Pro's / Con's

ramius - awesome post. By one who knows and clearly been there, done that.

RE: Harvard/Yale - not quite true. If you come from a destitute family, you would probably go "free". You would still need transportation and living expenses covered.
If you come from a middle class or upper middle class family, they often expect the family to contribute far more than they are 'able' to contribute. just because one qualifies for aid doesn't mean they will get all they need.
There are also parents who refuse to help their kids pay for college, even if they are able. These kids do not get financial aid and are on their own.
 
It's written on page 14...just saying:
this should be put where it's the first thing one reads when his/her computer is turned on.
No disrespect.
:thumb:
 
Just_A_Mom said:
RE: Harvard/Yale - not quite true. If you come from a destitute family, you would probably go "free". You would still need transportation and living expenses covered.
If you come from a middle class or upper middle class family, they often expect the family to contribute far more than they are 'able' to contribute. just because one qualifies for aid doesn't mean they will get all they need.
There are also parents who refuse to help their kids pay for college, even if they are able. These kids do not get financial aid and are on their own.
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Not quite true?? Destitute?!? Come on!! :thumbdown:

Quoting directly from Yale's web site, "Families earning less than $60,000 annually will not make any contribution toward the cost of a child’s education, and families earning $60,000 to $120,000 will typically contribute from 1% to 10% of total family income. The contribution of aided families earning above $120,000 will average 10% of income."

If those income levels sound "destitute" to you, you must be Paris Hilton.

JustAMom, with no financial aid, Yale is about $45,000/year not counting incidentals like travel and whatever nicities you may want (I know, I have a son there, and no, we get no financial aid). Any way you look at it, if you can get accepted to Yale, you should consider it seriously. Looking at those figures, it seems a good deal for most.

I am not trying to discourage anybody from going to a SA, it's just that with a drop out/ washout / force out rate of 30% with these kinds of highly motivated smart kids, something's screwy. Some of them need to know there are options out there for an Ivy education without having to be abused or become an indentured servant.

By the way, Yale's five year graduation rate (number of enrollees that graduate by the end of five years -- alot of them do a year abroad, like my son is doing in China right now on a $40,000 grant) is about 98%. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

As for kids whose parents will not help them with college, I have no answer for moral bankruptcy. May God bless those kids and give them the strength and wherewithal to overcome. :smile:
 
Lilly -
I appreciate your comments and I assure you, I harbor no ill will toward Yale or Harvard etc. Certainly many families find it easier to afford the Ivy with their new financial policies. Kids still need transportation, dorm supplies, clothing and books.

My point is that some families even with excellent financial aid will have a hard time paying the bill.
A couple earning $120,000 is expected to pay $12,000 each year. That is still a lot of money. Where I live most families making $120,000 can't afford $12,000/year for their kid to go to college. This doesn't include books or spending money or transportation.
$60,000 annual income is two parents earning $30,000/ year. That is not a lot of money on the East Coast where the standard of living is high. Add 3-4 kids to the mix and finding any money for college becomes a challenge. Even if the tuition is free.

There are indeed parents who will not - for whatever reason help their kids with college. Not every kid who is accepted to an SA is going to get into Harvard or Yale. Not every college has the generous financial aid policies of the Ivy's - in fact most do not. My other college age kids get financial aid - and a lot of it. However, it doesn't come close to meeting our "need".
My other 3 kids needed to take out quite a lot of federal loans to help pay their way to augment the contribution made by their mom and dad.
My cadet sees this opportunity to attend West Point as an opportunity to get a fabulous education and graduate debt free. A much better financial deal than ROTC which doesn't pay room and board ($10,000/ year).
Finances are not the whole picture but part of the picture and yes, for her an important part.

For one who wants an Army career anyway, compared to ROTC - the education is free. In fact, she gets paid to go to school. The rest is fun and games. This is her attitude - not mine.
 
I definitely see both sides; and have experienced both sides. The truth is; that there are a lot of ways to go to a fine school if one wants to. The academy, while a great way to get an education, should not be looked at as the only place to go for a smart kid because of finances. That is definitely not the right reason or only reason someone should apply to the academy. Definitely; there is nothing wrong with the reduced/free cost (Depending on how you look at cost); being looked at when applying to the academy. That should/will definitely be an area that any candidate should look at. Hopefully, it won't be their PRIMARY reason.

I say hopefully, because there's a lot more to the air force or any branch of the military than paying back a free education. I honestly believe that if our academies were filled with students only willing to serve 5 years as a means of paying back a pseudo student loan, our military leaders wouldn't be anywhere as good as they are. At accomplishing the mission or at protecting our sons and daughters. Sorry, but that is definitely one area I believe to be true. Doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with factoring in the cost of education into your decision. And there's nothing wrong with the academy maybe not being your first choice. But "SERVING YOUR COUNTRY" really does need to be "SOME PLACE" on your list of reasons for wanting to attend the academy.

But for the others who attend civilian colleges; there are so many choices. If a student has the qualifications to get accepted to a military academy, then they have what it takes to get accepted to most schools in the country. And as for the money, that isn't that difficult. Many people may not KNOW how to go about it, but it really isn't that difficult. Did you know that the average student attending MIT only pays about $12,000. That's the average. There are those paying less. Same with Yale as you correctly posted. But what people didn't see posted is that of the $12,000 required of the family making $120,000; that the average student get get around half of that through other scholarships. Problem is, too many people think that the ONLY place money/scholarships/grants/merit/etc... can come from is the school. That just isn't true. Then again, you have to know where to look.

When I started planning for my children's college years, the 1st thing I did was to forget EVERYTHING I knew about paying for college from when I was that age. I come from New Jersey. The place where even a "STATE" school costs a lot of money for "STATE RESIDENTS". The home of Princeton and Rutgers. I know what expensive schools are. And growing up, the truth is, if your family didn't have money or you weren't in the top 2% of the country; you weren't going to a prestigious school. And it was going to be difficult to go to most colleges without scholarships. Those days are gone. If you know what you're doing, you can get the money needed to go to college. Even if your parents don't contribute a dime. And even if part of it has to be student loans; most times such loans are small enough to be paid back with 1 years worth of earnings.

Anyway; I only expound on this because there are some lurkers and posters on these sites who will apply to the academy and not get accepted. There are also some that apply to the academy believing that this is their ONLY chance at a college education. There are also those who think if they don't get into the academy, that they have to go to a community college. Please!!!! Don't sell yourself short. If you've got the average 3.85 gpa; 2000+ SAT; 30+ ACT; bla bla bla; then you have the ability to get accepted to a very large portion of the colleges in the country. Maybe you don't get into Yale without a 4.0 and 2300 SAT / 35 ACT; but there are a lot of schools out there. And a little known secret to get you started; (Because all applicants to the academy SHOULD have other schools applied to in case); just about every school in the country promotes diversity. Unfortunately, most people consider this the same as Affirmative action or somehow race based. It doesn't always mean that. If you are from Vermont, you've got a MUCH BETTER chance of attending the University of Wyoming, Nevada, Montana, etc... then a kid from a bordering state. Why; because they probably don't have, or have very little, students from your state. ALL SCHOOLS WANT DIVERSITY. A kid from Wyoming has a much better change going to Georgia Tech then a kid with some higher scores from Florida. Why; cause a lot of kids from Florida Apply. Very few from Wyoming probably attend that school. And guess what? They are willing to give you money to do it. Apply to very far away schools. Granted; if you say you ONLY want these 2 or 3 schools; then you're on your own. I don't know what to tell you. You'll have to be prepared in case you don't get it. My son was like that with the academy. It was the Air Force or NOTHING. Doesn't mean he wouldn't still serve. He ALWAYS wanted that. It just means he WOULDN'T do it through another academy. He wouldn't even apply. Even though the Navy and Army called encouraging him to apply. Instead, he applied to a large group of colleges. Anyway; if you apply to enough schools; with the right diversification, then you can get accepted and pay almost nothing. Whether or not you want to do that or not is up to you.

Anyway; best of luck. The academies have a lot of pros and cons to it. It all depends on what it is you want out of life. Figure out what you want, then decide if the academy can give it to you. If it can, and you get an appointment, then you will find a lot of PROs to the academy. If the academy doesn't have a lot to help you achieve your goals, then an appointment here will provide you with a lot of CONs. Remember; THE ACADEMY IS NOT A GOAL!!! IT IS A MEANS TO REACHING YOUR GOALS!!! later... mike....
 
"I am not trying to discourage anybody from going to a SA, it's just that with a drop out/ washout / force out rate of 30% with these kinds of highly motivated smart kids, something's screwy. Some of them need to know there are options out there for an Ivy education without having to be abused or become an indentured servant."

Ouch!
With an average freshman retention rate of 91% and average graduation rate of 78% this beats the vast majority of colleges and universities in this nation. And one can argue that you don't not want everyone admitted to graduate - graduating from a school such as Brown and similar elites without any core curriculum would, frankly, be a piece of cake.

What my post-recognition cadet done since April 2008:
Flew to Travis AFB with his squad and had a blast in San Francisco. It helps when your college has access to several thousand aircraft.
Had a great ops assignment at Eglin AFB, hitting the beach nearly everyday after work, and getting stick time on a F-16D doing rolls at Mach 1.3.
Tour of Spain as a counselor while on summer leave... followed by a beach vacation on the Outer Banks.
Jumping out a twin otter...at least 28 times from as high as 11,000 feet AGL.
Vertical wind tunnel training at Perris Valley, CA in addition to Friday nights in Littleton, CO.

What's coming up:
Spring Break doing jump in Gilla Bend, AZ.
Spanish immersion in Peru this summer.
Teaching AM 490 this summer to fellow cadets.

When he's home what all his friends who attend real colleges want to hear about are his experiences at the Academy.
 
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As a recruiter on the admissions staff for a very selective public university I have a few points to make. First I must echo the fact that the attrition rate even at the finest universities in the nation ins NO better than that of the SA's. The "wash out" rate at Service Academies, is in fact extremely LOW in comparision. Those of us in admissions spend a great deal of time studying retention rates, graduation trends (the standard is a six year snapshot) and the public vs private arena of financial aid; endowments and federal assistance. There is no easy answer here. Private schools tend to offer more "free" money, while public instituions work closely with federal programs to provide sub and unsub financing. We have five children. We are in a decent financial bracket, but it is a struggle to finance five college educations and part of growing up is accepting responsibility. We have loaned our kids what we are able--they have taken out loans on their own, and plan to pay us back--our oldest has started this process. We certainly do not consider ourselves morally bankrupt--we are from a family of educators--college is everything to us. We have a son who hopefully will be attending an SA in the class of 2013...he wishes to serve--but the incentive of this phenomenal education that could not be matched at any of the schools he OR we could afford is certainly a factor in his decision. He and we are honest about that--just the same he is committed, and sincere. He will make it because he understands that this is a life decision not simply a college choice.
 
So for the original topic (from a 4 degree perspective)

pro's:
The experience you get here is awesome, something you won't get anywhere else and something you friends from home won't have any clue about and it will be impossible to explain to them.

Believe it or not, BCT was not that bad. Sure it sucked at times, but it wasn't terrible, just have the right attitude and you're good to go. I had an awesome flight which helped a lot.

Food is free, never said good, just free. And you have every meal covered.

How many people do you know get to say that they shot an M-16, flew in a glider, and flew in a Huey all in there first semester (and BCT) at college?

Or how about hiked to the top of a peak (Eagle's Peak) at 3 in the morning cause they were bored?

I think I only saw this mentioned once or twice, but the skiing/snowboarding out here is insane. I'm from the east so it's a wee bit better out here. I'm in the Ski Club and I'm trying to go at least every other weekend. Getting out helps a lot, especially spring semester 4 degree year, just need some time to chill out away from USAFA.

con's:

4 dig year. Not really, but kinda yea...


Don't get me wrong, 4 degree year is tough, and at times does drive me insane. But I already feel benefits from making the choice to come here. I sat on my acceptance package for about 2 or 3 months before I made up my mind to come. When I was at orientation, I just said "Heck, why not?" and just signed my papers and never looked back. I most definitely do not regret that decision one bit. You don't have to be positive you wanna go here since you were a little kid. Some people are like that and it's fine, but some others are not and that is fine as well.

Just from my perspective, I almost think it would be better to come here for at least a year, then if you wanna leave and go to a civilian college, go for it rather than the opposite way. That way you don't owe money to anybody if you switch schools, whereas if you went to a civialian college then went to USAFA, you'd still have to pay for that year (unless, of course, you get scholarships and all that jazz for being the genius you are that got you accepted to USAFA in the first place).
 
Lilly said:
Some of them need to know there are options out there for an Ivy education without having to be abused or become an indentured servant.
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I am nonplussed at how some American citizens view military service.
 
Luigi - I also, would like an explanation for that statement.

I fail to see how service academies are abusing cadets/mids and how being an Officer in the US Military is becoming an indentured servant. Mind-boggling.
 
I can't/won't speak for lilly, but I didn't read that comment in such a negative manner. I simply read it as if; some people think that the military, in whatever manner, can be viewed by some as their "Last or Only" choice at a quality education. And as such, some may not be as excited about such an option. While they're willing to serve, it isn't their first choice and they probably wish they had other options. And Lilly is saying (The way I read it); is that they should know that they do have other choices. At least that's the way I read it.
 
Thank you Christcorp for trying to save me from the torch bearing villagers.

I just want any "lurkers" to know there are other great, low cost, for all intents "free" options for an education, as opposed to the "free, what ain't free" great education at the SA's.

Definition of "indentured servant": An indentured servant is a form of debt bondage worker. The laborer is under contract of an employer for some period of time, usually three to seven years, in exchange for their transportation, food, drink, clothing, lodging and other necessities (e.g. education). Unlike a slave, an indentured servant is required to work only for a limited term specified in a signed contract.

You may not like it, you may not like the connotations, but there it is. I think the term fits pretty well. English language - go figure!

I have great respect for the military and its men and women. They do for me what I cannot do for myself...

If you don't like "abuse" or "harass," then you can just use the euphemism that makes you feel better, what is it... oh yes, "training." I can't wait to hear about some of the "training" that takes place now that "don't ask don't tell" is on Pres. Obama's chopping block.

Nevertheless, the SA's are not for everyone, military service not an inherited trait, it does not run in your DNA!! You have choices. :thumb::thumb:

That's all I'm saying, just trying to make sure everybody's got their eyes open here. :eek:
 
stvblm said:
Lilly, is that a recent pic of yourself?
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stvblm - Personal attacks are not allowed. Lilly is entitled to her opinion about these things just as you are.

Lilly - I am confused about something. Some of your posts come across as anti-military. I believe I read elsewhere that your son has an LOA to USAFA. Are you against him going to the academy?

P.S. I love black labs, I have one that just turned 11.
 
PHP:
Just_A_Mom said:
Lilly -

"My cadet sees this opportunity to attend West Point as an opportunity to get a fabulous education and graduate debt free. A much better financial deal than ROTC which doesn't pay room and board ($10,000/ year)."


Some colleges/universities throw in room and board to ROTC scholarship recipients.:smile:
Click to expand...
 
Some of the things Lilly says I agree whole heartedly with
Nevertheless, the SA's are not for everyone, military service not an inherited trait, it does not run in your DNA!! You have choices.

That's all I'm saying, just trying to make sure everybody's got their eyes open here.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't go as far as the smilies though:rolleyes:

Many ALOs will have a very serious conversation with military children. I think for them they want to delve further into why they want to go compared to the child who comes from a non-military background. At least from our experience and those who have posted. I can't recall one child of a military member that wasn't posed the question something akin to "ARE YOU DOING THIS FOR YOUR FOLKS OR FOR YOURSELF?" I do believe the ALO's can see through those answers very quickly

Is it true that many military kids choose this path at a statistically higher rate than the avg American? Probably. I think they do so for not only the pride that they take in their parents, but also they have come to enjoy the life itself. Moving is hard, but I don't think I ever heard my kids say I hated it when we lived there...instead it was do you remember when we lived there and did this?

Now do I think she ruffled feathers with her indentured servant comment? Yes, but does it have validity? Yes. You will sign a contract, they will give you an education, pay your medical, and you owe time. But to me in no way is a military member an indentured servant. They also receive financial rewards for their work, and the military has been known to release people from their obligation earlier (it is rare, but it did happen as recently as 1992-93).

Out of curiosity, many kids from sevral states in the nation get a free ride to state schools if they promise to teach in the public school system for a certain period of time...would you classify them as indentured?

I do get her point, it is something I have stated before on this thread, and was also attacked by some. You go for the education that you will get at the Academy with the knowledge that you will serve in some mannerfor a specific period. If the AFA program isn't a good fit and you only want to be a pilot, nothing else, than re-think it. You will be commissioned asa 2nd Lt in the USAF, not as a Pilot, or an Intel Officer.

If you are going because it is free, the price is too high to pay and has a long term effect on your life (you are 18...you can't even begin to see yourself at 27, it will be 1/3 of your life by then). None of us knows what the future holds regarding military operations.
Quick TRUE STORY...Bullet was stationed in the UK for Gulf I, for 6 weeks I tripped over his A-3 bag everyday, because it had to remain pack and ready to go at a moments notice. Everytime the phone rang he jumped with the hope that he was being recalled. AT the same time his cousin (an USNA grad) was asked are you as excited to go as Bullet is? He said Hell NO, I don't want to go. Why did you join then? BECAUSE I LIKED HOW I LOOKED IN THE UNIFORM. I think the day he graduated he had a long term calendar with a great big smilie face on the 5 yr marker. He is still in the reserves and shutters at the thought of military action...I spoke to him about only 18 mos ago of why he stayed in the reserves...because the paycheck is good for the little amt of time he has to serve and he gets to still fly.

The morale of the story everybody will join for different reasons, evrybody will stay and go for different reasons, but we should respect all of them for serving for whatever the reason is.
 
Thanks WAMom68, I had my tail tucked between my legs for a minute.

Since you asked, I'll come clean. Yes we got an LOA back in Nov/December time frame and got the Offer of Appointment packet in January, but we have been tripped up by asthma, even though it was all before the thirteenth birthday, we had to take the dreaded methacholine challenge test. He failed the methacholine test at the highest dose - don't get me started on how bad that test is in this kind of situation - even the military medicine text books say it's bad and not a good predictor of who's going to have problems in the future and who's not. So no waiver, no reconsideration. But that's for another board...

Disappointed? Sure. Sour grapes? Sure. Wish he could follow his dream and go to the Academy? Sure. Relief on some level. Sure.

Oh, and let me apologize now for the "don't ask, don't tell" thing up there, totally inappropriate and uncalled for, made in the heat of typing. Please accept my apologies, all.

I really am not anti-military, believe it or not, just trying to present another view point.

Now, if I could get some laser hair removal for this facial hair...:rolleyes:
 
According to reports I've seen, and info from our state's ALO director, only approximately 5% of cadets are Brats. (Military Children). You can tell them at the air force academy because they have a different colored emblem on their flight caps compared to the other students.

But Pima; you bring up a very good point about Brats. My son had shown interest in the academy for many years. But as junior high and high school progressed, he was also excelling in both athletics and academics. I didn't really think he would go to the academy if he had other options. Part of me worried when he applied. Was he doing it because of my influence on him? Was he doing it to relieve his mom and I from having to pay/help him pay for college? If I ask him, will he be honest or tell me what he thinks I want to hear? This really did concern me. While I LOVED my Air Force career, that didn't mean he would/will. "Fortunately" for him/me, he did have other options. As such, choosing the academy over the other options definitely relieved a lot of anxiety on my part. And, every time he comes home or we chat and he tells me how much the place "SUCKS"; yet he does it with a smirk on his face and says how he couldn't imagine going to any other school; that puts my mind to rest.

I personally don't care really "WHY" a person chooses to apply to and attend the air force academy; or any military academy. As long as they understand their obligation, and they take that obligation "freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion". That is all that anyone can or should ask of the person applying, enlisting, commissioned, etc... in the military. Now; will a person who's PRIMARY reason for applying, enlisting, being commissioned, etc... be that of "Serving their Country" probably have a "better and more fulfilling" time in the military/academy? Probably. It is what they want to do. I.e. A person who really wants to work as a chef will probably have a "better and more fulfilling" time working at a restaurant than someone who "Just needs a job" to pay the rent. But as long as BOTH live up to their obligation, then that's all that matters. So, whether an applicant's #1 reason for the academy/military is serving their country; cheap/free education; secure employment; medical benefits; travel; etc... That doesn't matter. As long as they all understand and live up to their obligation. Those who REALLY WANT to serve in the military will just probably have a more "Fulfilling" experience. later... mike...
 
Lilly,
I am sorry to hear about your son's situation. I remember my feelings when my son received his DODMERB disqual letter (something other than asthma). I felt terrible for him because I thought it was the end of his dream to attend West Point. He was fortunate to receive a waiver.

I am all for candidates being aware of other choices. They should not feel the military is their only option. The military and the academies are not right for everyone. My younger son has no interest in the academy but does want to pursue an AFROTC scholarship. He knows himself enough to know that the academy is not right for him and he would not be happy there.

I also don't want candidates to be scared away from the academies because they think they will be treated like dirt. Yes, plebe year is not always fun but you can get through it. Yes, the four years of academics are hard and yes, there are b.s. rules you have to put up with. If you want to serve your country, want a top-notch education, and you want the structured environment of the academy, you will get through it.

I can only speak for West Point but as a parent I see the things my son gets to experience at the academy and I am amazed and sometimes jealous. He has his complaints but overall the plusses outweigh the minuses.
 
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