a USCG commission if that's what you know you want then taking a slot at Kings Point away from someone who wants to go there and pursue a career in the commercial maritime industry, which is indeed, despite numerous permutations and additions, still it's primary mission.
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Jasperdog:
As you have pointed out, my aspirations are to become a pilot in the USCG. However, I want to spend a couple years afloat in order to gain more leadership skills and knowledge of what life is like there. I am also applying to the USCGA. In fact, going to AIM instilled the desire to become a Coast Guard officer, and KP is definitely one route to get to the goal. As for the visual acuity, that is only in my left eye. My right eye is 20/30 and PRK is available if/after I get accepted into an academy. (I assume that you know that the Coast Guard falls under Navy medical standards and procedures for flying) However, the primary goal right now is: can I get accepted into an academy? Remember, one step at a time. If I go through Plebe Year, I would be thinking about the Coast Guard as motivation.

On behalf on those taxpayers and my self in landlocked states, I inform you that we also pick up the bill for KP. Yet, we rarely have people go there. So it is perfectly okay for me to apply and go there if I am lucky enough to get accepted. Honestly, do you think the people from land locked states consider going into the merchant marine...or do you think many of them see it as another way to gain a commission in a branch of the Armed Forces?

Also, as Bruno pointed out, there is a LOT of value in an officer knowing how to fix a ship's engines and what not. Sort of the idea you lead by example, right?

Very Respectfully,

SamAca10
 
SamAca10 said:
Also, as Bruno pointed out, there is a LOT of value in an officer knowing how to fix a ship's engines....
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Not really, not in the Coast Guard. No junior officer is going to be allowed by the Chief to get near the engines, and no senior officer is going to want to.
 
Thank you to everyone on this thread. I have learned so much. My son is considering USMMA and I appreciate everyone's thoughts!
 
Jasper- I don't claim that it is a good thing that the US Flag shipping induistry is in decline- just an inarguable fact. Virtually all of the ocean going fleet is supportable only because of the VISA and MSP programs or because they have Jones act captive markets like Hawaii. Even within routes like US East Coast to Puerto Rico the trade is becoming mostly Barge traffic
What that means is that the US fleet is not commercially viable as a business on its own and exists only as long as there are preferential laws to support it- hardly the basis for a growing industry and the numbers bear that out -How many US ships are actively involved in trade today vs 40 years ago? How many DWT? It's shrinking annually both in tonnage and in bottoms and the number of ships registered under the US Flag is skewed by the large number of militarily un-useful ships- I believe that there were are only 261 militarily useful US Flag merchant ships under the US Flag plus about 100 other oddballs. In fact I believe that even Marad would agree with this assessment as beginning last year the Maritime Adminstrator approved having Mids sail on non-US flagged ships for their sea time, which would indicate that there continues to be a shrinkage in the overall billets out there in the US fleet. Of course - the future is just my Crystal ball- maybe somebody in Congress has a plan to change the playing field for the industry- but unless they are going to relieve the requirements for Jones act ships to be built in US Yards, and unless they allow much lower manning standards - I don't see the industry as ever growing- it just costs too much for an American flag shipper to be any thing other than a small player in the word shipping market. (Those numbers of ships could be a little dated but this was my project for JMO at the Navy War College so I'm pretty confident of the overall argument).
All of that is not to disparage KP, nor to say that the shrinkage of the industry is a good thing.
But absolutely I would agree with you that anyone going to KP without the expectation of going to sea in some capacity, private, Government or military, is probably going to hate it and have serious questions about why they would go to school in a place where they are cramming 4 years requirements into 3 school years. But I also think that the record of USMMA in producing well trained professional junior leaders for the sea going military services is undeniable and it's a legitimate source for someone to consider.
By the way- no I am not a KP grad- I'm a VMI grad and a retired soldier but my Father and Uncle both followed this path into respectively, Navy and Coast Guard careers and I certainly ran into several KP and State Academy graduates during my year in Newport so I'm thinking that they certainly had a viable career path that benefited from their professional training at KP.

As far as Luigi's post- you are basing that assessment on what? Certainly not personal experience and I find it hard to believe that anyone from the Command Master Chief down to the lowest Seaman Apprentice would argue that a Junior Officer is not better served by being well trained on the technical details of his/her job. Ya think that Hyman Rickover would buy into that argument? Certainly the Submarine Force believes that officers need to be technically proficient in the details as well as in the big picture items. I have never yet met an Army NCO who wished that his Lieutenant was less competent, or who wished that his Lieutenant was incapable of performing the functions that he expects his junior enlisted personnel are expected to perform. I've met plenty who wished that the "Damn LT" would pull his head out and stop asking stupid questions, and I have met plenty who were pretty convinced that they could convince the LT to do anything they wanted because he didn't know up from down. Perhaps the USCG is different that way and they would rather that their junior officers don't get too involved in the details of their division? Somehow I doubt it. Leading by example is the name of the game in all services and soldiers; sailors, marines, airmen and yes Coast Guardsmen, all respond when they know that their leaders can do what they are asking them to do, and when they are professional enough to recognize the details of a difficult job. In fact I suspect that in a service which prides itself on gving junior officers a great deal of responsibility early- as the USCG does, junior officer technical competence is doubly valued.
 
bruno said:
As far as Luigi's post- you are basing that assessment on what? Certainly not personal experience
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1st of all, you have no idea what my personal experience is.

2nd - it makes no sense to argue with you, you have never conceded anyones point but your own.
 
Hmm. Just a quick point for Sam...
Even 'Landlocked' states with Nominations to make for USMMA don't guarantee an Acceptance slot. If you don't have what Admissions thinks it takes to make it through, they wouldn't be doing you a favor to let you in. If your state doesn't USE it, it doesn't go Wasted -- it can be filled by one of the many states/Candidates/Exchanges which regularly have lots of interested and motivated candidates.

I guess what they are saying is "If you are GENUINELY interested, cowboy up. If not, (and this goes for EVERYONE considering KP), don't half-heartedly FILL a slot if you're not committed to graduating from KP. You may be knocking someone else who IS genuinely committed, but in a more competitive/populous area.

Eye surgery/prk/etc... I've heard this is generally not even CONSIDERED by opthomologists until the eyes (and you) stop growing. Most urge kids to wait until at least 21 to evaluate.
 
Zonker:
I was wondering, though, why the land locked states are paying for KP if they are giving their nominations away to other states? It seems like a waste of their constituents money if their children are not interested in said academy, does it not?

However, I do agree with what you're saying about candidates half-heartedly filling spots and taking them away from those who really want to go there...at AIM they told us that the class of 2013 had two people DOR before lunch on R-Day. That is unacceptable, because the top two people on the waiting list have been shafted and have to possibly wait a year longer.

Yes, you are correct about PRK not being considered until the applicant is past the age of 21. The eyes do not finish growing until around that age (had to study the eyes for a health project once) If I was to get PRK, I would get it either as a firstie or 2/c mid/cadet.

Excellent input everyone! :thumb:

Very Respectfully,

SamAca10
 
SamAca10 said:
Zonker:
I was wondering, though, why the land locked states are paying for KP if they are giving their nominations away to other states? It seems like a waste of their constituents money if their children are not interested in said academy, does it not?

Very Respectfully,

SamAca10
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For the same reason that people in Iowa now own a piece of the "big dig" in Boston. Once your money is turned over to the U.S. Government it has away of becoming nobody's money. On the other hand the argument could (and should) be made that an Academy that produces officers for the military or maritime industry benefits everyone. As for MOCs giving away their slots.....as my daughter pointed out, members of congress rarely "give" anything away.
 
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