Russia/Ukraine

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Nice example to set for aspiring Military Officers. Or is this an invitation to compare the greatest hits of the CIC with those of his predecessors?
I'm pretty sure you tried that yesterday.

I don't understand yours or Supersix00's problem with his post.

CiC statement was terrible and was viewed around the world as a green light for Putin, intentional, intended or not. It was a dumb thing to say and was predicted by many to accelerate what was probably inevitable anyway.

THParent then goes on to mock Putin's justification for the invasion "to get rid of Nazi's" or words to that effect.

Talk of unity? Maybe spend a little time with comprehension before slinging arrows.
 
You know that I wasn't saying that, right? I quoted The Leader of The Free World there. He said that on January 19th.

Of course, within an hour, Jen Psaki clarified exactly what he was scripted to say (but didn't actually say), just to clear it up for everyone in case they actually paid any attention whatsoever to the press conference debacle. The next day, POTUS clarified that he didn't know what he was talking about at the previous day's press conference and took a more hard-line stance. All better, probably. Come on, man!™

Meanwhile, back at the Kremlin...
View attachment 11312
I swiped your photo for social media.... Thanks!
 
MOD Note:

EVERYONE - Please settle down and focus on the following:
  • Be respectful of our elected officials past and present. (one member has been banned as a result of a post on this thread already).
  • Express your own views with courtesy. You can disagree without being disagreeable.
  • Focus on foreign policy and military actions. If it continues to get political, the thread will be locked.
 
We have supported and will in the future support some of the worst (Stalin) the world has to offer
- The enemy of my enemy is my friend.....
Russia wants a puppet government in Ukraine as a buffer between them and NATO, they want resources (Ukraine is the 'breadbasket of Europe), and they want warm water ports, among other things.
- Not sure where this came from, but almost verbatim to things I learned as a Poli Sci major at USNA in the early 1980's. The leopard doesn't change its spots. I recall a USMC Colonel, Asst Defense Attache to Moscow coming in and giving us a pretty candid talk about the Russian mindset, and everything he says still rings true.

Way to show unity. You should feel a real sense of personal pride. Do you even know who the good guys are?
Please, please, tell me who the Good Guys are, I've been trying to figure that out for 60 years ! I've known some good (great ) guys over the years, and some of them are even politicians. "Unity" isn't blindly following or even supporting a leader. Uniformed service members have a duty to follow the lawful orders of those appointed above them, but it doesn't mean total , blind subservience. There are many on this Forum who have served to defend the right to have opinions and I will certainly provide mine even if it makes someone uncomfortable.
 
Russia wants a puppet government in Ukraine as a buffer between them and NATO
NATO is not the threat. The threat is the possible example of a functioning Western style Democracy serving as an example to the Russian people. Are there problems with corruption? Absolutely. Much of that corruption is based on Ukraine's continued integration with Russia. From the Baltics to Poland the Czech/Slovak republics and Hungary the integration with the West has been a huge success. That's what Ukrainians want and what Russia wants to prevent.

they want resources (Ukraine is the 'breadbasket of Europe), and they want warm water ports, among other things.
More warm water ports yes although they were never denied birthing space on a competitive free market basis in Ukraine prior to 2014. "Breadbasket of Europe" is so 19th century. When I broke into the grain biz in 1979 the USSR consistently imported 30-40 mil. tons of grains and oilseeds. Today Russia and Ukraine alone export over 100 mil., of which Russia accounts for just under half. Ukrainian resources are the least of Russia's interests.

The 'swift and serious' sanctions haven't been very swift, are being rolled out in phases, and NATO countries are already pressuring to water them down, due to the their predicted negative impact. None of the big ticket segments of the Russian economy are being targeted, and it doesn't look like they will be.
Define big ticket. The first four are very big and the invasion is less than 48 hours old. We'll see how other Western nations fall in line.
  • Cut off Russia's largest financial institution, Sberbank, and 25 of its subsidiaries from the US financial system. Sberbank holds nearly one-third of the overall Russian banking sector's assets
  • "Full blocking sanctions" on VTB Bank, Russia second largest bank, and 20 of its subsidiaries.
  • "Full blocking sanctions" on three other large Russia banks: Bank Otkritie, Sovcombank OJSC, and Novikombank.
  • Cut off 13 major state-owned companies from raising money from the US market. The list include: Sberbank, AlfaBank, Credit Bank of Moscow, Gazprombank, Russian Agricultural Bank, Gazprom, Gazprom Neft, Transneft, Rostelecom, RusHydro, Alrosa, Sovcomflot, and Russian Railways.
  • Sanctions on Russian elites and family members. The list: Sergei Ivanov (and his son, Sergei), Andrey Patrushev (and his son Nikolai), Igor Sechin (and his son Ivan), Andrey Puchkov, Yuriy Solviev (and two real estate companies he owns), Galina Ulyutina, and Alexander Vedyakhin.
  • Sanctions on 24 Belarusian people and companies. This includes "two significant Belarusian state-owned banks, nine defense firms, and seven regime-connected official and elites," according to the White House.
  • Sanctions on the Russian military.
  • Sanctions on certain technological imports into Russia.
 
If I'm bent on expanding my country's influence, all I need to hear from the USA is:
Point 1: You trivialized the numerous and complex root causes for the Russian invasion in to a single "all I need to hear" political, low blow.
Point 2: You took the opportunity to lay the blame fully on the POTUS, which again was purely political and not factual.

I don't understand yours or Supersix00's problem with his post.
Commentary: The first was inaccurate, the second wasn't respectful of presently elected officials. But neither bothered me as much as the spirit and timing with which is was posted. I have a problem with political grandstanding during crises, especially when there is an opportunity for national unity. Was I ever tempted to do it myself? Absolutely. Have i done it myself? Sadly yes. Is it easy to do? It literally requires no discernment. Is it moral? Is it beneficial? Is anything honorable about it? Does it reflect the values of SA's? Listen, I admit that I screw up a lot, but I bite my tongue a lot on here. Listening to blatant misinformation over and over, watching the immature comments/reactions, hearing people attack the integrity of top brass generals just because they don't align politically... I filter 99% of it out. And when Trump avoided starting a war with Iran, I credited him for it. Bottom line, I expected more out of all of you, my fellow red, white and blue brothers and sisters - the good guys. And I expect more out of myself.

You know that I wasn't saying that, right?
I knew exactly who you were quoting.

Talk of unity? Maybe spend a little time with comprehension before slinging arrows.
Interesting that you didn't comprehend that I knew exactly what he was saying. And you don't "sling" arrows, fool. (just kidding, sorry.)
 
Hey yall, tough times, nerves are on the high, I know. Let's keep the chat respectful; I know the mods have said this, but let me repeat it. I've seen a lot of premature arguments in this thread, but I will remind you that we are all equals, please treat each other as such.
 
I'm not sure we can bleed Putin and Russia dry this time because I don't think he'll take the bait again. As long as Putin is convinced the West will not send their own sons and daughters into a war zone he is only going to build enough military to beat and hold his satellites and keep NATO from thinking it can easily cross into his territory.

Also, I think as long as he can feed his people and find a market to sell a portion of his natural resources he doesn't need a particularly well-functioning economy. I'm not sure how many folks are too invested in the Moscow stock exchange. OTOH I'm also not sure how well this will play out if they start seeing too many plane loads of dead soldiers coming home like Afghanistan in 1980 or even Chechnya in the 90s. Control of media, social or otherwise, only goes so far in that type of situation. A lot will depend on how the sanctions affect the non-rich, because Putin almost certainly has the oligarchs in line. I trust him to be able to whack them more than their ability to get to him.

EDIT: I also believe that a lot more of this war, at least the parts between the superpowers, will be conducted online than in meatspace. That's significantly cheaper than tanks and submarines, which is the other reason they aren't going to go broke in this escalation.
 
Point 1: You trivialized the numerous and complex root causes for the Russian invasion in to a single "all I need to hear" political, low blow.
Point 2: You took the opportunity to lay the blame fully on the POTUS, which again was purely political and not factual.


Commentary: The first was inaccurate, the second wasn't respectful of presently elected officials. But neither bothered me as much as the spirit and timing with which is was posted. I have a problem with political grandstanding during crises, especially when there is an opportunity for national unity. Was I ever tempted to do it myself? Absolutely. Have i done it myself? Sadly yes. Is it easy to do? It literally requires no discernment. Is it moral? Is it beneficial? Is anything honorable about it? Does it reflect the values of SA's? Listen, I admit that I screw up a lot, but I bite my tongue a lot on here. Listening to blatant misinformation over and over, watching the immature comments/reactions, hearing people attack the integrity of top brass generals just because they don't align politically... I filter 99% of it out. And when Trump avoided starting a war with Iran, I credited him for it. Bottom line, I expected more out of all of you, my fellow red, white and blue brothers and sisters - the good guys. And I expect more out of myself.


I knew exactly who you were quoting.


Interesting that you didn't comprehend that I knew exactly what he was saying. And you don't "sling" arrows, fool. (just kidding, sorry.)
Nice. It doesn't matter that I meant to type "flinging" and was also thinking "slings and arrows" and made a typo (or is that a Freudian slip?)...attack!

On the body of your post we will just have to agree to disagree. I understand a bit better the problem you had with the post mentioned, I didn't read it that way and still don't.

If you reference my post it should be clear that I concede that the invasion was likely inevitable, regardless of the POTUS statement. However I also believe it was a terrible statement on our foreign policy, or rather the wording was extremely unfortunate, even if the sentiment that could be inferred from it I happen to agree with. What I believe POTUS was trying to say is that our response will be proportional to Putin's aggression. But that is not what he said and MANY people in the world thought some version of "oh crap."

Despite what the other guy (not you) said, it is not "naive" to think that Putin pays attention to what our POTUS says. I think it is quite the opposite, I am quite certain he listens very carefully. What is probably naive is thinking that he will comply with what our POTUS says without some extrinsic motivation. Any time a world leader makes a statement it can be expected that it will be used for and against them. The goal should be to maximize the "for" and minimize the opportunities of "against". In other words, when you are in the big chair, it's best to choose your words carefully. Gosh, I am a "fool" for having typed an "s" instead of an "f", think what would be said of POTUS if he did something similar.

My takeaway from THParent's post was different than yours. Putin made what appears to me to be an outrageous statement that they were going in to get rid of Nazism. Potus made a statement that caused an international uproar (for a short time) that it was a green light to Putin. I took THParent's comment as an attempt at levity, a commentary on the ridiculousness of the entire situation. I read it as an attack on Putin that Putin is going to do what Putin is going to do and any crazy reason he can come up with to justify it he will.

You took it as an attack on POTUS. Such is the risk of written communication. Do me a favor, you don't owe me anything but I would appreciate it. Go back and read THParent's post from the perspective I had and see if maybe, possibly you could have got it wrong. Maybe/probably you won't, but it is a worthy mental exercise.
 
On a completely different tangent, I was speaking with someone who suggested the sanctions could make oligarchs more dependent on Putin as they would lack anyone to turn to and they also would lack the power or resources to oppose him. An interesting thought. Could definitely see Putin using the sanctions as a way to prove he is the only one capable of protecting Russia from the West. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts regarding this little theory.
 
Nice. It doesn't matter that I meant to type "flinging" and was also thinking "slings and arrows" and made a typo (or is that a Freudian slip?)...attack!

On the body of your post we will just have to agree to disagree. I understand a bit better the problem you had with the post mentioned, I didn't read it that way and still don't.

If you reference my post it should be clear that I concede that the invasion was likely inevitable, regardless of the POTUS statement. However I also believe it was a terrible statement on our foreign policy, or rather the wording was extremely unfortunate, even if the sentiment that could be inferred from it I happen to agree with. What I believe POTUS was trying to say is that our response will be proportional to Putin's aggression. But that is not what he said and MANY people in the world thought some version of "oh crap."

Despite what the other guy (not you) said, it is not "naive" to think that Putin pays attention to what our POTUS says. I think it is quite the opposite, I am quite certain he listens very carefully. What is probably naive is thinking that he will comply with what our POTUS says without some extrinsic motivation. Any time a world leader makes a statement it can be expected that it will be used for and against them. The goal should be to maximize the "for" and minimize the opportunities of "against". In other words, when you are in the big chair, it's best to choose your words carefully. Gosh, I am a "fool" for having typed an "s" instead of an "f", think what would be said of POTUS if he did something similar.

My takeaway from THParent's post was different than yours. Putin made what appears to me to be an outrageous statement that they were going in to get rid of Nazism. Potus made a statement that caused an international uproar (for a short time) that it was a green light to Putin. I took THParent's comment as an attempt at levity, a commentary on the ridiculousness of the entire situation. I read it as an attack on Putin that Putin is going to do what Putin is going to do and any crazy reason he can come up with to justify it he will.

You took it as an attack on POTUS. Such is the risk of written communication. Do me a favor, you don't owe me anything but I would appreciate it. Go back and read THParent's post from the perspective I had and see if maybe, possibly you could have got it wrong. Maybe/probably you won't, but it is a worthy mental exercise.
Fair reply and request. I tried, but still looks the same. But sorry again for the joke at the end. You’re not a fool.
 
On a completely different tangent, I was speaking with someone who suggested the sanctions could make oligarchs more dependent on Putin as they would lack anyone to turn to and they also would lack the power or resources to oppose him. An interesting thought. Could definitely see Putin using the sanctions as a way to prove he is the only one capable of protecting Russia from the West. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts regarding this little theory.
I imagine there is some workaround, where the Russian elite moves operations abroad to avoid these sanctions, which in that case, could weaken Russia.
 
There are labs there if one believes Quanon, info wars or Russian propaganda

https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/02/24/us-biolabs-ukraine-russia/
I saw it on twitter. Didn’t know it was disinformation (if it is) - that’s why I asked.

Quite honestly I wouldn’t trust snopes for anything.

I love the qanon reference. It is funny - I never followed qanon. But I did read q years ago. Easy to dismiss q - until you go back in the library and see things that turned out to be true - for instance Sussman involvement in the russian hoax. Never heard of the guy outside of Q. Until Durham indicted him.

I met Sebastian Gorka in DC for an event my son was at. Asked him about Q. His reaction was amazing - attacked it as dangerous. Said he gets a lot of stuff right because he clearly has inside connections.

Infowars gets a bad rap too. I personally dislike Alex Jones and won’t listen to him after the Sandy Hook nonsense. But he has been right about a lot.

Russian propaganda? Every country has propaganda. Including the US.

I wonder what everyone thinks about Assange. ;)

Edit:

Not sure if this site is real (it is a .gov site) -

 
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Can I ask a really simplistic question? Mind you I’m just a mom of a SA kid and midsib and have no geopolitical education or military experience.

I don’t see how bringing Ukraine into NATO would ever have benefited NATO. As I understand it, to bring a country in, all member countries must have some benefit.
Ukraine would be one step too close to Putin’s beloved Mother Russia and the buffer zone of Ukraine would be gone. Conversely, if he raised a pinky against Ukraine all NATO nations would then be obligated by Article 5 to act. Keeping Ukraine out keeps NATO more protected as a whole, at least from going toe to toe with a massive nuclear power with a billionaire oligarch with his hand on the launch codes.

Why didn’t we just say Ukraine becoming a member nation was a no go. A hard no go. Would that have helped? We have had months, months to try that tact and we didn’t. It boggles my mind.

Open to some polite schooling. And the images coming out of an impoverished citizenry in Ukraine are heart wrenching.
 
Can I ask a really simplistic question? Mind you I’m just a mom of a SA kid and midsib and have no geopolitical education or military experience.

I don’t see how bringing Ukraine into NATO would ever have benefited NATO. As I understand it, to bring a country in, all member countries must have some benefit.
Ukraine would be one step too close to Putin’s beloved Mother Russia and the buffer zone of Ukraine would be gone. Conversely, if he raised a pinky against Ukraine all NATO nations would then be obligated by Article 5 to act. Keeping Ukraine out keeps NATO more protected as a whole, at least from going toe to toe with a massive nuclear power with a billionaire oligarch with his hand on the launch codes.

Why didn’t we just say Ukraine becoming a member nation was a no go. A hard no go. Would that have helped? We have had months, months to try that tact and we didn’t. It boggles my mind.

Open to some polite schooling. And the images coming out of an impoverished citizenry in Ukraine are heart wrenching.

Read the basic history here:

 
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