Multiple Nomination

Discussion in 'Nominations' started by jm123, Aug 11, 2013.

  1. jm123

    jm123 Member

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    How common is it to receive multiple nominations, as in , a nomination to USMA, USNA, and USAFA? I'm trying to decide how I should rank my academy preferences.
     
  2. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    All depends on your Senators or Congressman. Ask your MOC.
     
  3. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    To expand on MemberLG, who I entirely agree with, some states are very competitive with lots and lots of applicants. So some MOCs make sure that between them you only get one nomination. Some even limit it to one specific nomination to a specific academy. Others have a dearth of applicants and are begging for people to nominate. Some don't even believe in the process and nominate no one. So... ask your MOCs. If they are asking you to rank, I'm guessing chances at nominations to multiple academies are limited. In any case, I'd rank them in the order of YOUR preference and not try to game the system.
     
  4. grevar

    grevar CGA Admissions Partner

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    Agree with Kinnem.

    We were told that all three of our MOC's coordinate with each other so that none of them duplicate nominations. So, here you won't receive multiple noms. We were told by all of them to make your first choice the same on all of the applications. Like Kinnem said, don't try and game the system.
     
  5. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    It totally depends on where you live and the policies of your MOCs. In some geographic areas, there are fewer qualified candidates than there are nom slots. In such cases, it's not uncommon for someone to receive multiple noms and even multiple noms to more than one SA.

    In very competitive areas, MOCs may -- but do not always -- coordinate such that each candidate may get only one nom to one SA among the three MOCs. That can create some tough choices/decisions for the candidates but it is what it is.

    To further complicate matters, some super-competitive areas, such as where I live, may have a "rogue" MOC who nominates whomever he/she wants to regardless of whether that candidate has other noms. Bottom line is that the MOCs can nominate whomever they want to and every state and every district is thus different.
     
  6. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    However, I believe since MOCs are gaming the system, in my opinion, I think it's fair for applicants to try to game the system also (there are associated risk). Say two Senators and Congressman has 1 vacancy each at West Point, Navy, and Air Force (apologize for not including Merchant Marine as I know their nomination is different and I am not familiar with how it work). So if MOCs follow one nomination, one SA, and coordinate, than each MOC can give 30 nomination to different individuals or making favorable impression on up to 90 voters (parents and individual) to vote for them. Whereas an individual getting multiple nominations decreases the number of potential voters. Of course when an applicant don't get in, it's not MOCs' fault as they gave you the nomination.

    Each SA have different candidate evaluation system, as we seen with kids getting accepted into one SA and getting rejected by another one. So if MOCs limits applicants to one nomination, an applicant who might have gotten into West Point but rejected by Navy to apply to Navy only. Whereas if he or she gotten nomination to both SAs, might have gotten an appointment to West Point. All of us know that the nomination gives you 1/10 chance on the surface. The reality if you are not in the top 3 within your nomination category, your chance of an appointment is very low or none. My disclaimer is that since applicants don't know their standing within their nomination category, they have two choices, give up or give 100% and see what happens. If you don't buy a lottery ticket, you can't win. If you buy a lottery ticket, you might win.
     
  7. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    MemberLG. On the surface, I agree with your points. But it's actually much more complicated than even you are making it. I don't think the MOC's are gaming the system as much as some might think. Many of the MOC's are very ignorant of the process. Many truly believe that they were suppose to simply give a list of 10 names to the academy and let them pick who to give the appointment to. This came from chats with multiple MOC; in different states. When they found out they actually could rank their nominees and even make one of them their #1 principal choice, some were shocked.

    Also, the appointment process revolves entirely on "Your Competition". Whether that's at the MOC/Slate/District/State level; or if it's in the "National Pool" level. (Let alone the other nomination slates like presidential). Depending on your competition, it is not unrealistic to get an appointment from one military academy and not receive one from another. It's also more realistic that it's easier for an applicant in Colorado to receive an appointment to Navy than Air Force. Just like the individual from Florida or Hawaii probably has an easier chance of getting west point than to get Navy.

    But for many MOCs, in many states, giving nominations is very difficult. Especially senators. You're trying to give 10 each nominations for the big-3 academies; yet, you have literally HUNDREDS of individuals applying to each. And they all know that generally, as a minimum, each MOC will probably get one slot per year. So, they try and spread the wealth around the best they can. I can understand not give multiple nominations.

    My only advice is to truly decide what your main goal is. Choose which academy helps you achieve that goal. Make ROTC and other options your backup. Nothing wrong with applying to multiple academies; but for many applicants, the purpose of applying to multiple academies, isn't as much about their true desires and goals, and more about wanting the "Free education". Not saying there aren't some applicants who simply "Want to Serve" and will take ANY opportunity. Including all 5 academies, all ROTC, and even "Enlisting". But I think that is extremely rare.

    So by all means, individuals should apply for all the nominations they can get. And if they truly want to "JUST SERVE", and which academy doesn't matter; then by all means apply. But if you are in a very competitive state/district for academy nominations..... Then I really suggest you prioritise your true goals and give it all to that one academy. If you get it; great. If you get one of the others you applied to; that too is great. But the key to it all is your competition. Maybe there's only 9 others. maybe there's 150. Maybe you're the best; maybe not. Maybe everyone where you lives wants Navy and no one has asked for air force. You MOC has to work with what they have been dealt. Can't blame them for trying to make it fair for everyone.
     
  8. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    Not sure if one nomination per candidate is fair. Candidate A works hard, 2100 SAT, 4.0 GPA, three varsity sports, Eagle Scout. Candidate B is not accomplished as Candidate A, but still gets a nomination. Is this like a sports competition where everyone gets a medal for playing?
     
  9. grevar

    grevar CGA Admissions Partner

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    Not everyone gets a nomination. Not everybody has equal stats either. Are you saying you think that each MOC should only give out one nom to the most qualified candidate? That would have the smell of politics all over it! JMPO
     
  10. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Not sure but I'm guessing your point is that, first, not everyone should get a nomination and, second by implication, MOCs attempt to spread the wealth is not really making it fair or even a useful thing to do. If so, I think I would agree. It does strike me as trying to give everyone who plays a trophy.
     
  11. USMAROTCFamily

    USMAROTCFamily Member

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    I have always felt as though the MOCs should look at nominations for each Service Academy completely separate and if you are willing to go to any of the 4 academies that require a nomination, then you should have the opportunity to compete for a nomination for all of them and not have to choose just one. Some applicants may only want to go to one of the academies and not others, but their desire to do this should not give them an edge over a potentially higher qualified candidate who was willing to list another desired academy.

    I think the whole process of nominations is completely archaic and should be abolished. I think each academy should make their own decisions about the most highly qualified candidates, period, and if they must spread out the appointments apportioned to each state's population, then they can have their own merit ranking by state to fill the spots.

    I don't know why any of this process would be important to politicians any way.
     
  12. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    I don't disagree with your basic premise but fail to see how someone who is set on one particular academy gets an edge over someone who will willing to attend multiple academies.
    I fail to see how that's very different from what we have now, especially if each MOC were to simply submit a slate and let the academy decide. It's basically proportional to population now and the only difference is that each candidate competes against a larger, statewide pool, which only Senatorial noms do today.
    Power and influence. They'll never change this process because it would take Congress to change it. Why would that happen?
     
  13. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    To most qualified candidates.
     
  14. USMAROTCFamily

    USMAROTCFamily Member

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    I guess my point in someone who is set on one particular academy could get an edge over someone who would be willing to attend multiple academies, might be explained like this: Candidate A only wants to go to USAFA, but Candidate B would be happy to go to USAFA, USMA, USNA, USMMA but his state's MOC will only offer nomination to one of them. Candidate B is forced to list a top choice and chooses USNA. When he makes this decision, Candidate B doesn't know who the competition is for any of the academies, but after the fact finds out he wasn't the strongest USNA nomination for the district and doesn't get an appointment to the USNA. In the meantime, Candidate A got the appointment to USAFA. But what if Candidate B was actually a stronger candidate for a USAFA appointment over Candidate A, but he could not get the nomination because he got his sole appointment to USNA. Had he decided to list USAFA as he first choice, he would have had that appointment. I think all candidates should have an equal chance for a nomination to all 4 academies. If it ends up being the same 10 kids on the slate for all 4 academies, then so be it. The academies can then offer the most qualified candidates the spots. If all 4 academies have the same view of the top candidate and each offers an appointment to the same candidates, then the kids will have to choose which one they want to go to. This will then release the other spots to the next kid in line. If each of the academies are looking for different qualities, then this will give them the chance to assess for themselves. For these same reasons, I don't think that any Congress(wo)man should be allow to choose a "principal" nominee. What makes them and their committee the best judge of what each academy desires in a candidate? If we are stuck with this system, then every slate should go in as an open slate with no rank prioritization. Obviously, just my $.02!
     
  15. grevar

    grevar CGA Admissions Partner

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    The way it was explained to us by the MOC's in this district, a Candidate can certainly get noms for different schools from the same MOC. If a candidate is competing for several SA's, than they need to list their preference the same with each MOC. That way, they have a better shot of getting at least ONE nom from each SA. All it would take is one MOC giving the candidate two noms.
     
  16. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    As others have said it varies MOC to MOC. Some talk, some don't. Personally coming from a state that is nationally academically competitive, I don't fall in the line that they are just filling the slates with anyone.

    In NoVA, Fairfax county the avg SAT score is 1350+ out of 1600 for their top HSs. This is not superscored. This is best sitting. My guess would be if the MOCs use superscore the 10 they do give a nom to will have 1600. They have hundreds of applicants for 10 slots. I would be hard pressed to say they don't have more than 10 applicants with 1600 for district 11 in VA.

    By talking those other candidates with the exact same score have a chance too because the MOCs talk.

    As far as principal goes, I know Eric Cantor does use it. However, in yrs past he has only given them to a candidate that got the TWE from the yr before, AND are in ROTC attending college. It is his way of rewarding the candidate that has not given up the dream of attending an SA.

    I also know from yrs here not every MOC actually submits a full slate, or even a slate because they believe in only nominating kids that are competitive or a match for the SA life. I know a few yrs back the MOC from Terre Haute, Ind., submitted one name, and one name alone. I believe many MOCs from NY did not even submit a slate at all, some for yrs.

    We can't and shouldn't paint a picture using broad brush strokes when it comes to the nom system. There are many things that need to be looked at.

    Finally, at the Pentagon there are offices that are the liaison between the MOCs and the SAs. They brief the MOC staffs in July regarding how many appointments are available to them for charging. The process they can use. The benefits and problems that come with each type...i.e Prin. Prin/alt/rank, Prin/Alt/no rank, Rank and no Rank.

    They come back in Jan. to brief again, this time with their slate nom names and every cadet/mid that has been appointed to them. Also to inform them that if any charge has dis-enrolled, and how many will commission that yr.

    The offices are wall to wall, top to bottom filled with cards for every MOC. They are color coded by yr group. This is so any MOC can call at any time and ask anything about the candidates/cadets. It has their stats, such as, sex, what district, their SAT/ACT, HS school, etc.
    ~~~ I know this because back in 05, I interviewed for a GS at the Pentagon for the AFA. They walked me through the entire process of what that office did.

    There is a lot more to this process than what many people believe.

    OBTW, just my 0.019743 cents, but most MOCs have committees, the MOC is not the one that decides per se, in essence, they just sign off on the committees recommendation. The committee is usually made up of a cross section of leaders, including military members, business leaders that were in the military, etc.
     
  17. USMAROTCFamily

    USMAROTCFamily Member

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    I wish it worked that way here. According to the MOCs offices, they coordinate all of their nominations so that candidates get one nomination to one academy. So the example somebody else used of 80 different kids getting 1 nomination from the 2 senators and 40 kids getting 1 nomination from each representative (where there is enough interest), is the norm. That is why when our DD planned on applying to the Service Academies, I had asked if DD should put a different branch as her 1st choice with each of the 3 different MOCs and I was told by others that that was trying to "Game" the system. Aren't the MOCs "gaming" the system by not allowing appointments to the top candidates to each of the academies instead of "trying to spread the wealth?" I've seen stories on here before of great candidates being medically DQ from one service, but a waiver granted for another. Unfortunately, their MOC would only give them 1 nomination and it happened to be to the academy that DQed them. Unfortunately, because they didn't have a nom to the academy that approved them, they couldn't get an appointment. Allowing noms to multiple academies to the top candidates wouldn't allow this to happen.
     
  18. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    So even though demand is high, and the number of raffle tickets is limited, each kid should get a full set of raffle tickets if that's what they want? Meaning some kids get no raffle tickets? :confused: Trust me. Plenty of other parents in the past have argued just the opposite of you when their DD or DS got NO nomination. There's nothing wrong with having a young adult make a choice IMO. But as 'the Guardian' said in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"... "Choose wisely". The system is what it is. Theorizing here won't change it. You have to work with what you have as you have no other choice. I wish your DD luck and hope her dreams come true. :thumb:
     
  19. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    USMAROTC,

    Let me play Devil's advocate.

    1. Our friend's DS was a CO candidate. He wanted USNA, placed AFA as number 2 on his list. He got Prin to AFA, no nom to USNA The Prin to USNA, no nom to AFA, they also had placed AFA as number 2, but when Thanksgiving rolled around she wanted AFA, not USNA. Our friend contacted the Sen. office about switching noms. The office contacted the USNA prin., asked if she still wanted the USNA. She said no, she wanted AFA. The office was able to switch them because it was prior to nom deadlines for MOCs. She commissioned AFA 2012. He commissioned USNA 2012.
    ~~~ They are not as heartless as you think.

    A couple of yrs ago on this site, there was an Illinois poster that got a late LOA from USMA(@Dec), but did not have a nom from an MOC for USMA. They too contacted the source, and got it switched.

    It happens.

    2.
    I posted this already. I think people are assuming that there is a huge discrepancy between number 1 on the list and number 10, but I highly doubt it.

    I am betting out of a pool in states that spread the wealth can have a pool of 700+ applicants. Think of states like CA, TX, FL, VA, MD, their population size is huge.

    Do you really believe that nom #1 has 2100 best sitting, top 5% rank, NMSF, NHS, 2 Varsity sports for 3 yrs, 300 community service hrs, every AP offered at the school; and nom #10 has 1800 best sitting, a few APs, top 20% rank, with 1 sport for 1 yr?

    That is what I am reading this as regarding spreading the wealth. For me I believe what nom #10 will have is 2090 best sitting, top 5% rank, NMSF, 2 varsity for 3 yrs, 250hrs. and every AP offered.

    Again, our DS got every MOC nom. When we went to the reception given by the Sen. They stated the overall stats. Every nom was an NMSF. Every nom had at least 1370 out of 1600 best sitting SAT (no superscore); do the math....680+ on each section. None were less than the top 10% class rank. 100% of them were in NHS. Every nom had at least 5 APs. (jr yr was cut off for selection). Combined (the ten on each slate) they had over 5000 community service hrs. Every nom had at least 1 varsity letter and participated in a sport for more than 3 yrs.
    ~~~ That was the Senate slate, in a state where they don't talk.

    His Congressional nom. did not hold a reception. He sent out a newsletter. It was almost identical regarding statistics.

    That is a non-competitive state where you can get 3 noms. Now imagine a competitive state. Seriously, do you believe that a spread the wealth state has lower stats than a non-spread the wealth?

    I think what is more important for any candidate to understand is the nom opens the door. Once the door is open, they can get appointed without being charged to the MOC.

    JMPO, but I don't understand wanting to attend all 3 SAs from a career perspective. Want to fly fixed...AFA/USNA. Want to fly Rotor USNA/USMA. Want to be on land...AFA/USMA. Want to be Spec. Ops....USNA/USMA.

    SA's are not 24/7/365 days a yr for 5 yrs. AD is! I would love one poster tell me why they would be happy with all 3 from a career perspective. Not the pat answer I want an SA education, and the training , but what happens after they pin on their butter bars in their career field.

    Maybe instead of kvetching about the noms./slates and process. It would be better off to look at it from the nom committee...why you want any SA! Why should we give YOU the nom. for X SA when you would be happy with any nom? Have you thought about 5 yrs from now (sr in hs to commission) when you owe 5 more yrs?

    LMAO, ROFL! Bullet has always used that statement starting back when he attend PME at Leavenworth as an AF officer. He was constantly teased/taunted that the AF officers are Prima Donnas working banker hours, making a million plus flight pay. His answer has always been, not my fault YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE WISELY.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  20. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    First, most candidates would NOT truly be happy an any SA. Maybe 2 but not all 5.

    Second, USCGA doesn't require noms. So, if you'd be happy anywhere, definitely apply there.

    Third, if you would truly be happy anywhere, apply to USMMA. NOT b/c it's not as great a school as the others (it is!) but b/c the nom system is more flexible and fewer candidates know about it/understand it and thus fewer tend to apply.

    Fourth, if you'd truly be happy anywhere, you can probably make a good guess as to which SAs are most popular where you live. Are you in a district with a huge naval base? Are you near USAFA?

    Fifth, in some areas, EVERY SA is popular and thus, it really doesn't matter what you put down . . . competition is tough.

    Sixth, most MOCs (especially Reps) do interviews. There you have the opportunity to say that, "Although I put down USAFA first, I would accept a nom to any SA and would love to go to any." That let's the committee know you are flexible. If your MOC doesn't do interviews and you have to pick one SA, I would include a note that says you'd accept a nom to any.

    As noted above, what happens in most cases is that a candidate wants either of 2 SAs, not all. That makes the situation a bit harder. What I tell candidates in that case is: If you'd TRULY be EQUALLY happy at either SA, split your noms. If you have a preference put all your eggs in one basket.

    We can debate the fairness of the process but it is what it is until Congress changes it and, if anyone thinks that's gonna happen soon, if at all . . . .:yllol::yllol::yllol:
     

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