bjkuds
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March 8th, 2011 AROTC Board
- Thread starter cooper1234
- Start date
WinterHater
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Been thinking about this one overnight. My tendancy would be to think you are both crazy too
.Is the first choice school really that much better that you would turn down a full merit scholarship, a sure thing, to the second choice school? A full merit scholarship plus a chance to participate with a good ROTC unit with no commitment required until the two year point seems like a pretty good option to me. Maybe a better option since it would financially be a wash and leave him without a commitment / contract until later on. And they earn the same gold bars at commisioning regardless of the school.
The SMP option had me pretty concerned. We were considering it as well but I wasnt sure going off to a new environment (college), focusing on grades, participating in ROTC fully, and joining a guard / reserve unit all seemed like pretty big changes and a tremendous commitment all at once.
Ohio2015Parent
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Been thinking about this one overnight. My tendancy would be to think you are both crazy too
Is the first choice school really that much better that you would turn down a full merit scholarship, a sure thing, to the second choice school? A full merit scholarship plus a chance to participate with a good ROTC unit with no commitment required until the two year point seems like a pretty good option to me. Maybe a better option since it would financially be a wash and leave him without a commitment / contract until later on. And they earn the same gold bars at commisioning regardless of the school.
The SMP option had me pretty concerned. We were considering it as well but I wasnt sure going off to a new environment (college), focusing on grades, participating in ROTC fully, and joining a guard / reserve unit all seemed like pretty big changes and a tremendous commitment all at once.
I completely agree with a lot of what you are saying. I'm actually hopeful that DS will instead simply go to #1 Choice and compete for a 3 year. Marist commented earlier that there should be money available, and I've heard this also from other sources. SMP is a HUGE committment of time and energy.
A little background info may help clarify why I would allow/encourage DS to pursue #1. I am not a college grad. My family allowed only one option and actually made me turn down a scholarship to an OOS that I wanted to attend. The school they chose was my Dad's alum and a great school - for someone else. My two sisters and a brother all went and graduated there with different degrees, it just wasn't a good fit for ME. I was miserable and left college at the end of my freshman year under acacdemic probation. I was a lazy but good student in high school with an IQ that rates notice, but because I absolutely hated living in this college town I failed and dropped out. I always swore my kids would pick their schools. My older DD actually attends DS's #2 choice, its a great school, for HER. She picked from 5 schools, money and fit put her there.
I have until May 1 to refuse the scholarship to #2 school - no matter what DS has said, I will not release it until the deadline. But in my heart I know he truly does want a shot at #1, so we will talk more and face a little reality check for him. But yes, I may be crazy for going along with this
Sitting at the clinic waiting for DS' medical exam... Read Kev Dawg's post. Discouraging news indeed. Our ROO admitted he thought it was strange that DODMERB packet was sent out last week with no offer of scholarship yet for him. Guess we can only keep playing the game.
Ohio2015Parent
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sjba16, this post was after KevDawgs and while slightly different than previous information, does indicate some additional offers are in the pipeline, probably just not many. Praying you get a miracle too.
bjkuds
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I completely agree with a lot of what you are saying. I'm actually hopeful that DS will instead simply go to #1 Choice and compete for a 3 year. Marist commented earlier that there should be money available, and I've heard this also from other sources. SMP is a HUGE committment of time and energy.
A little background info may help clarify why I would allow/encourage DS to pursue #1. I am not a college grad. My family allowed only one option and actually made me turn down a scholarship to an OOS that I wanted to attend. The school they chose was my Dad's alum and a great school - for someone else. My two sisters and a brother all went and graduated there with different degrees, it just wasn't a good fit for ME. I was miserable and left college at the end of my freshman year under acacdemic probation. I was a lazy but good student in high school with an IQ that rates notice, but because I absolutely hated living in this college town I failed and dropped out. I always swore my kids would pick their schools. My older DD actually attends DS's #2 choice, its a great school, for HER. She picked from 5 schools, money and fit put her there.
I have until May 1 to refuse the scholarship to #2 school - no matter what DS has said, I will not release it until the deadline. But in my heart I know he truly does want a shot at #1, so we will talk more and face a little reality check for him. But yes, I may be crazy for going along with this
I Agree Ohio...College graduation is not an automatic. It needs to be what they want as long as there is a feasible way of doing it. If they are willing to commit to the hard road because it's what they want you might find him excelling vs barely getting by on the "easier route". DS is highly motivated to meet His goals...not so motivated if the goals are imposed by others and I think that is pretty much human nature. Good Luck
I take the opposite view, IMHO; ROTC and NG will both re-enforce college,
My sons future PMS told him, in no uncertain terms that all scholarship cadets not making a 2.5 GPA would be automatically enrolled in ROTC's mandatory study group, Tutoring and additional help were required, not optional - and anyone who needed help could show up and get help from staff/upperclassman any day of the week. The cadets (at U of Alabama) are encouraged to use the ROTC bldg as 'their hangout' to study, use the in-house computer lab, or even take a nap in the cadet lounge between classes.
Compared with a kid who is far from home, with no adult supervision, and doing work study in the cafeteria, I think the ROTC cadets, by having several adults monitoring their grades and class attendance greatly increases their chances of graduating. I also think having to be up for O:dark:30 class/PT (attendance taken) precludes cadets from joining the party-hardy crowd.
The SMP weekend a month with the NG, shadowing an officer/mentor is close to assisting a professor, it should give the cadet a broader view of his career than his classmates and it is not an overwhelming time commitment, as compared with work study or being an RA, which lots of kids do. The accession points from SMP are about that of a Varsity sport - which has a HUGE time commitment by comparison.
On to Plan B?
I just saw KevDawgsPop's post and while I want to keep the faith it sound like pretty good information. I think I am going to sign off for now. I want thank everyone; it's been great to have this forum to keep the spirits up over these past few months. I hope all your DS's go on to do great things with there lives. For those of you who’s DS received a scholarship; congratulations & best wishes for their future. For those of us who’s DS did not, I have to believe God must have a different plan for our children, and I pray only good will come from this experience. Good luck to you all!
I’m not looking forward to telling my son the news. It will be a sad day, but he will pick himself up and move on to Plan B. He’s a great kid and I am very proud of him!!
Take care and God bless you all!
I just saw KevDawgsPop's post and while I want to keep the faith it sound like pretty good information. I think I am going to sign off for now. I want thank everyone; it's been great to have this forum to keep the spirits up over these past few months. I hope all your DS's go on to do great things with there lives. For those of you who’s DS received a scholarship; congratulations & best wishes for their future. For those of us who’s DS did not, I have to believe God must have a different plan for our children, and I pray only good will come from this experience. Good luck to you all!
I’m not looking forward to telling my son the news. It will be a sad day, but he will pick himself up and move on to Plan B. He’s a great kid and I am very proud of him!!
Take care and God bless you all!
Thanks Ohio. I'm praying for us all!!
Plan B and C and D
First post, longtime lurker for two boards.
Thanks for all the valuable information during this truly unique experience. It was the only place I could find any information that could bring a little sanity to an unfamilar process. So, Plan A over (well, almost). No scholarship offer here, but he'll still be pursuing plan B and C and D (although hopefully he can stop at B). He already knows where he's going, what he's going to do, now it's just a question of how to make it happen. I'd like to share a passage from one of my favorite books (if you haven't read it, it's a must read for your young men and women entering into the competition of today--all of my AP students read it during their junior year). I think it helps put into perspective that the "means" to the road of success comes in so many forms, and once the decision is made to take the ROTC road, the scholarship is just one path to get there.
"Once a musician has enough ability to get into a top music school, the thing that distinguishes one performer from another is how hard he or she works. That's it. And what's more, the people at the very top don't work just harder or even much harder than everyone else. They work much, much harder."
— Malcolm Gladwell (Outliers)
Our sons our daughters all have proven the ability to get into top schools and programs, now it's time to acknowledge, as did previous posters, scholarship or not, it's the hard work that will pay off in the end. Good luck to you and yours.
First post, longtime lurker for two boards.
Thanks for all the valuable information during this truly unique experience. It was the only place I could find any information that could bring a little sanity to an unfamilar process. So, Plan A over (well, almost). No scholarship offer here, but he'll still be pursuing plan B and C and D (although hopefully he can stop at B). He already knows where he's going, what he's going to do, now it's just a question of how to make it happen. I'd like to share a passage from one of my favorite books (if you haven't read it, it's a must read for your young men and women entering into the competition of today--all of my AP students read it during their junior year). I think it helps put into perspective that the "means" to the road of success comes in so many forms, and once the decision is made to take the ROTC road, the scholarship is just one path to get there.
"Once a musician has enough ability to get into a top music school, the thing that distinguishes one performer from another is how hard he or she works. That's it. And what's more, the people at the very top don't work just harder or even much harder than everyone else. They work much, much harder."
— Malcolm Gladwell (Outliers)
Our sons our daughters all have proven the ability to get into top schools and programs, now it's time to acknowledge, as did previous posters, scholarship or not, it's the hard work that will pay off in the end. Good luck to you and yours.
I think WinterHater was referring more to the fact that it may be a bit much to add reserves to an already hectic school and rotc schedule the first year.
I will agree with the benefits ROTC can have. My older son, a MS3, has told us about the required study hall at ROTC, he has tutored, and studied there at times. The cadre keep a close watch on their academics and counsel the cadets each semester.
As a SMP you don't contract until your sophomore year. You do not have to join the reserves or Guard prior to your freshman year. This will give the cadet a chance to get settled in college, participate fully in ROTC and decide if the reserves and SMP will fit into the schedule for the next year.
The ids should know that all SMP reserve weekends are not always as they are portrayed. There are good and bad experiences. We have heard stories from some SMP that they do nothing but sit in an office and shuffle paperwork all weekend. Some play basketball and just hang out. Some are given more responsibility and do get more involved with good mentors and some are just tolerated for the weekend. A fellow cadet of my son is SMP and an Engineering Major, the one weekend a month has been tough and taken its toll. Do not under estimate the amount of time ROTC will take. As you progress through the 4 years you will get very busy. My son has done something with ROTC almost every weekend this year getting ready for LDAC.
SMP can be and is a great program, just go into it with eyes wide open. Don't be in a hurry to run right down to the recruiter an sign up, you will have plenty of time and opportunity when you get to school. The MS1 instructor at my son's school is also the National Guard recruiter, believe me they all heard about SMP the first year, some signed up during the first year.
Remember also, like Clarkson has said, you do not have to go to BCT to do SMP, so you don't have to rush to ship off to BCT this summer, look at all the options. If you are unable to get a campus scholarship during your freshman year, SMP will always be there.
Good Luck everyone.
Love Gladwell
I think this concept of work is what motivates some of us to encourage our kids to pursue the passion of their first choice school even without a scholarship. Great passion is often a catalyst for working harder and harder. When you watch your kid do bear crawls on the ice or whatever activity you want to choose that 99.9% of the world would say, "No Way," you have reason to believe that if there are campus based funds they will have a great opportunity to secure them. Problem is these funds may or may not exist no matter how hard one works which is a point well taken by Winterhater who encourages some to go for the sure thing.
First post, longtime lurker for two boards.
Thanks for all the valuable information during this truly unique experience. It was the only place I could find any information that could bring a little sanity to an unfamilar process. So, Plan A over (well, almost). No scholarship offer here, but he'll still be pursuing plan B and C and D (although hopefully he can stop at B). He already knows where he's going, what he's going to do, now it's just a question of how to make it happen. I'd like to share a passage from one of my favorite books (if you haven't read it, it's a must read for your young men and women entering into the competition of today--all of my AP students read it during their junior year). I think it helps put into perspective that the "means" to the road of success comes in so many forms, and once the decision is made to take the ROTC road, the scholarship is just one path to get there.
"Once a musician has enough ability to get into a top music school, the thing that distinguishes one performer from another is how hard he or she works. That's it. And what's more, the people at the very top don't work just harder or even much harder than everyone else. They work much, much harder."
— Malcolm Gladwell (Outliers)
Our sons our daughters all have proven the ability to get into top schools and programs, now it's time to acknowledge, as did previous posters, scholarship or not, it's the hard work that will pay off in the end. Good luck to you and yours.
I think this concept of work is what motivates some of us to encourage our kids to pursue the passion of their first choice school even without a scholarship. Great passion is often a catalyst for working harder and harder. When you watch your kid do bear crawls on the ice or whatever activity you want to choose that 99.9% of the world would say, "No Way," you have reason to believe that if there are campus based funds they will have a great opportunity to secure them. Problem is these funds may or may not exist no matter how hard one works which is a point well taken by Winterhater who encourages some to go for the sure thing.
WinterHater
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I fully understand where you are coming from. I also fully understand everyone making their own way and choices that are best for them. Most of my life has been spent following the less travelled path, and me and my family are, by far, the better for it. I just felt that the "bird in the hand worth two in the bush" analagy needed to be mentioned. My apologies if I spoke (typed?) out of place.
I recently read an article about new college graduates who were so far in debt and starting life with these tremendous college loans they acquired in order to attend the "prestigous" college that gave them relatively no advantage over the generic "no-name" college that it really gives me pause. There wasn't that big of a disparity between my sons first choice vs. second choice school. Apparantly there is for your son. I understand that as well as both of your reasoning. But I also understand your reasoning for not releasing the acedemic scholarship until the last minute also
These are all reasons I was elated that my son would participate in, and had received a scholarship from, ROTC. I fully recognize all of those positives, and would add that I want my son associating in college with the kids I am reading about on this board - good kids with good hearts, a desire to serve their country, and with great character and desire to excel.
But aside from the financial aspects, which are huge, I dont see the SMP as beneficial as you do, but rather as a detriment to time I would prefer my son to spend studying and participating in ROTC activities. I want my son to be able to give 100% to his studies and grades, as well as his ROTC unit in order to assure him a reasonable chance of attaining one of his branch selections. I think SMP is a pretty good deal, but I was concerned that it would be too much for my son all at once.
And that chance of deployment, however small the window may be, prior to college graduation really had me concerned. The world is a scary place post-9/11 and rules can change in an instant. And as I said, I just worried that it would be a lot to take on all at once.
WinterHater
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Sheesh. All the time and effort I put into may last post, and then I see this one.
Your one sentance summarized my thought precisely.
I'll go sit in the corner now and be quiet.
Ohio2015Parent
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My apologies if I spoke (typed?) out of place.
Absolutely not offended at all by your questions/comments. Just wanted to give a little info to help those others who are going "Ohio is nuts, free is free" a chance to see how some of these decisions are made.
I recently read an article about new college graduates who were so far in debt and starting life with these tremendous college loans they acquired in order to attend the "prestigous" college that gave them relatively no advantage over the generic "no-name" college that it really gives me pause. There wasn't that big of a disparity between my sons first choice vs. second choice school. Apparantly there is for your son. I understand that as well as both of your reasoning. But I also understand your reasoning for not releasing the acedemic scholarship until the last minute also
DS has a tuition merit scholarship to #1 - this is the only thing that kept this choice alive. It is worth about 10K, equal in a lot of ways to an AROTC scholarship. We must find book, room&board money only. He will take a Stafford and we take a small Parent loan to make this happen. IF he later joins NG/SMP he can have his loan written into the contract to be paid off on his behalf. Then he will make MY payments
These are all reasons I was elated that my son would participate in, and had received a scholarship from, ROTC. I fully recognize all of those positives, and would add that I want my son associating in college with the kids I am reading about on this board - good kids with good hearts, a desire to serve their country, and with great character and desire to excel.
Absolutely agree, why I want DS in ROTC classes and with the cadre. Great opportunities, great friendships to be made.
Sheesh. All the time and effort I put into may last post, and then I see this one.
Your one sentance summarized my thought precisely.
I'll go sit in the corner now and be quiet.
Jcleppe has a way with words. Don't be quiet - we all need to share information and insights. No one grows in silent isolation
whsoccerjc21
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I just wanted to post a few of my opinions on how to improve this whole process. For one, there were many people who like me were completely finished with their application and board ready by mid July. Yet they wait until April and get nothing. I just feel like they showed their dedication to ROTC by getting everything in early and yet got no reward.
Also I think CC's requirements focus too much on grades. It's no secret that some of the best soldiers are not "book smart". Most of the education you learn during ROTC is new material and not taught during high school. So why is it then that your high school GPA is so heavily weighed? I'm not saying that people almost failing should be granted scholarships, but I believe they should go into more depths of the students high school grades. For example I ended up having a 3.3 through my first 3 years. If you look at my actual grades the class that is keeping it down is math. The main reason its low is because I am not interested in math, and I'm not scared to say so. However if you look at my history and english grades (Which I believe are more useful in the Army anyways), they are fantastic because I find that more interesting. Not to mention if they had requested grades from my senior year my GPA would have risen to around a 3.6 because I am enrolled in classes I enjoy learning about and my grades reflect that. Obviously ROTC interests me so my grades will be higher. Also why is it that colleges and university's across the country are slowly phasing SAT and ACT scores out of requirements because they realize they are not true indicators of how smart a student really is, yet CC still requires high scores in order to receive a scholarship? I understand that grades are still important, but I think CC should weigh them a little less compared to things like leadership and physical attributes. I believe that my other attributes should make me a great soldier even without stellar grades. (3 years of varsity sports, 1 year of captain, Received a leadership award for my team, in great shape, and did awesome on the interview.)
With that being said, I am still hoping for some good news today, and regardless of whether I get the scholarship or not, I will be enrolling in ROTC come the fall. Good luck to everyone who is still waiting. And I hope I didn't offend anyone with my post, these are just my opinions.
Also I think CC's requirements focus too much on grades. It's no secret that some of the best soldiers are not "book smart". Most of the education you learn during ROTC is new material and not taught during high school. So why is it then that your high school GPA is so heavily weighed? I'm not saying that people almost failing should be granted scholarships, but I believe they should go into more depths of the students high school grades. For example I ended up having a 3.3 through my first 3 years. If you look at my actual grades the class that is keeping it down is math. The main reason its low is because I am not interested in math, and I'm not scared to say so. However if you look at my history and english grades (Which I believe are more useful in the Army anyways), they are fantastic because I find that more interesting. Not to mention if they had requested grades from my senior year my GPA would have risen to around a 3.6 because I am enrolled in classes I enjoy learning about and my grades reflect that. Obviously ROTC interests me so my grades will be higher. Also why is it that colleges and university's across the country are slowly phasing SAT and ACT scores out of requirements because they realize they are not true indicators of how smart a student really is, yet CC still requires high scores in order to receive a scholarship? I understand that grades are still important, but I think CC should weigh them a little less compared to things like leadership and physical attributes. I believe that my other attributes should make me a great soldier even without stellar grades. (3 years of varsity sports, 1 year of captain, Received a leadership award for my team, in great shape, and did awesome on the interview.)
With that being said, I am still hoping for some good news today, and regardless of whether I get the scholarship or not, I will be enrolling in ROTC come the fall. Good luck to everyone who is still waiting. And I hope I didn't offend anyone with my post, these are just my opinions.
Pima
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One thing as a parent who has 2 kids in college can tell you there are 2 factors to think about when selecting college.
1. Major
~~~ Many times you see kids select the wrong major and because they do that, academically it kills them. They are literally trying to force themselves to become the round peg and as we all know you can't do that.
IMPO, if the major matches your child's academic gifts than it will be easier for them. Not only academically, but emotionally too. For many kids this will be the 1st C they ever saw in their life.
2. School
~~~ Being a fit is a strong motivator to the child. They are emotionally invested in staying. They want to be there, and will search out assistance, such as, tutors.
ROTC or not every campus has tutors, and office hours for assistance.
If the school is not a match, the motivation is gone and they are not going to search out tutors or assistance. They are going to say "boff it" I hate this place anyway.
ROTC as a freshman is not as time consuming as others may portray. DS was not only in ROTC, with a job, but also in a military fraternity, plus worked 20 hrs a week on the hill (45 min commute each way) and still pulled a 3.4+ gpa. He did it IMPO because he wanted to be at that school in that major! That was his true motivation.
I think that if you select the right school, AND the right major SMP should not be thought of as a negative.
I have to say for our DS's school, as cadets they have required volunteer hours every semester, those stories didn't shock me about SMP.
For ex: at his school, ROTC, all branches rotate in cleaning up the stadium after a home FB game. This is mandated volunteering
(oxymoron). What 18 yr old wants to clean up a stadium Sunday from 7 am to 3. Their stadium holds @55K people, rain, shine or snow. I am thinking they would rather shuffle paperwork inside.
They also must clean the BBall arena. They also do runs like the Susan Kohlman for philanthropic. On top of that if they join military fraternities, they have to volunteer there too. 2 weeks ago, DS spent 6 hrs making PB & J's in a homeless shelter on a Saturday.
I don't want people to enter ROTC and think it is a M-F thing, because at least, for some cadres it is 7 days a week, just like AD military.
You need to look at your child, you need to be up front and honest. Be devil's advocate, if they say white, say black. Once you can't move them from white to black you will know they will be fine. If you can, than re-think the plan.
JMPO as a parent, one in ROTC, one not.
1. Major
~~~ Many times you see kids select the wrong major and because they do that, academically it kills them. They are literally trying to force themselves to become the round peg and as we all know you can't do that.
IMPO, if the major matches your child's academic gifts than it will be easier for them. Not only academically, but emotionally too. For many kids this will be the 1st C they ever saw in their life.
2. School
~~~ Being a fit is a strong motivator to the child. They are emotionally invested in staying. They want to be there, and will search out assistance, such as, tutors.
ROTC or not every campus has tutors, and office hours for assistance.
If the school is not a match, the motivation is gone and they are not going to search out tutors or assistance. They are going to say "boff it" I hate this place anyway.
ROTC as a freshman is not as time consuming as others may portray. DS was not only in ROTC, with a job, but also in a military fraternity, plus worked 20 hrs a week on the hill (45 min commute each way) and still pulled a 3.4+ gpa. He did it IMPO because he wanted to be at that school in that major! That was his true motivation.
I think that if you select the right school, AND the right major SMP should not be thought of as a negative.
I have to say for our DS's school, as cadets they have required volunteer hours every semester, those stories didn't shock me about SMP.
For ex: at his school, ROTC, all branches rotate in cleaning up the stadium after a home FB game. This is mandated volunteering
(oxymoron). What 18 yr old wants to clean up a stadium Sunday from 7 am to 3. Their stadium holds @55K people, rain, shine or snow. I am thinking they would rather shuffle paperwork inside.They also must clean the BBall arena. They also do runs like the Susan Kohlman for philanthropic. On top of that if they join military fraternities, they have to volunteer there too. 2 weeks ago, DS spent 6 hrs making PB & J's in a homeless shelter on a Saturday.
I don't want people to enter ROTC and think it is a M-F thing, because at least, for some cadres it is 7 days a week, just like AD military.
You need to look at your child, you need to be up front and honest. Be devil's advocate, if they say white, say black. Once you can't move them from white to black you will know they will be fine. If you can, than re-think the plan.
JMPO as a parent, one in ROTC, one not.
Ohio2015Parent
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I'm glad you could come here and vent and know we would listen and support you. Yes, perhaps too much is made over grades and test scores, unfortunately it is a fact in so many decisions surrounding college. One question however, why did you not update your GPA before the Oct board? Were grades not available yet? DS didn't have a change in GPA, so we never tried to update that, just curious if you tried.
I hope you have good Plan B,C or whatever to get you where you want to go to school. Your dedication will play out thru your school and army career - go into next year hungry for sucess and keep the faith in yourself always. The dream is only detoured, keep running after it