public vs.private

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by backstreet, Mar 8, 2013.

  1. backstreet

    backstreet Member

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    When being selected for an EA is there a scale that makes a private university GPA equal to the GPA from a public university
     
  2. Jcc123

    Jcc123 Member

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    You do realize that "private" does not equal harder/better than "public", right?
     
  3. backstreet

    backstreet Member

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    Yea..but Ive read articles and heard that there is.a scale b/t private and public because some private schools are harder,since they tend to be a bit more rigorous. Usually the scale fluctuates between .1-.3.I just wasnt sure what it was
     
  4. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I doubt you will see any scale that adds or subtracts points based on the school.

    If there were a scale, I would think it would work in reverse of what you have asked.

    Private Universities tend to have a much smaller student body, they have a much smaller Professor/Student ratio, they use this as a big selling point during recruitment. This smaller ratio allows for much easier access to the Professors, entry level classes tend to be taught by professors rather then TA's. There are usually more academic services available to students due to the private school not having the same budget issues as the publics.

    I agree with Jcc123, Private does not always equate to harder. In my opinion a student that enjoys the benefits that a Private offers such as class size should have no reason not to excel in academics.

    My son (both of them) attended a public school, although the school was much smaller then most other publics, this is why my sons chose the school. The school has a much smaller student body, access to the professors is very good even as a freshman, and the classes, even freshman classes are taught by the professor.
    Now compare this to the local large university in our city, extremely large student body, freshman class sizes exceeding 650, most students are unable to meet with their professors until their junior year and almost all underclass classes are taught by TA's.

    Just as an example, my younger son is a sophomore, he is taking a required 400 level history class this semester. There are 24 students in the class. The professor teaches the entire class, no TA's. When they are given an Essay assignment the professor tells the students if they complete the essay by a certain date they can submit and he he will review the essay and send it back. The student can then meet with the professor to go over the remarks. The student can then edit and touch up the essay and turn it in for final grading. Try doing this at a large university, his friends just shake their head when he tells them. Because of this, there is no excuse not to get an A on that essay, it does not mean the work was easier, it just means the smaller school allows for these opportunities, the same is true for the privates.

    I admit that this is just one example and not all schools, private or public are the same.

    If I was someone on a board I would tend to give slack to a student at one of the very large universities that do not always have the opportunities of a smaller school.

    As far as some schools being perceived as more rigorous, remember that high school teacher or college professor that said on the first day of class, "I don't give A's in this class" well that has much more to do with the teachers ego then the difficulty of the class, that of course is just my opinion.
     
  5. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Every college, just like every HS has a school profile. For example, Berkeley, UVA and UNCCH are public, but from an admission perspectives they are considered to be on the scale of an Ivy.

    There are private colleges that are in the business of if you can pay you can play. Thus, they look at the school profile.

    Take even a strong college like ERAU, it is private, but it is not Notre Dame, and it is not on par with UVA. The avg SAT range 25/75th percentile is 470/590 CR 510/630 M. 79% of applicants are admitted for ERAU. UVA rates are 600/710 CR 620/740 M. 32% acceptance rate. Huge difference. This is not saying ERAU is not a great college, it is only to illustrate that AFROTCHQ knows the difference in the quality of schools.

    Honestly, if you look at your own det from last yrs results you should know how you are standing. This is not a new system for AFROTCHQ.

    For EA if I recall 50% of score is your det. CC's recommendation. Your cgpa, your SAT/ACT and PFT are the remaining percentages...I think I am missing one part. However, you get the point.

    Finally the only true difference I have ever seen published for scoring is tech vs non-tech. I believe it is a bump of 0.3 for the cgpa for techs. compared to non-techs.

    It is hard to wait, but let's be real, in the end the board has met, and whether they give any edge for private vs. public, you can't figure out whether you will get a slot or not even if you knew your score. The reason why? Because you don't how many slots will be offered and what the scores of all of the other cadets are for the board. They are going to score you all, than take a line draw it across at the number they will take. Anybody above that line gets to go to Maxwell, below they aren't going.

    Xposted with Jcleppe, but I think you are getting the point, the quality of the school matters more than if it is private or public.
     
  6. flipfloppity

    flipfloppity New Member

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    Does caliber of school matter at all when it comes to handing out UPT/ENJJPT slots? i.e. would a cadet at a Harvard or a Princeton with a 3.0 GPA be selected over a cadet at State U with a 3.5 (everything else being equal)?
     
  7. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I would imagine it will depend more on the Major then the school.

    Of course that would be assuming that a degree in say International Studies is easier at State U then it is at Harvard. Does Harvard use textbooks that are somehow harder to read then the ones used at State U.

    As Pima mentioned above:

     
  8. lrv61

    lrv61 Parent

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    Backstreet - There is an AFROTC instruction that explains the PSP (POC Selection Process). As Pima pointed out, the criteria is 50% RSS, 20% CGPA, 15% PFA and 15% SAT-E. Tech vs. non-Tech is not specifically discussed but I imagine they would adjust within the algorithm. RSS factors in commanders ranking and class size (you get points for being a big fish in a big pond). I did not see anything that specifically factored in school, but it could be baked into the algorithm as well.

    You selected your school (public/private, large/small) based on where you thought you would grow and excel for four important years of your life. You made the right choice. My son's package has also been cranked through the computer this week...my advice to him has been give 100% in all areas and leave nothing on the table.

    Good luck to you.
     
  9. flipfloppity

    flipfloppity New Member

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    In terms of GPA, there is little doubt that Harvard is more difficult than State U. The average GPA at an Ivy league school is about the same as at a State U. However, the academic caliber of the students at Harvard is generally much higher. Thus it is harder to get a 3.5 at Harvard than a 3.5 at State U. QED. Seems to me a rated board ought to consider that distinction, especially when someone with a 2.9 at one school might easily have a 4.0 somewhere else.
     
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    When it comes to UPT it is a different scoring system. The PCSM (pilot candidate selection method) is a player in the equation along with TBAS.

    The system includes
    1. RSS (Relative Standing Score) i.e. Commanders rec
    2.GPA
    3. PFT
    4. SFT ---ranking out of Maxwell...DG(top 10%), superior performer, (next 10%), top 30%, middle 30%, bottom 30%
    5. PCSM
    6. AFOQT/TBAS

    PCSM has now changed...flying hours are really changing the scores. It will also impact your TBAS because if you take your flight log with you to the test, they will give you more points. So it now is actually a double dip for cadets with flying experience.

    Not everyone asks for ENJJPT. Those that ask for it will be considered, and highest score will get the opportunity.

    One thing to understand is that as an AFROTC cadet if you want to go rated, you must apply for all 4 rated fields...pilot, CSO, RPA and ABM.

    Additionally, your major can be a player. EE and CE right now are considered critical manning fields, along with meteorology. They are only offering rated to a certain amount of those majors.

    Nowhere in the score do you see public vs private regarding a direct scale for points.

    FWIW, our DS did not request ENJJPT. ENJJPT is not the same as it was 20 yrs ago when everyone was guaranteed a fighter jet. Some feel that all it is now is prestige to say I went to ENJJPT and their chances are no better than if they went to Laughlin from a statistical perspective. Laughlin, Vance, Columbus all have been getting 22's, 16's and Strikes at the same rate.

    Here is an example:
    Sheppard
    F-22
    2 x F-15E
    F-16
    T-6 FAIP
    4 x C-17
    2 x C-130E/H
    C-130J
    2 x MC-12
    U-28
    AC-130

    CBM 13-02 Assignment Night Columbus)

    F-15E
    A-10
    F-22
    MC-12 x 2
    U-28
    C-17
    AC-130


    It is all about timing when it comes to drops. Do not assume that ENJJPT is going to have every fighter airframe, and the rest will not. As you can see, CBM had the 22 along with ENJJPT, but ENJJPT didn't have A 10s, and CBM didn't have C17s.

    Right now if you want to get a shot at ENJJPT, you really need to think about a couple of things.
    1. Get your PPL if you don't have it already.
    ~~~ It will help for your PCSM 2.0
    ~~~ AF now waives IFS for those that have their PPL.

    2. Study for the TBAS
    ~~~ You can only take it twice, and there must be 6 months in between the tests. They take the highest score.
    ~~~ If you take it by June your rising jr. yr., and do poorly you can take it again before the rated board meets.

    If you are non-tech you really want to be at the 3.3 cgpa to feel comfortable
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  11. lrv61

    lrv61 Parent

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    The AFROTC Instruction discusses the Rated Selection process in detail. GPA is only worth 10% in computing your OM. Bottom line, the Air Force is looking at much more than your school at that point.
     
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Let's back up for a second and look at one part of the score for EA selection.

    15% SAT or the AFOQT.

    Let's be real, overall when we are looking at Princeton compared to the avg state U...let's say NCST. The cadet at Princeton is going to in all likelihood have a much higher SAT score.

    I have stressed to scholarship candidates this entire yr., keep taking that SAT all the way until you graduate even if you don't get a scholarship, because it will come back to be part of your score for SFT/EA. A 25 ACT cadet with a 3.4, is going to have a problem against that 33 ACT and a 3.1 cgpa.

    There is a 5% differential, but a 33 is going to make up the points.

    Additionally, many scholarship recipients receive merit scholarships. I believe I have read that @75% of Ivy league students are on financial aid. AFROTC requires 2.5 to maintain the scholarship, most colleges require at least a 3.0, and more likely a 3.2 to keep the college merit.

    Thus, now you have them with a high SAT/ACT and a strong cgpa from a selection position.

    As far as rated boards for AFROTC. Here are some things to get.

    1. RSS = 50 points max

    Your RSS is based on the "whole person" concept and is based on you being racked and stacked against all of your classmates. Your class ranking includes all of the members of your class, regardless of whether or not they are competing for rated slots. Your AFROTC Dommander determines your class ranking, then applies the following formula. For example, if you are ranked #3 and your class size is 25, then you are number 23 in your class. Using that example, view this RSS calculating formula: (23/25)*50 = 46 points. The #10 person in your class would have an RSS of: (16/25)*50 = 32 points.

    2. CGPA

    Your Cumulative Grade Point Average (GPA) , on a 4.0 scale will be computed to include ROTC courses. Next, your GPA will be multiplied by a factor 3.75 to give you up to 15 maximum possible OM points.

    3. SFT

    Field Training is the four or six week AFROTC training camp usually accomplished the summer after your sophomore year in college. Your Field Training rating translates to the following score:

    Distinguished Graduate, top 10% - 10 Points
    Superior Performer, next 10% - 9 Points
    Top Third (not including DG or SP) - 8 Points
    Middle Third - 7 Points
    Bottom Third - 6 Points
    Not yet attended Field Training - 5 Points

    For the cadets going this summer to SFT realize wight now that you are handing away points if you don't give 110%. Points, that will really matter for rated if you don't have any flight hours.

    4. PCSM 2.0
    I would suggest you look at this link to see how it has changed for 2013.
    http://access.afpc.af.mil/pcsmdmz/faq2_0.html
    ~ Why did the PCSM scoring algorithm change ?

    The pilot training pipeline and applicant pool have changed since the TBAS version of the PCSM program became operational in 2006. The new algorithm takes into account these changes to improve prediction of success in Initial Flight Screening and Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training. It is now also calibrated to predict training performance for both manned and RPA pilot candidates

    5. AFOQT/TBAS


    Hope that helps you to understand a lot goes into the equation, and much of it is long term regarding points...RSS, PPL, SFT selection, cgpa. PFA is short term.

    Again, there is no direct points awarded, but there are indirect points. I.E. RSS, AFOQT/TBAS, SFT.

    SFT is academics too.

    Theoretically the Ivy league cadet should test out better than the state U from your perspective. Plus, for RSS if 2.9 at the Ivy is above avg, for that school, than it will be reflective in that portion. Than again, a 4.0 cadet that does nothing, but show up for LLAB may get a lower RSS because it is a whole candidate score.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  13. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    That would of course depend on which Stat U you are talking about, and never the less debatable.

    Not sure I see the logic in this one. The "Caliber of Student" is a direct result of how many applicants they have vs admissions numbers. If only one third of those that currently applied this year, apply next year the "Caliber of Student" would be a lot lower.

    There is absolutly no way for a board to know whether a student would have a better GPA at a different school, and far too many schools to compare. The idea that a student getting a 2.9 at one school would get a 4.0 at another is unlikely and demeaning to the other schools, and almost impossible to calculate. There are plenty of students that transfer out of Ivy's due to low grades, enroll in a State U only to find that the problem was not the school but the student themselves.

    There are just too many variables in play, and too many universities, for a board to start making distintions between school.
     
  14. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I agree with Jcleppe.

    Berkeley is a state school. Would anyone say it is easier than Harvard, when many of the kids that apply to HYPPMS apply to Berkeley.

    Nobody in VA would place UVA in the same category as GMU, but both are VA state colleges. Nobody in NC would place UNC Wilmington on the same level as UNC Chapel Hill.

    The one place I disagree with Jcleppe is:
    AFROTC has placed that into the equation by using the RSS, TBAS and PCSM.

    As I have illustrated, the CoC gets a voice, and a big voice. If 2.9 at one school is great, AND are involved, they will get a great RSS. The same amount of points that the cadet at the State U with a 4.0

    It is an equalizer.

    Additionally, I am sorry, but the AFOQT/TBAS is basically the AF's SAT/ACT. If you make it to an Ivy, like I said before you have a strong academic foundation. You will score high on these exams.

    That again is another way higher caliber school cadets get an indirect edge.

    Is it a fair system? No, but it is the system. As I said previously, don't worry about your cgpa if you are 2.9 tech. Worry about the new PCSM and not having any flight hours.

    Here are some posts from another AF forum

    I just checked out my PCSM 2.0, and I was surprised by the change.

    Previously, I had:

    AFOQT Pilot - 98
    PCSM - 99 (without any flying hour points)

    Now, I have

    AFOQT Pilot - 94
    PCSM - 65

    That is a 34 point decrease in my score from a score that was previously the maximum you can get. I now have about 150 hours so that will bring my score up to 96 so it is not a deal killer, but it is a little surprising. Did anyone else have something similar happen?


    Another response:

    This was discussed briefly elsewhere, but you're certainly not alone. I read that the scoring algorithms for both AFOQT and PSCM were modified, with PCSM scores changing more drastically than AFOQT.

    For comparison's sake, with 0 hours my PCSM went from 98 to 69. Will be back at 98 after 100 hours, though even just 11 hours gets me back up to 82. AFOQT Pilot composite went down 4 points and AFOQT Nav went up 1.

    So yeah, time for me to get to flying if I want to be competitive. Same likely goes for just about everyone with no/low hours, which makes sense. If the PCSM is to be an accurate predictor of success at UPT, my 98 with 0 hours was probably a little inflated. (I'll likely never admit that again though; I like to think I'm special.)


    another response:

    My PCSM stayed at 96, but now says I can get a 98 if i have 201+ hours (previously said that 96 was the max for my flight hours). Sounds like the flight hours are being more heavily weighed now. My Pilot Composite dropped 1 point and my Navigator dropped 25 points (wtf?).

    Just trying to show how the new system for PCSM is all about flight hours.
     
  15. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Pima,

    I think we agree more then it looks. It would make sense that if a Det. was at a school that has historically low GPA averages it would make sense that ranking withing that school would carry weight.

    I also agree with you that since the admission statistics at some schools are much higher, these cadets will no doubt have the higher SAT/ACT scores.

    My issue was more if a cadet that has the same high SAT and is towards the top of the Det. OML at their school which happens to be a State U, they would be on the same field of play as a similar cadet at any Ivy.

    Not all students with a 1550 SAT attend an Ivy, with scholarships being harder to get some choose not to pay the high tuition and select a State U. This does not take anything away from their scores, the SAT is still the same.

    I still do agree with your point that there will be a larger number of cadets with higher SAT's at the Ivy's. The SAT score being the factor, not the school.
     
  16. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    Good Lord, where do you people get this stuff?

    As it happens, there is empirical research into this very question, so we don't need to depend upon complete guesswork prefaced by "there is little doubt". You are correct that there is little doubt, because there is no doubt at all after reviewing the research. And you're flat out wrong. An ex full Professor at Duke in Hydrology is of the opinion that grading is extremely inflated currently vs. 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. He also lists the exact average campus wide GPA for about 100 schools in the US. The average student GPA at an elite private is about 0.3 GPA higher than at an elite Public.

    In his longitudinal study, he finds an approx. .3-.4 average full campus GPA differential in favor of elite Privates (HYPSM, Duke, other Ivies, Amherst/Williams/Pomona, etc.) vs. elite Publics (Berkeley, UCLA, UVA, UMich, UNC, Gtech, William and Mary, etc.) There are always exceptions, such as Princeton, Swarthmore, where overt efforts have been undertaken by faculty to curb rampant grade inflation.

    Have a look at the charts on this website for a school by school comparision.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_GRyx5GSyw...Qd95INke0/s1600-h/recenttrendsindschools2.gif

    The larger website from which this chart was extracted is: http://www.gradeinflation.com/ At the bottom is a list of colleges and Universities. Click on them one by one to look at their historical average GPAs. About two pages down on your screen, check out the chart "Variability in grading, US Colleges, 1920 - 2006" where Private and Public are separately grouped and shown.

    For example, Brown's ave GPA is 3.65 (lots of courses are offered pass/fail, which tends to inflate ave. GPA). Harvard and Stanford are about 3.6, Yale is 3.5, and on down the line of elite Privates. Berkeley and UCLA are about 3.25. Cal State University, San Jose, is 2.8. This is not related to your quesiton, but the ave GPA across a given campus goes up approx. 0.1 each decade, so that ave GPA of 2.9 in 1960 is about 3.4 today. Don't tell your parents that... they will be very impressed with a 3.3 GPA, not realizing it might be below the average for your college!

    A more relevant question for ROTC Order of Merit points and resultant OML is the difference in average country-wide GPA within Engineering, Math/Sciences, Social Sciences, and Arts/Humanities. With arts/humanities as the baseline, ave GPA across the US breaks out approx. like this: Social Sciences: -.15 Sciences -.25 Engineering -.35, so that a 3.0 in Engineering is equivalent to a 3.1 in Math/Science, a 3.2 in Social Science, and a 3.35 in Arts/Humanities.

    Within ROTC, should be a more rational normalization of GPA between the four categories, which happen to nicely map the AROTC's ADM1, ADM2, ADM3, and ADM4? The attempted current normalization in Army ROTC is to add 0.1 for Engineering Majors, 0.5 for math/science majors, nothing for Social Science. This does not bridge the average country-wide GPA gap betwen these four categories by even 33%.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  17. vareporter

    vareporter Member

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    Bingo!! I totally agree. I dare to say my daughter's engineering curriculum at UVa has been more rigorous than a liberal arts major at Brown. Broad brush stroke assumptions only work if you're comparing apples to apples.
     
  18. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I am with vareporter.

    VMI is private in VA, but look at their stats compared to UVA and VT.

    dunninla, we are getting in the weeds.

    Flipfloppity is AFROTC, not AROTC. The OML system is different, starting with the fact that as a sophomore in college they must attend SFT...EA board to remain in AFROTC. Scholarship or not they are all on the chopping block. No SFT - dis-enrollment.

    It is an equation that the board uses. Irv61 and I have posted the AFROTC system that will be used.

    No offense, but just saying it is the do or die for most cadets, in AFROTC. In this environment there is no try again next yr.

    For flipfloppity, they are asking about rated.

    I have illustrated the break down.

    I agree with vareporter because I am a VA resident.

    UVA is number 2 nationally ranked for public universities, with a 33% acceptance rate. They are known as a public Ivy. SAT scores of 1400+

    Now let's look at VMI, which is private in VA has 1155 and 45% acceptance rate.

    VT, another SMC IS public for VA has an avg if 1250 SAT for admittance.

    You can see, academically the public/state U's academically beat the private. That is what Jcleppe was stating as far as I understood.


    flipfloppity wants to fly, he/she needs SFT, and more importantly necause of PCSM 2.0 needs flight hrs to get rated.

    Fight all you want about public vs private, but when it comes down to winging in the AF, public vs private is complete BS regarding chancing.

    If they don't get the new system, than they will be left in the dust.
     
  19. bruno

    bruno Retired Staff Member

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    :confused:
    You mean to tell me that after all of the time you spend posting on this forum -not to mention being a resident of the state of Virginia -you don't know that VMI is a state college & has been a state college since 1839?:scratch: It takes something away from your credibility in an argument when you are mistaken in something as basic as that. BTW- should you be interested - the class of 2016 profile is at the link below
    http://www.vmi.edu/uploadedFiles/Admissions/Class_of_2015 Sheet1.pdf


    Oh BTW- Jcleppe is on target IMHO
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  20. HerksRule

    HerksRule Member

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