United States Naval Academy vs Brown BS/MD

[Herman_Snerd]

A couple of additional thoughts:
1. Can you afford Brown's 4 year liberal art component of the PLME without ROTC? Were you already offered a ROTC scholarship or would you be attending then competing for one as a college programmer? Can you afford it if ROTC doesn't work out? If finances aren't an issue, then your original note "communicates" I want to be a physician, I might want to be a navy officer, if and only if I can be a navy physician. You don't sound invested in being a navy officer, regardless. BTW, if you go ROTC, I believe your chances of heading to med school after commissioning are not better than via USNA adn you'd have the same service commitment.
2. So many other combined programs offer a 7 year path instead of 8 for a BS/ MD - Boston College, Drexel, etc. 8 year is a longer haul, but you do you. If you went to a 7 year path, maybe spending 5 years on a ship as an officer would be less painful to you?
3. MCAT mentioned more than once as something to avoid? I disagree. Quoting the sage Rocky Balboa, the MCAT "aint so bad", and ensures you have a foundation of knowledge your med school peers will have starting on day 1. DD just studied for 4 months while a full time student, took it last week. Why would you not utilize that prep process to ensure you're solid in all areas org. chem et al. that you'll need? I don't think this is a waste of your time nor do I think this is a reason to attend Brown for 4 years - Just food for thought for you.

Try to sit down and have a chat with yourself and loop back with "what do you want".

• To go to USNA and serve as an officer regardless of where the navy needs you, which includes maybe not going to med school and having to serve first? Sub, ship, pilot, marine.
• I get the sense it's not the money driving your decision somehow - but do you need to avoid debt like most do? if not, and you're pinned on the MD path, then.... well, maybe your decision is already made.
• I will say I feel for anyone at a SA who isn't all-in to start.

In your case. were you one of our children or niece or whatever, I'd ask this - have you considered attending USNA for a full 1 or 2 years, without cost, then transferring to a BS/MD or undergrad program and applying to an MD program from there if you're not on a path to thrive at USNA and be in position to be selected for med school from there? You still will be able to finish undergrad in 4 years likely (I bet you have a lot of AP credits, no? through you'll have to retake all science courses in undergrad for med school.

Good luck and congrats on having such terrific options. Your post has generated a lot of feedback - hope any of this helps on your journey.

 

[Ihavenoidea]

Others have mentioned that if the idea of doing non medical jobs in the military is a no go for USNA. I would make sure you are OK with the idea of several hundreds of thousands of dollars of dept after your BS/MD schooling is over is worth being a doctor to you. Even with ROTC and other scholarships. You will potentially be paying this dept for decades after school is over which will effect how you will live. Make sure this long term burden is worth the diploma from Brown.

 

[jebdad]

Brown is one of the more liberal Ivy campuses. Personally, I was disgusted a couple of years ago when students destroyed the American flag display that was set up on campus to recognize Veterans Day. IMO, the Administration's response was incredibly weak and they have only paid lip service to their support of the military. Their historic admissions stats for veterans was abysmal. They probably had more left-handed double oboe players on campus than veterans. Be prepared to be on an island.

This was my first thought when I read the original post. Brown and USNA are about as polar opposite as you can get. I'm a flag waving, midwestern values kinda guy. My child was recruited to play a sport at Brown and we visited and I could not wait to get away from there. It's a long ways from Kansas..... I prayed they would not be interested in him and thankfully so they weren't.

 

[Herman_Snerd]

Others have mentioned that if the idea of doing non medical jobs in the military is a no go for USNA. I would make sure you are OK with the idea of several hundreds of thousands of dollars of dept after your BS/MD schooling is over is worth being a doctor to you. Even with ROTC and other scholarships. You will potentially be paying this dept for decades after school is over which will effect how you will live. Make sure this long term burden is worth the diploma from Brown.

This is a good point - if the OP can clarify whether debt/ money are an issue (or if they have the proverbial money out the wazoo). then perhaps the options to recommend will be come clearer. If money is any issue, then why not try USNA for 1-2 years and walk away if that's not your thing, finish an undergrad elsewhere, and move forward.

4 years of Brown undergrad at the costs below (lower if receiving aid) don't seem to be justified over studying for the MCAT, unless money is no object.

 

[usna1985]

One option is to attend USNA serve in the military and then attend med school, either through a military program (e.g., USUHS) or just as a civilian. It is eminently doable if you're committed. Quite a few SA grads are lawyers, doctors, as well as members of other professions that require post-grad schooling. Some do it via the military; most don't (IOW, they get out after 5+ years and pursue other careers).

But, you have to be committed to the military first.

 

[auk]

A couple of additional thoughts:
1. Can you afford Brown's 4 year liberal art component of the PLME without ROTC? Were you already offered a ROTC scholarship or would you be attending then competing for one as a college programmer? Can you afford it if ROTC doesn't work out? If finances aren't an issue, then your original note "communicates" I want to be a physician, I might want to be a navy officer, if and only if I can be a navy physician. You don't sound invested in being a navy officer, regardless. BTW, if you go ROTC, I believe your chances of heading to med school after commissioning are not better than via USNA adn you'd have the same service commitment.
2. So many other combined programs offer a 7 year path instead of 8 for a BS/ MD - Boston College, Drexel, etc. 8 year is a longer haul, but you do you. If you went to a 7 year path, maybe spending 5 years on a ship as an officer would be less painful to you?
3. MCAT mentioned more than once as something to avoid? I disagree. Quoting the sage Rocky Balboa, the MCAT "aint so bad", and ensures you have a foundation of knowledge your med school peers will have starting on day 1. DD just studied for 4 months while a full time student, took it last week. Why would you not utilize that prep process to ensure you're solid in all areas org. chem et al. that you'll need? I don't think this is a waste of your time nor do I think this is a reason to attend Brown for 4 years - Just food for thought for you.

Try to sit down and have a chat with yourself and loop back with "what do you want".

• To go to USNA and serve as an officer regardless of where the navy needs you, which includes maybe not going to med school and having to serve first? Sub, ship, pilot, marine.
• I get the sense it's not the money driving your decision somehow - but do you need to avoid debt like most do? if not, and you're pinned on the MD path, then.... well, maybe your decision is already made.
• I will say I feel for anyone at a SA who isn't all-in to start.

In your case. were you one of our children or niece or whatever, I'd ask this - have you considered attending USNA for a full 1 or 2 years, without cost, then transferring to a BS/MD or undergrad program and applying to an MD program from there if you're not on a path to thrive at USNA and be in position to be selected for med school from there? You still will be able to finish undergrad in 4 years likely (I bet you have a lot of AP credits, no? through you'll have to retake all science courses in undergrad for med school.

Good luck and congrats on having such terrific options. Your post has generated a lot of feedback - hope any of this helps on your journey.

I am not currently offered an ROTC scholarship and would be applying and competing for one once in college. If ROTC doesn't work out, I will be taking student loans.

I hear that ROTC's purpose is to graduate officers, like USNA. ROTC cadets have to be approved for an educational gap, however, I am currently talking to the ROTC recruiters working with Brown to see if it would be different for me as I have a guaranteed spot in the Brown medical school. My options are doing ROTC then HPSP or just HPSP and paying for undergraduate out of pocket.

Thank you for the response and things to think about! I really appreciate the feedback from everyone here, it's a big help to get some outside opinions.

 

[auk]

Agree -- Unless you WANT (not just willing) to serve in whatever capacity USN/USMC deems appropriate, go to Brown. The Naval Academy primary purpose is developing Line Officers. Even if you are gifted, selection to the Navy Medical program is a long shot. As I tell my Candidates, don't attend if you are looking for the "free" tuition ... nothing is free.

My father said I'm either paying with my time and future or my wallet... nothing is free!

 

[auk]

This was my first thought when I read the original post. Brown and USNA are about as polar opposite as you can get. I'm a flag waving, midwestern values kinda guy. My child was recruited to play a sport at Brown and we visited and I could not wait to get away from there. It's a long ways from Kansas..... I prayed they would not be interested in him and thankfully so they weren't.

Drastically different choices. This difference adds more pressure to my choice as my life will be very different depending on what I choose. It's a little crazy that of all the places I applied, these are the two I'm choosing between.

 

[auk]

This is a good point - if the OP can clarify whether debt/ money are an issue (or if they have the proverbial money out the wazoo). then perhaps the options to recommend will be come clearer. If money is any issue, then why not try USNA for 1-2 years and walk away if that's not your thing, finish an undergrad elsewhere, and move forward.

4 years of Brown undergrad at the costs below (lower if receiving aid) don't seem to be justified over studying for the MCAT, unless money is no object.
View attachment 16005

The appeal of the BS/MD program is not just not taking the MCAT, it's a guaranteed admission to the Brown medical school.

If I go to Brown and I don't get a military scholarship, I will be taking student loans to finance my undergraduate and medical school education. The military scholarship is not a guarantee.

Overall, it would be $700k+ for 8 years. It's a big price tag.

I may be getting a $30k scholarship each year for Brown, taking off $120k, but we are working through that process and it's not for sure yet.

 

[Ihavenoidea]

My father said I'm either paying with my time and future or my wallet... nothing is free!

This is a very true and wise statement. Nothing is free. Just make sure the cost is worth what you will receive. Is the juice worth the squeeze. In your case, its military service that has a good chance of taking you away from your chosen path of being a doctor, or atleast delaying it several years...potentially. The other is going the path you dream of, but likely incurring alot of financial debt. Not a fun choice.....pros and cons to both. I do commend you for really diving in to the pros and cons of this decision. If you keep that up and focus on the short and long term opportunities, a clear decision will reveal its self to you. You just have to work to look past the "shiny" and "fun" aspects of each choice and really look at what you want in 10 years and which choice will get you there the best.

 

[acadamee]

From a current plebe here:
First off CONGRATS!! I don't think the people on this thread understand how insane and amazing it is to get accepted into Brown PLME. The Naval academy is great and all but that is an opportunity of a lifetime. You seem to have already started to plan how you are going to paying for it and you can always get into service later.

 

[NavyGirl06]

Hello, I am a current high school senior choosing between the United States Naval Academy and Brown PLME (8 year BS/MD program). The Academy and medicine are both dreams for me and I know they might not be compatable.

Brown PLME

Pros	Cons
guaranteed admission into Warren-Alpert medical school no need to take MCAT no need to apply to medical schools open-curriculum	no financial aid 80k+ per year for undergraduate 90k+ per year for medical school 700k+ total

United States Naval Academy

Pros	Cons
guaranteed job as Naval officer upon graduation military community and connections attend med school for no tuition (Uniformed Services University) or educational costs scholarship (any medical school) free get paid around 1k monthly leadership, discipline, and physical development	less likely chance of going into medicine must apply for Navy med corp billet (<20 students per year) will have to take MCAT will have to apply to medical schools

Everything about the Naval Academy, from lifestyle to military opportunities, appeals to me more except for the non-guarantee in medicine.

If I go to Brown, I will likely do ROTC or the Health Professions Scholarship Program, so I will ultimately end up in the military.

I know this is a decision that will ultimately be up to me. I know asking this forum is asking a very biased sample but I would like to get outside opinions on these two programs to help me make a better educated decision.

Does anyone have any thoughts on these two programs in general and when it comes to medicine? Does anyone have experience with either of the programs? Thank you!

I was the same, wanted med corps, debating between civilian school or USNA. you and I had the same thought process. I ended up getting rejected from USNA, but even if I had gotten in I would have had to heavily decide between guaranteed medicine or the lifestyle and culture of USNA. I eventually figured out that my biggest desire was to serve, so I ended up choosing army ROTC and pre-medicine at my civilian school. Of course that came with a USNA turndown, but I still feel it is the better fit for me. It all depends on what your big picture is.

 

[nmabq]

Wife is a Brown alum and I've spent a fair amount of time on campus with her. A few thoughts for you....

My recollection is that the Brown NROTC unit is at Holy Cross in Worcester, MA. Not exactly close to Providence, so think about the logistics associated with that for four years.

Brown is one of the more liberal Ivy campuses. Personally, I was disgusted a couple of years ago when students destroyed the American flag display that was set up on campus to recognize Veterans Day. IMO, the Administration's response was incredibly weak and they have only paid lip service to their support of the military. Their historic admissions stats for veterans was abysmal. They probably had more left-handed double oboe players on campus than veterans. Be prepared to be on an island.

I’m very left leaning - at least in this community, non military family, kid at USNA, many close friends went to Brown. And this is a very accurate description. I’ve spent a fair amount of time on the campus (late 80s/early 90s) It would be hard to turn down the offer they’ve given you, but I can’t imagine how difficult ROTC would be there. At least it’s not Bennington or Oberlin lol!

 

[IronmanDaremo]

If you have nothing useful to say just shut your mouth. This is a very unique situation and a perfectly valid post.

Well, it actually isn't (med school versus the Academy), so @severn was making a valid suggestion. There actually have been multiple threads, even within the past year, discussing the merits of trying to go to the Academy to become an MD versus the civilian route. There are usually a couple a year it seems.

And many would argue that most people don't know how insane and amazing it is to get into a service academy. Just sayin'.

 

[Devil Doc]

Well, it actually isn't (med school versus the Academy), so @severn was making a valid suggestion. There actually have been multiple threads, even within the past year, discussing the merits of trying to go to the Academy to become an MD versus the civilian route. There are usually a couple a year it seems.

And many would argue that most people don't know how insane and amazing it is to get into a service academy. Just sayin'.

Probably two per quarter but that is based on a survey of one.

 

[Devil Doc]

I was the same, wanted med corps, debating between civilian school or USNA. you and I had the same thought process. I ended up getting rejected from USNA, but even if I had gotten in I would have had to heavily decide between guaranteed medicine or the lifestyle and culture of USNA. I eventually figured out that my biggest desire was to serve, so I ended up choosing army ROTC and pre-medicine at my civilian school. Of course that came with a USNA turndown, but I still feel it is the better fit for me. It all depends on what your big picture is.

I think you will land in a spot best suited for you and will turn out just fine.

 

[Old Enlisted Marine]

I am the furthest thing from a doctor so take this with a grain of salt. 700k in debt ....... Is the juice worth the squeeze????

Full disclosure I am debt averse.

 

[Dr. Strange Love]

…
Overall, it would be $700k+ for 8 years. It's a big price tag.
…

.
Isn’t Health Services “Inflation” stuck at around 10% per year … and you have the 7yr/10% “Doubling” factor:

So when you are done … it could be more like $1.4M debt …

Be conservative … +$1.5M debt

And since it looks like we are headed into a “Stagflationary” economic grinder … expect much higher debt service costs and tighter pocket books when you do start to bill patients

You might want to start looking at becoming a Bond Dealer/Invester instead?
.

 

[acadamee]

Well, it actually isn't (med school versus the Academy), so @severn was making a valid suggestion. There actually have been multiple threads, even within the past year, discussing the merits of trying to go to the Academy to become an MD versus the civilian route. There are usually a couple a year it seems.

And many would argue that most people don't know how insane and amazing it is to get into a service academy. Just sayin'.

This isn’t just your normal BS/MD program. Brown PLME is the no.1 program in the nation so it’s a unique situation. Even so @severn is being just being demeaning and condescending for no good reason.

Getting into a service academy is not even in the same league as getting into Brown PLME. This is coming from someone who got into the navy, army and air force. Just sayin’.

 

[Capt MJ]

Apples and oranges.

Brown PLME is indeed a prestigious and difficult program to get into, and it is a massive achievement to do so. Successful applicants deserve recognition for that. There are no requirements for nominations, medical qualifications, passing a physical fitness test, completing a federal security questionnaire or demonstrating a history of leadership - I would expect there are successful applicants for the Brown program who would not be able to get into a service academy due to other requirements. I expect there are successful service academy applicants who would not get into the Brown program. And that’s fine. The goals of the Brown program and the goals of a service academy are different.

I took @severn post at face value, recommending researching the annual round of past thread discussions on medical school programs and options for the services and service academies. There is a lot of good background, context and examples to soak up, findable via the Search function. I did not read any negative tone. Without benefit of eye contact, vocal tone, facial expression and body language, anonymous internet chat threads can be very flat, and can be interpreted tone-wise in many ways by a reader.

@auk has been extremely courteous in responding to posts, expressing appreciation for the input, whatever he or she may privately think about it. They have an array of excellent options, and I hope they are able to think through them and find the best fit to carry them to their long-term goal.