The weakening of Beast Barracks

In the process of applying, but it seems to me that forums like these, and the internet as a whole, has a huge impact on BEAST and life at USMA. Just from experiencing my girlfriend going through the process, I can testify that her mom went through the internet and found every kind of BEAST/USMA supply list or advice page that she could find. It seemed like every other day she was talking about how she found out about something else to bring, how to pack her bags, the kind of knife to bring etc.

It seems like one of the main points of BEAST is to make the switch from civilian to solider. Someone alluded to this earlier, but if you go into beast already knowing a lot about how things function, the apparent "relaxation" of certain rules, what to bring etc, doesn't that somewhat defeat the point? It seems like people are trying to find ways to cheat the system, whereas beast should be the main opportunity for cadets to get broken into the military lifestyle, not eased into it. A baptism by fire sort-of thing.
 
The Challenge of Leadership

to be fair, all that have posted that it is a leadership challenge for the cadre are correct. that is the commander's intent. Challenge us to find new ways. And that's what I'm tryingtodo. The intent was clearly to use more creative and/or inspirational means than simple PT to correct issues. I am trying. My original post was meant as a "whoa, it took me by surprise how weak and generally insubordinate these NCs are", NOT a "I can't use PT, this stinks. I hate USMA". Sorry if my writing was unclear.

Titan2010 I really appreciate your willingness to contribute to this forum given your demanding responsibilities. I think the challenges faced by today's cadre are more demanding than in days gone by when intimidation, hazing, near starvation, etc. were part of tool bag of many firsties (firsties ran beast in my day) but not all; several bright exceptions of true leaders stand out in my memory of Beast. Many of the New Cadets will not be ready for what they will face during CBT. It sounds like your example of the NC that had to go to the hospital after the mental breakdown is one of those. That has always been the case independent of the difficulty of CBT. Again, many of my contemporaries who are familiar with the Corps of 30 years ago and today are in agreement that the physical standards are higher just as the mental challenges (hazing) are lower. In the end, no matter the difficulty of the standards, some will make it and some won't. Not all the ones who make it are the best, and not all the ones who don't are the worst.

Overall, I think both you and your New Cadets will benefit from what you learn in how to motivate your charges with positive leadership. And guess what, women are part of the Army now and will be a more important part in the future (so "ignoring them" is probably not a positive nor effective way of dealing with reality) as probably all jobs in the Army are opened to them. So learn to deal with the differences between the successful ways to motivate men versus women. One way and one standard will not fit all no matter how much many Old Grads and others would like it to.
 
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Classof83,
I do not really have any major differences with your analysis. However, I think something is wrong when my son (Class of 2015) and his two roommates tell me that Beast Barracks and Plebe year - except for the academics - was much easier than they anticipated and that many Plebes and upperclassmen performed well below standards without any real consequences.
As I said in a earlier post, I think the vast majority of Cadets and graduates are the same level or better than in past years. However, I also can see that many Cadets who do not meet the standards are given second, third and fourth chances. I was surprised to learn that we now have summer school and mid-year graduations. I believe we should enforce the high standards that we announce and not hesitate to seperate those Cadets - men and women - who do not meet those standards.
 
Classof83,
I do not really have any major differences with your analysis. However, I think something is wrong when my son (Class of 2015) and his two roommates tell me that Beast Barracks and Plebe year - except for the academics - was much easier than they anticipated and that many Plebes and upperclassmen performed well below standards without any real consequences.
As I said in a earlier post, I think the vast majority of Cadets and graduates are the same level or better than in past years. However, I also can see that many Cadets who do not meet the standards are given second, third and fourth chances. I was surprised to learn that we now have summer school and mid-year graduations. I believe we should enforce the high standards that we announce and not hesitate to seperate those Cadets - men and women - who do not meet those standards.

When it comes to some cadets thinking Beast and Plebe year is easier then expected, if it might be more relative to that individual cadet.

Many moon's, and I mean many, when I was a young pup I had decided to join the Coast Guard. My family leased several houses to the CG so we had a lot of Chief and 1st Class PO's that became friends of the family. It was about 2 months before I headed off to basic, and by the way, the CG had back then and still has (Ask any Marine) the second hardest Basic Training in the military. All these Chiefs and PO's started telling me stories of what to expect, what it was like when they went. When the time came to go I thought I was about to enter the bowles of Hell, my legs were shaking so bad I could hardly get off the bus. Well, I made it through the 11 weeks always wondering when it was going to get harder, when would it be like what they had told me. Don't get me wrong, it was tough, we had 2 guys try to swim off the island, one tried to commit suicide, and a couple just broke down and couldn't continue. For me, I thought it was a cake walk compared to what I had been told.

The same was true when I was getting ready to go to OCS, I heard the same stories and bought into them hook, linen and sinker. Once again I felt it was no way as hard as they talked about.

Perhaps some of the current cadets arrive at WP with the same feeling, they've heard all the stories from their parent who went before them and find it was easier then they imagined or were told because they were prepared for the worst.

A friend of our family's son came back from his first year at WP this year. This kid has no family that ever served and had really know idea what to expect. His reaction to the first year, he said it was the hardest thing he had ever done in his life, wasn't sure he would make it past the first year but he did.

Sorry for the long story, just a thought on why some may find it easy while others find it extremely hard.
 
Classof83,
I do not really have any major differences with your analysis. However, I think something is wrong when my son (Class of 2015) and his two roommates tell me that Beast Barracks and Plebe year - except for the academics - was much easier than they anticipated and that many Plebes and upperclassmen performed well below standards without any real consequences.
As I said in a earlier post, I think the vast majority of Cadets and graduates are the same level or better than in past years. However, I also can see that many Cadets who do not meet the standards are given second, third and fourth chances. I was surprised to learn that we now have summer school and mid-year graduations. I believe we should enforce the high standards that we announce and not hesitate to seperate those Cadets - men and women - who do not meet those standards.

Summer Term Academic Program (STAP), has been around for quite some time. Many cadets that attend STAP are Division 1 athletes who carry a much larger time commitment than the Slugs who stay in their rooms and study. Many such as my DS were at STAP for 3 weeks following end of term. He was not there to make up a bad grade, but to help unload upcoming fall term classes. I think you are wrong on the many chances you are referring to...USMA has very short fuse with underperforming cadets. If a cadet is worth keeping they will find a way to help.
 
Standards

Jcleppe, I think you are correct - it depends upon the level of preparation. I prepared my 2015 cadet to be ready for what I went through and when it wasn't that bad, it became a good experience.

BigNick, I think I remember something like summer school in my day. My Beast roommate went through it a couple of times and was still a December graduate!

As far as standards are concerned, I think the level of tolerance is heading in the other direction given drawdowns, budget cuts, etc., and I agree with that. But let's not have the leash be too short - would a very short leash have led to the Grants, Custers, and even Eisenhowers having been cashiered? What about those legends of the cadet who slips off to Benny Havens' (an offense that could have led to dismissal)? I think second (maybe even third) chances have been around for quite some time.
 
Classof83,
I do not think your took my point as I meant it. I never said anything about a "leash too short" - those are your words. I believe in second and third chances if the Cadet has a good attitude and is near the standards and just needs a little more time or some help. My meaning was that there are Cadets who routinely do not meet the standards. All of the Cadets know who these people are. I am worried about a "long-long-long" lease.
 
Weakening of Standards

BigNick,

This is not directed at your response specifically.

I'd have to say that it is always a judgement call. If a cadet is not meeting the standards, questions need to be asked: Is it a maturity issue, an issue of inability, etc. The cadets need to be held to the highest standards but a good tactical officer (officer in charge of a cadet company at West Point) will look behind the curtain to see whether there is potential there or not. To broaden the perspective, let's even talk about a USNA grad., John McCain. In reading his book Faith of My Fathers he mentioned that he was constantly on the verge of being dismissed. That certainly would have been a shame for him and for us. It might have helped him that his grandfather had been an admiral in WWII and his father was one while he was at the Naval Academy (I think he was an admiral by the time McCain graduated).

To bring it back to the theme of the thread, namely the weakening of Beast standards, lack of preparation, mental lapses, etc., are to be expected of young men and women at this age who enter West Point. It is a process of mentoring and leadership that should be taken over the 4 years that has proven to build "leaders of character" over time. The admission process should try to find the best 1,000 or so (under the constraints of the political process, etc.) who have the potential to meet the standard of a West Point graduate. As the cadets progress, they should be held to higher and higher standards. If ultimately, the graduates prove themselves to be capable leaders on the battlefield and in the office (the new battlefield of drones and cyberwar where brains have an edge over brawn), then even with a changing of the standards, the system will have proven itself as it has for over 200 years.
 
Classof83

Nice to read a well thought out, well stated post on this subject!
 
The answer from the old professor: "Getting those to do what you want them to do even if they don't have to is real leadership!" Maybe it is all part of the plan, e.g. getting the Cadre to use inspirational leadership to inspire the New Cadets. A bit more challenging than yelling and punishing!


There is some truth to this. Before I came to West Point I worked at a comprehensive law enforcement academy and had the opportunity of leading approximately 25-30 people in my platoon within a class of approximately 150 kids. On the one hand, all of the instructors were somewhat experienced and knowledgeable in the field for which the academy existed. On the other hand, the students we were training were usually around our age (sometimes older) and were completely free to leave at any point (which meant they really didn't have to listen to us). My first class as an instructor, like most new instructors, I took the intense and harsh route of screaming and physically correcting recruits (new instructors were expected to be "kill-hats"). However, over time I cooled down (as all instructors did after a class or so).

While I am far from an expert on leading people, I learned a great deal from the six classes I spent there, one as a recruit and five as a staff instructor.

1. To this day no experience (and certainly not anything I've experienced at West Point) has been more impactful on me than the experience of having several instructors shouting at me at the top of their lungs while I was in the pushup position on my second day as a recruit for having forgotten my nametag. No experience has taught me discipline more than 3-hour long drill sessions going over one single motion like "to-the-rear" where the slightest mistakes were punished with intense physical correction. These kinds of experiences teach discipline and attention to detail. They shake you up enough to make you think about why you're really there and make it a true fight to get through to the end. It is because of that struggle that on the day we first got to wear our uniforms with patches and badges we were all filled with an intense sense of pride at the experience we had been through and at our accomplishment. This alone, however, is not what led to our success.


2. Toward the end of each class the recruits are made to do anonymous one-page evaluations of the entire staff (there were about 15 staff members for 150 recruits so all the staff members were well-known enough that the recruits would have had enough to write a meaningful evaluation). The evaluations were read by our supervisor (a sergeant with about 30 years of experience in law enforcement) and were used to judge our performance (among other things). The week before graduation the staff instructors received their evaluations. After my first class, the majority of recruits said, in some way or another, that they were scared of me. There was positive mixed in there too, but what stuck out was their fear. Their comments ranged from "I don't feel comfortable approaching him with a problem" to "All I wanted was for him to go away." That experience taught me that you cannot rely on intensity and physical correction alone to train someone. In subsequent classes, under the guidance of our leadership and those more experienced than me (as well as multiple ass-chewing sessions), I was able to refine my approach to being less about telling a recruit that they were messed up and "thrashing the hell out of them" (as we called it), but to being about: 1.) becoming the image that drew them to want to do what we did and 2.) reminding them that becoming that image was why they were there. Sure, I would still yell and scream when necessary, but the majority of the time my approach was to speak at a normal tone of voice. At the end of my fifth and final class I got my evaluations and what the recruits observed was similar across all of their evaluations. The recruits saw me as a quiet (as in I didn't yell and scream) yet professional example of what they wanted to be, and their desire to do and be right was not in fear of the physical correction I would administer, but in the fact that they felt like they were letting me and the department down if they performed below the standard. To this day I still have all of my 500 or so evaluations from the five classes.


To make a long story short, what you say is right: leadership is about getting others to do what you want them to do because they want to do it. And getting there requires many different factors.There has to be a balance. On the one hand, I got ripped a new one constantly, as a recruit and even more as a staff member. Along with that and just as, if not more, importantly we had to inspire our recruits. But there had to be both. We could not survive on counseling, paperwork, and inspiration alone. Sometimes you had to yell and make someone do pushups. Sometimes going out into the 90 degree heat and getting sweaty was the best answer. But there has to be a balance of both.That said, Beast should be the most terrifying part of West Point. It should encompass physical correction and it should encompass yelling. It shouldn't be like a wildfire raging in the wilderness but like a refining fire for the purpose of refining gold (I still believe that West Point takes in some of the best "un-refined gold" there is out there). It has to have a purpose, direction,counseling, and inspiration. Those, combined with leading by example, are all a part of making that purpose a reality to the New Cadets.


The point is that West Point and the Army stands for (or should anyways) something. There has to be a consistent image of what we are and who we will be. As an organization we have to stand for that image at all levels, from CSA to brand new E-1. This isn't the way things currently are, and thus the problem. People stand for themselves nowadays. People do what makes them happy and what keeps them comfortable. Individual responsibility is dead in the wake of political correctness and an overwhelming desire to appease those we disagree with. We talk a big talk on paper about what we should be and what we think we are, but very few live it. The Army is full of people who are in the Army because it's beneficial, it pays for college, it's a respected career, etc. That's all fine too. Such things are excellent starting points to get people to do the difficult when the difficult is increasingly growing in complexity and unattractiveness. But as new generations come in with high expectations only to be let down by those who came before them and those who lead them, we drive ourselves towards our own self-destruction. Higher ranking people yell at lower ranking people because lower ranking screw-ups make them look bad, not because they genuinely care about making them better. We are an Army of people looking to use the Army as a stepping stone, hoping that we don't die along the way, and expecting "someone else" to handle what we see as "someone else's" problems. I, too, am guilty of this. Meanwhile, upper leadership and elected officials pander to their own pockets and political reputations leading the Army and America to a life of apathetic depravity.


What it takes to make us great is for people to have a sense of individual responsibility and a sense of living for something. Whatever that something may be. For the Army, it has to be about genuinely loving our country, loving the land on which it is built, loving the Constitution that is its cornerstone and loving the stubborn, freedom-loving, tenacious and lazy-living people who make up its parts, misguided though they may be. We need to have pride in what it means to be Americans first, and an even greater pride in what it means to stand as the violent soldier-guardians of that American dream. When we can do that, then uniform standards aren't about sergeants correcting privates for the sake of pretending to be a military, but are about maintaining the image that we stand for the defense of freedom and heroism. When we have that, then being physically fit isn't about doing PT because it's traditional and being fit is good for you, but about being afraid that should the time come that we must violently engage our enemies we would be not fit enough to protect all that we love and all that for which we stand. All of that is predicated on living for and standing by principles. America has lost that, its leaders have lost that, its people have lost that, and not surprisingly so has its Army. To regain it requires, on all accounts, that we make an effort towards that ideal. It starts with the individual.


In late 2007 at the young age of 15 years old, I sat at the seated position of attention in a room with 200 other recruits while our supervisor recited the following:

"When I was young, I wanted to change the world. I found it was difficult to change the world, so I tried to change my nation. When I found I couldn’t change the nation, I began to focus on my city. I couldn’t change the city and so I tried to change my family. Now that I’m older, I realize the only thing I can change is myself, and suddenly I realize that if long ago I had changed myself, I could have made an impact on my family. My family and I could have made an impact on our city. Their impact could have changed the nation and I could indeed have changed the world. It only takes one person to change the world, start with yourself and the world will follow." He then began to describe the journey we were about to undertake, the image for which we would have to stand if we were going to stay in the organization, and how the image is propagated is not by seeking to make others fit the image, but by becoming the image ourselves. That first day began with that quote and was followed by four and a half months of intense, physical grueling, and mentally challenging activity that ultimately resulted in the person I am today. I see it as a defined turning point in my life (although I am by no means perfect--either then as a recruit, or now as a Cadet).


I realize that there are exceptions to all that I have said. I have met many great men and women within the Army who live for something and stand for noble ideals. Similarly, I have met men and women outside the Army who are the same way. I, too, live for something. However, a large group of individuals living for things does not a nation make. There has to be a sense of group identity and of shared group values.

[/soapbox]
 
Learn the facts before you speak

Yes, I'm sure the 3-mile march to Jack's Valley is just grueling. :rolleyes: My brother is a zoomie (Class of '10) and was disappointed at what he found to be a very weak BCT experience. Maybe they've raised their game a little on the physical front. That'd be good, since it'll be the last physical challenge most of them undertake in their USAF careers.

All academy rivalry aside, before you criticize other academies and your future professional colleagues and teammates upon whom you may have to trust your lives in the future, you might want to become better informed.

1. The elevation at USAFA (~7,250 feet) is a dominant characteristic. Visiting football teams come to Falcon Stadium with an extensive array of oxygen bottles strewn along their side of the field. Compare the visiting side of the field to the AFA side of the field to understand the degree of cardiovascular conditioning at USAFA. The simple act of climbing a few flights of stairs can become a memorable experience for a “Basic Cadet” coming to USAFA from a sea level location. Basic training at an elevation higher than the peaks of the European Alps has additional challenges not faced at either USMA or USNA.

2. I noted that when my son was applying for admission to USMA, his physical fitness test scores were ABOVE the mean in every category at USMA but, with one exception, the same scores simply MET the mean at USAFA for an entering class. The exception was above the mean. I was surprised. Based upon reputation, I would have expected the reverse - higher entering standards at USMA.

3. I think you underestimate the physical training and expectations in the USAF - especially today. I would like to see you make the same statement about physical challenges in the USAF to my officemate (USAF Major) that just returned from a tour in Afghanistan this week.

Regardless of the physical environment, the important point is that all that graduated from any of the service academies SERVED their country!

BTW, getting back to academy rivalry, my son (USMA) and I (USAFA) can agree on one point: Beat Navy!
 
Powell on Leadership

TheKnight: Nice Post.

On "The week before graduation the staff instructors received their evaluations. After my first class, the majority of recruits said, in some way or another, that they were scared of me. There was positive mixed in there too, but what stuck out was their fear. Their comments ranged from 'I don't feel comfortable approaching him with a problem' to 'All I wanted was for him to go away.' That experience taught me that you cannot rely on intensity and physical correction alone to train someone" I think your observation and Gen. Collin Powell's advice on this point is sound: "The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help them or concluded that you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership."

And as you also say, using intensity (in its various forms) to enforce correction has its limited place. But I think we've all been the brunt of intensity that brings more pleasure to the user than benefit to the object of that intensity.

Keep thinking about this topic and putting in practice what you learn with the intensity you demonstrate here and you'll find that both those you lead and you will be able to accomplish great things.
 
While training at altitude is certainly difficult, let's not exaggerate off the deep end here.

There are close to 100 peaks in the European Alps over 12,800 ft, over a mile higher than the elevation of USAFA. :wave:

Luigi59: Thank you! I stand corrected.

I was thinking about the areas of the Alps where people actually live and ski and not the top of the peaks themselves. My previous post was misleading and I should have chosen my words more carefully. As you correctly pointed out, the tallest mountain in the Alps is Mont Blanc. Even on Mont Blanc and nearby peaks, most organized ski runs start at about 2300m (7500ft) or lower and the base, where people actually live, is at the 580-1035m (1900-3400 ft) level depending upon the country (Italy vs. France).

My original point was simply that the elevation at which all training at USAFA is conducted is quite high. I used to enjoy an occasional business trip to a lower elevation where, as a side benefit, I could exercise my legs instead of my lungs when I went out to run during my free time. While assigned to the USAFA, my normal work day was spent at elevations/altitudes between 6,500 and 10,000 feet. Basic training cannot be planned on the assumption that all new “Basic Cadets” have acclimated before arrival. It takes time!

Luigi, I will make it a point to check my word selection more carefully in the future.
 
TheKnight: Nice Post.

On "The week before graduation the staff instructors received their evaluations. After my first class, the majority of recruits said, in some way or another, that they were scared of me. There was positive mixed in there too, but what stuck out was their fear. Their comments ranged from 'I don't feel comfortable approaching him with a problem' to 'All I wanted was for him to go away.' That experience taught me that you cannot rely on intensity and physical correction alone to train someone" I think your observation and Gen. Collin Powell's advice on this point is sound: "The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help them or concluded that you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership."

And as you also say, using intensity (in its various forms) to enforce correction has its limited place. But I think we've all been the brunt of intensity that brings more pleasure to the user than benefit to the object of that intensity.

Keep thinking about this topic and putting in practice what you learn with the intensity you demonstrate here and you'll find that both those you lead and you will be able to accomplish great things.

Fear of the misuse of that intensity causes the pendulum to swing all the way in the other direction limiting it entirely. Hopefully, with time, the pendulum will swing back to the middle.
 
All academy rivalry aside, before you criticize other academies and your future professional colleagues and teammates upon whom you may have to trust your lives in the future, you might want to become better informed.



1. The elevation at USAFA (~7,250 feet) is a dominant characteristic. Visiting football teams come to Falcon Stadium with an extensive array of oxygen bottles strewn along their side of the field. Compare the visiting side of the field to the AFA side of the field to understand the degree of cardiovascular conditioning at USAFA. The simple act of climbing a few flights of stairs can become a memorable experience for a “Basic Cadet” coming to USAFA from a sea level location. Basic training at an elevation higher than the peaks of the European Alps has additional challenges not faced at either USMA or USNA.

You might want to become better-informed on the European Alps. Also, you might consider looking closer to home for an altitude reference. Copper Mountain has a base altitude of 9700 feet and the highest run goes up to over 12,000.

And the Hudson Valley and Annapolis are quite bit more humid, and don't cool off at night the way the Springs does. But I'll grant you that altitude makes things twice as hard. Good thing USMA marches them 4 times farther. We can parse environment all day, but the question is what's asked of them, not where they're asked to do it.

2. I noted that when my son was applying for admission to USMA, his physical fitness test scores were ABOVE the mean in every category at USMA but, with one exception, the same scores simply MET the mean at USAFA for an entering class. The exception was above the mean. I was surprised. Based upon reputation, I would have expected the reverse - higher entering standards at USMA.

Anecdotal point, and I've seen neither sets of data you refer to, so I can't comment either way.

3. I think you underestimate the physical training and expectations in the USAF - especially today. I would like to see you make the same statement about physical challenges in the USAF to my officemate (USAF Major) that just returned from a tour in Afghanistan this week.

Oh, he's been deployed. That changes EVERYTHING. :rolleyes: Did he have a grueling trek to the coffee pot every morning? Did they throw extra weight on his SVoIP telephone handset?

Good for him. He went to Afghanistan. We're glad he came. But that doesn't change anything about the USAF's lack of physicality.
 
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Today is our cadet's 23rd birthday and I spoke with him earlier today since he's currently involved in training for CBT II as part of the cadre. I thought it appropriate to comment on this thread since this subject came up in our conversation. He said that he is just surprised that so much has changed since his CBT two years ago and among the things he mentioned was that they can no longer refer to themselves as the cadre, but use cadet leadership instead. He said they can't direct new cadets to do more than 10 pushups and no group push-up "discipline" and no yelling at the new cadets. He said that he was also surprised that the new cadets were allowed so much "liberty" at the fireworks/music at trophy point on 7/8/12 and was just recalling how their class was required to maintain the appropriate "new cadet demeanor" during that event. He did say that these kind of shifts do take place as West Point leadership changes, but he preferred the "old way" of doing things instead of the "kinder/gentler" CBT this year.
 
He said that he was also surprised that the new cadets were allowed so much "liberty" at the fireworks/music at trophy point on 7/8/12 and was just recalling how their class was required to maintain the appropriate "new cadet demeanor" during that event.

Agree. :thumbdown:
 
Well, neither the Supe or Comm has done much to bolster my faith in their leadership. This is just another example.

Way to go, generals. I'm sure you're proud of how "professional" Beast is now.

For those who don't know, "professionalism" is a term the Army's senior leaders use to make weakness, pandering, and careerism seem like they're for the greater good.
 
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