- Joined
- Jul 25, 2009
- Messages
- 1,027
Or on the inside of their arteries.
As one of my favorite comedians Jim Gaffigan points out - Everything is better with BACON....ummm BACON....
The Grinder
- Thread starter kpbaseballmom
- Start date
As one of my favorite comedians Jim Gaffigan points out - Everything is better with BACON....ummm BACON....
kpbaseballmom
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2008
- Messages
- 149
How did Barney Square get the nickname "The Grinder"
As the mother of a mid and the mother of a 2nd Lt in the Marines, there is a vast difference in the training, as it should be. Check out:
Class 186 The Making of a Marine Officer
Oh, my 5' 3" daughter is the Marine officer, newly minted.
I'm proud of both my children's efforts!
As the mother of a mid and the mother of a 2nd Lt in the Marines, there is a vast difference in the training, as it should be. Check out:
Class 186 The Making of a Marine Officer
Oh, my 5' 3" daughter is the Marine officer, newly minted.
I'm proud of both my children's efforts!
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2009
- Messages
- 1,027
I couldn't agree with you more.
So I will further wonder aloud here, that given we both agree there is and should be a vast difference in the training that should be given to a Marine vs. a Merchant Marine why would anyone feel that hiring and having so many former members of the USMC - folks who have 20+ years of experience as such rather than say 10-20+ years of sea going experience aboard Merchant Ships on the Commandant's Staff is the right thing to do? Also if you felt that those folks USMC experience was useful and relevant, wouldn't you then still wish to put in place a clear program that still ensured, they were exposed to for some length of time and developed a clear understanding and appreciation for the actual, primary real world environment they were responsible for training people to be leaders in. Especially given that environment is so different from the environment that commissioned officer's in the US Military must manage and lead people in? After all, the US Merchant Marine is primarily commercial ships where the crew was a group of experienced, professional, and usually unionized mariners; that's a far cry from an environ where folks are subject to the UCMJ.
I'd like to make it clear, this is not in any way attacking the current administrative leadership at the Academy. In fact I've said it before here and I'll say it again, I believe Capt. Fell is an able, and well qualified person for his job as Commandant of Midshipmen and is doing a good job. I say this as he is a career former Marine (Colonel, Retired) or I wouldn't specifically cite him by name here. In his various positions at the Academy he has made a clear effort to start to get an appreciation for the differences needed by young Third A/E and Third Mates from 2nd LTs and he is readily accessible and approachable to the regiment from what I've seen. So I'm not saying that being a former/retired Marine should preclude one from a position on the Commandant's Staff. I am saying that I feel that perspective and leadership style is "over-represented" by the current staff. IMO, there are other retired Marines who have been at the USMMA far longer that are on his staff who still, repeatedly demonstrate through their words and actions they have no understanding of those differences, nor do they desire to obtain that understanding. Further the inclusion and representation of more, experienced licensed Merchant Mariners on the Commandant's staff might also have other benefits such as providing additional licensed officers other than members of the Nautical Science and Marine Engineering Staff who could accompany midshipmen and participate in their training on voyages underway aboard the Kings Pointer, etc. After all my understanding is that one of the points of having a regimental system is to ensure the Midshipmen learn what it takes to be a good watch-stander. Perhaps some additional input from Licensed experienced deck and engineering officers who have regularly stood watch on Merchant ships perspective, would ensure that if the focus were changed from, say something like memorizing the "11 General Orders", it would be changed to something more relevant to a young Third A/E or Mate.
I should apologize here for "piling on" and continuing to stir this pot and I will. However I am passionate and committed to this item as it's one of the issues issue that I feel Capt. Fell, Dean Kumar, and the next Superintendent, whoever is selected, need to quickly address in order to ensure Secretary LaHood and Acting Administrator Matsuda's vision of the USMMA becoming a gem in the Nation's Service Academy Family, one I believe should have it's own identity, and a World Class, if not the World's Acknowledged Best, Maritime Training Academy.
Sea Faring Moose Mom
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2010
- Messages
- 129
Exceptionally Well Stated
I totally agree with you, jasperdog. From the Superintendent to the Company Commander through the teachers.....EXPERIENCE MARINERS...as many as possible. A small mix of other branches, as others have stated, as a 'liasion to consult with any Midshipman who want to go Active duty but not try to control the daily life of the regiment or individuals'.
Some major issues would have not happened if my DD had had more teachers and a Company Commander who understood the Mission of USMMA as has been previously stated. Captain Fell has been most supportive to my DD in these issues.
I totally agree with you, jasperdog. From the Superintendent to the Company Commander through the teachers.....EXPERIENCE MARINERS...as many as possible. A small mix of other branches, as others have stated, as a 'liasion to consult with any Midshipman who want to go Active duty but not try to control the daily life of the regiment or individuals'.
Some major issues would have not happened if my DD had had more teachers and a Company Commander who understood the Mission of USMMA as has been previously stated. Captain Fell has been most supportive to my DD in these issues.
Last edited:
kpbaseballmom
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2008
- Messages
- 149
Semper Fidelis
P
P
kpbaseballmom
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2008
- Messages
- 149
USMC at KP
Can someone quantify how many former/current Marines there are at KP and in what positions? Also, would a former mariner be interested in these positions now filled by the Marines? Are these mostly regimental training type positions? Is it important for someone to have had military training to function in these positions?
These are questions that as a parent we have no idea. My very naive sense it that these regimental training positions are filled will former military to bring that sense of discipline that is an integral part of becoming a maritime officer.
What's interesting is that sometimes people here will say that the regimental life is too loose and others say it is too strict.
Many KP mids have figured out how to deal with the Marines at KP - just do what they say and let the rest roll off your back. Don't take anything personally.
Can someone quantify how many former/current Marines there are at KP and in what positions? Also, would a former mariner be interested in these positions now filled by the Marines? Are these mostly regimental training type positions? Is it important for someone to have had military training to function in these positions?
These are questions that as a parent we have no idea. My very naive sense it that these regimental training positions are filled will former military to bring that sense of discipline that is an integral part of becoming a maritime officer.
What's interesting is that sometimes people here will say that the regimental life is too loose and others say it is too strict.
Many KP mids have figured out how to deal with the Marines at KP - just do what they say and let the rest roll off your back. Don't take anything personally.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2009
- Messages
- 353
Me too. On all three points.
kpbaseballmom,
Of the ones I know...
Commandant - USNA grad, went into the Marine Corps, have no idea what rank he attained. I would say that (when I was there) the majority of the regiment liked him. He was approachable, realistic and adapted himself into the school. It also helps that he was at KP for a long time as a coach and knew what was going on and what we did. He took time to get himself on the water and somewhat see what it is that we actually do.
Before I get into the CO's, let me just briefly mention what I think a good CO is and does. Remember, CO in this instance is not Commanding Officer, but rather Company Officer. There is a big difference in that one is actually part of the chain of command and one is not. On paper, the regimental system at KP is setup so that the CO's are not supposed to be involved with the daily running of the regiment, except if things get way out of hand (and I don't constitute long sideburns as "out of hand"). They are there to provide the open door that is a mid's first step outside of fellow midshipmen to go to, if they have a concern, problem etc. They should set the eample without making an example. Last but definitely not least, they should be familiar with the school, its mission and the general career that graduates will typically follow. I had a couple great CO's at KP but also a couple not so great.
First Company CO's (GYSGT and CAPT) - These are two active duty Marines that technically are just the USMC liasions to KP, just as every other service has its own liasion (none of which involve themselves with the regiment though). While they are no doubt fine Marines and respected for that, their leadership style just doesn't fit (in my opinion) in with the training needed to be a succesful merchant marine officer. From what I saw, they showed little interest in learning what it is we do and expected us to just blindly conform to their USMC-way of handling things. They were not that approachable and just entering their office required a 12-step process. So, it was all of this and in the meantime, they had little clue on what was going on (as pointed out at the end of my last post).
I would also like to point out again that the predecessor to these two was a MSGT who, while he also started out "full-bore", eventually adapted himself and his leadership style to conform more to the mission of the school. He scored big points from the regiment, particularly First Co. for doing so. Things ran much smoother. Funny thing is that he was definitely more of what would be considered a true combat Marine, through and through.
And, last but certainly not least....
Reg Officer / Third Co CO / Former Fourth Co CO / Former GYSGT but now LCDR - This gentleman has been at KP for quite some time. He has also earned himself quite the reputation. While I personally did not have many one-on-one run-ins with him and never lived under his reign (at least directly), his thunder was felt by all. I'll pass on any opinion of him and let others who were more, uh, "familiar" with him form one of their own.
To be clear, none of this has anything to do with the USMC as a service and these individuals as being fine servicemen. There certainly is room at KP for them to have a presence, just as every other service does. However, I just don't think the leadership style that is typical and expected in the USMC is condusive to the training of a martime officer (I'll address the military officer component in a bit).
As jasperdog pointed out, civilian mariners are very different than enlisted servicemen. While there may be room to "dress-down" a sailor on a Navy ship with hundrds of people onboard, you simply can't act that way on a merchant ship with civilian, unionized mariners. I have yet to personally see a captain, chief engineer, chief mate, etc. yell or lose their cool on ANYONE at sea. We have small crews in relativley confined quarters and there is simply no room for that kind of behavior and it sets a bad example for the younger officers. The same guy who stands lookout on my watch, is the same one handling lines on my end during maneuvering, is the same guy on my fire team and can literally screw over my career and license (and the captain's) very easily. We have to have cohesion and trust in each other. If the captain or chief has a problem with someone, he'll meet with him privately. In First Company at KP, yelling was a daily occurrence, often followed by IT. As a first classman, this certainly didn't further my leadership development.
As for the military training aspect, from what I learned and saw at my first AT in San Diego, the Navy loves us because we don't have that typical, full-time military background and oo-rah leadership style. In fact, they are always so curious and in awe that we run similar-sized and even larger vessels with a tiny fraction of the manpower. Let me tell you that it doesn't happen because we go off on our sailors on a daily basis (not that they do either, nevertheless that kind of behavior doesn't help). Two USS ships right now have full civilian engine crews (with a lot less people needed) and the Navy is looking to do similar downsizing in their deck departments. They are turning to merchant mariners for consultation in this matter.
In short, I think what sets KP (and its graduates) apart from its counterparts at the other maritime schools and service academies is that we have both the technical skills and knowledge, along with real-world experience and responsibility (all before graduation) to lead people successfully whether it's on a ship, tug, warship, whatever. The leadership at KP needs to build the mids (especially the 1/C) up from that experience - not making me do push-ups because my sideburns are a half-inch too long. No offense to the USMC but, frankly, I don't think they're the right people for that job. KP is not Annapolis and none of us want it to be.
And yes, there have been plenty of CO's that were either graduates or had at least sailed at some point. They maintain a much lower presence though and only intervene when appropriate and conducive to the learning environment.
Of the ones I know...
Commandant - USNA grad, went into the Marine Corps, have no idea what rank he attained. I would say that (when I was there) the majority of the regiment liked him. He was approachable, realistic and adapted himself into the school. It also helps that he was at KP for a long time as a coach and knew what was going on and what we did. He took time to get himself on the water and somewhat see what it is that we actually do.
Before I get into the CO's, let me just briefly mention what I think a good CO is and does. Remember, CO in this instance is not Commanding Officer, but rather Company Officer. There is a big difference in that one is actually part of the chain of command and one is not. On paper, the regimental system at KP is setup so that the CO's are not supposed to be involved with the daily running of the regiment, except if things get way out of hand (and I don't constitute long sideburns as "out of hand"). They are there to provide the open door that is a mid's first step outside of fellow midshipmen to go to, if they have a concern, problem etc. They should set the eample without making an example. Last but definitely not least, they should be familiar with the school, its mission and the general career that graduates will typically follow. I had a couple great CO's at KP but also a couple not so great.
First Company CO's (GYSGT and CAPT) - These are two active duty Marines that technically are just the USMC liasions to KP, just as every other service has its own liasion (none of which involve themselves with the regiment though). While they are no doubt fine Marines and respected for that, their leadership style just doesn't fit (in my opinion) in with the training needed to be a succesful merchant marine officer. From what I saw, they showed little interest in learning what it is we do and expected us to just blindly conform to their USMC-way of handling things. They were not that approachable and just entering their office required a 12-step process. So, it was all of this and in the meantime, they had little clue on what was going on (as pointed out at the end of my last post).
I would also like to point out again that the predecessor to these two was a MSGT who, while he also started out "full-bore", eventually adapted himself and his leadership style to conform more to the mission of the school. He scored big points from the regiment, particularly First Co. for doing so. Things ran much smoother. Funny thing is that he was definitely more of what would be considered a true combat Marine, through and through.
And, last but certainly not least....
Reg Officer / Third Co CO / Former Fourth Co CO / Former GYSGT but now LCDR - This gentleman has been at KP for quite some time. He has also earned himself quite the reputation. While I personally did not have many one-on-one run-ins with him and never lived under his reign (at least directly), his thunder was felt by all. I'll pass on any opinion of him and let others who were more, uh, "familiar" with him form one of their own.
To be clear, none of this has anything to do with the USMC as a service and these individuals as being fine servicemen. There certainly is room at KP for them to have a presence, just as every other service does. However, I just don't think the leadership style that is typical and expected in the USMC is condusive to the training of a martime officer (I'll address the military officer component in a bit).
As jasperdog pointed out, civilian mariners are very different than enlisted servicemen. While there may be room to "dress-down" a sailor on a Navy ship with hundrds of people onboard, you simply can't act that way on a merchant ship with civilian, unionized mariners. I have yet to personally see a captain, chief engineer, chief mate, etc. yell or lose their cool on ANYONE at sea. We have small crews in relativley confined quarters and there is simply no room for that kind of behavior and it sets a bad example for the younger officers. The same guy who stands lookout on my watch, is the same one handling lines on my end during maneuvering, is the same guy on my fire team and can literally screw over my career and license (and the captain's) very easily. We have to have cohesion and trust in each other. If the captain or chief has a problem with someone, he'll meet with him privately. In First Company at KP, yelling was a daily occurrence, often followed by IT. As a first classman, this certainly didn't further my leadership development.
As for the military training aspect, from what I learned and saw at my first AT in San Diego, the Navy loves us because we don't have that typical, full-time military background and oo-rah leadership style. In fact, they are always so curious and in awe that we run similar-sized and even larger vessels with a tiny fraction of the manpower. Let me tell you that it doesn't happen because we go off on our sailors on a daily basis (not that they do either, nevertheless that kind of behavior doesn't help). Two USS ships right now have full civilian engine crews (with a lot less people needed) and the Navy is looking to do similar downsizing in their deck departments. They are turning to merchant mariners for consultation in this matter.
In short, I think what sets KP (and its graduates) apart from its counterparts at the other maritime schools and service academies is that we have both the technical skills and knowledge, along with real-world experience and responsibility (all before graduation) to lead people successfully whether it's on a ship, tug, warship, whatever. The leadership at KP needs to build the mids (especially the 1/C) up from that experience - not making me do push-ups because my sideburns are a half-inch too long. No offense to the USMC but, frankly, I don't think they're the right people for that job. KP is not Annapolis and none of us want it to be.
And yes, there have been plenty of CO's that were either graduates or had at least sailed at some point. They maintain a much lower presence though and only intervene when appropriate and conducive to the learning environment.
Last edited:
Well said.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2009
- Messages
- 353
Outstanding post 2009KPer. Thanks!
It has been said many times that these forums are monitored by all types of folks including the leadership at KP.
Hopefully, the Commandant of Midshipmen and the Academic Dean have this thread cross their desk/computer. Someone has to start caring, then acting, like this type of feedback matters. Acta non Verba.......PLEASE
wakefreek617
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 14
Many of us (the leadership) have pretty strong opinions on this subject, and hopefully (depending on the next Sup.) there will be some changes. One isssue is that the Academy has not been able to hire CO's (or anyone) for the last few years, so those slots were filled by the liasons- hopefully some of the new hired CO's will have a better balanced background.
kpbaseballmom
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2008
- Messages
- 149
Officers in the USMC
2009KPer
Thank you for your answer. But as the mother of a officer in the USMC, I have had some misconceptions that my officer DD has cleared up for me. Firstly, there is no doubt that the training in the Marine Corps has changed over the years. Some of the old timers at KP who are former Marine Corps officers have had vastly different experiences that those of the current officer group. For example, I asked my daughter if she yells at anyone. Definitely not was her reply. Yes, she does rely on the gunny to get things "done", but yelling unnecessarily is not tolerated. Some might complain that the Corps has been "feminized" to some extent, but I think there is still a great deal of discipline. Like being a Mariner, she is expected to get things accomplished without excuses. But this is the era of much different training for the officers as opposed to the old days, but one thing remains - you are responsible for your people and your behavior must be a positive example to those under you. Each Marine must be expected to take care of one another and to count on one another in any circumstance. Those are qualities that people at KP are also taught.
Perhaps someone needs to speak to those at KP not fulfilling the expectations of an officer as now understood by the USMC. My daughter was taught to act with the utmost honor, to be an example to the enlisted people and not to expect from anyone what she herself was not willing to do.
2009KPer
Thank you for your answer. But as the mother of a officer in the USMC, I have had some misconceptions that my officer DD has cleared up for me. Firstly, there is no doubt that the training in the Marine Corps has changed over the years. Some of the old timers at KP who are former Marine Corps officers have had vastly different experiences that those of the current officer group. For example, I asked my daughter if she yells at anyone. Definitely not was her reply. Yes, she does rely on the gunny to get things "done", but yelling unnecessarily is not tolerated. Some might complain that the Corps has been "feminized" to some extent, but I think there is still a great deal of discipline. Like being a Mariner, she is expected to get things accomplished without excuses. But this is the era of much different training for the officers as opposed to the old days, but one thing remains - you are responsible for your people and your behavior must be a positive example to those under you. Each Marine must be expected to take care of one another and to count on one another in any circumstance. Those are qualities that people at KP are also taught.
Perhaps someone needs to speak to those at KP not fulfilling the expectations of an officer as now understood by the USMC. My daughter was taught to act with the utmost honor, to be an example to the enlisted people and not to expect from anyone what she herself was not willing to do.
kp2001
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2006
- Messages
- 2,243
Convince the Navy to pay my salary while at KP and I'd be there. Work as a CO and add a couple clinics a week at the clinic...hmm, not sure I could beat that for a job description.
Sea Faring Moose Mom
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2010
- Messages
- 129
KP2001, Jasperdog
I so wish that i could make up the $$$ difference for you, jasperdog and others who live, breathe, and are passionate about the Academy and how its leadership operates. You would be the type of leaders that would be the most influencial on the next Midshipman.
I personally know of a female student who was 'singled out" 3/C and 2/C year to be made 'an example' to "conformed' and 'be controlled'. It was stated to the parent during 4/C year that he could see her in major leadership her 1/C year. It was obvious that the CO was disappointed in her. It was Capt. Fell who put a 'stop' to the nonsense after 4 weeks had gone by with much distress and disservice to the student and their studies...
Also, thank you 2009KPer!! opps! don't want to leave you out for explaining the roles of leadership and all of the information.
I so wish that i could make up the $$$ difference for you, jasperdog and others who live, breathe, and are passionate about the Academy and how its leadership operates. You would be the type of leaders that would be the most influencial on the next Midshipman.
I personally know of a female student who was 'singled out" 3/C and 2/C year to be made 'an example' to "conformed' and 'be controlled'. It was stated to the parent during 4/C year that he could see her in major leadership her 1/C year. It was obvious that the CO was disappointed in her. It was Capt. Fell who put a 'stop' to the nonsense after 4 weeks had gone by with much distress and disservice to the student and their studies...
Also, thank you 2009KPer!! opps! don't want to leave you out for explaining the roles of leadership and all of the information.
Last edited:
kp2001
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2006
- Messages
- 2,243
For me it's not the money, I'd get paid the same no matter where I was, and I'd gladly take a pay cut to make sure KP stayed on course. It would be convincing the Navy to fund the billet as an active duty slot and that it is a worthwhile job for a physician. Not sure they'd bite on that one given the shortage of primary care doc's in the military.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2009
- Messages
- 353
Given the history on a few of the folks we are talking about, perhaps, you could complete your "tenure" with U.S. Navy and come aboard KP as an Admiral with USMS!
Sea Faring Moose Mom
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2010
- Messages
- 129
KP2001 and Other KP Graduates
Where/Who do I start to Lobby for this to happen???? (Not kidding on this one!)
It would be great to have a program where former graduates, let's say after 5years out of the Academy, could return either as teachers or in leadership capacity. The experience of the Mariner and effective leadership would bring the Academy to fulfill it's Mission. With a 4-5 year comment to USMMA, the leadership could be completely turned around, a benefit to Mariners of the future.
I know that would be a great sacrifice not only to the Mariner, but also to their family. I would imagine there are KP graduates that would be willing.
As I have stated before, the most effective teachers and leadership my DD has had at the Academy have been the Mariner's that come and share their knowledge and experience.
Where/Who do I start to Lobby for this to happen???? (Not kidding on this one!)
It would be great to have a program where former graduates, let's say after 5years out of the Academy, could return either as teachers or in leadership capacity. The experience of the Mariner and effective leadership would bring the Academy to fulfill it's Mission. With a 4-5 year comment to USMMA, the leadership could be completely turned around, a benefit to Mariners of the future.
I know that would be a great sacrifice not only to the Mariner, but also to their family. I would imagine there are KP graduates that would be willing.
As I have stated before, the most effective teachers and leadership my DD has had at the Academy have been the Mariner's that come and share their knowledge and experience.