United States Naval Academy vs Brown BS/MD

[Ihavenoidea]

If you have nothing useful to say just shut your mouth. This is a very unique situation and a perfectly valid post.

Even so @severn is being just being demeaning and condescending for no good reason.

How is answering someone who is questioning about Medical school directly after a SA by saying that this question has been asked and answered many times and try searching "demeaning and condescending"? Yes the OP has a great opportunity at Brown, but part of his original post was asking about the possibility of medical school after USNA. Which has been asked and answered many times every year.

Your also being demeaning and condescending towards someone who you feel is being demeaning and condescending??? Pot....meet Kettle.

 

[IronmanDaremo]

One can easily make the case that all he did was make a suggestion about how to look for information on the forum. Intent based upon two or three sentences is in the eye of the beholder/reader. As shown, he was not the one that told someone to shut their mouth.

I appreciate that it is a tough program to get accepted into. That does not make someone a good doctor. Joe Physician who graduated from University of Their State and becomes a doctor is still a doctor. It does mean they get a leg up getting into a good job afterward (the "prestigious" program graduate). Just like going through an Academy, ROTC, or OCS allows someone to become an officer. They are all butter bars when they commission.

It is one's action afterward that makes a different on their career (unless they come from an extremely affluent group who has influence over where someone gets to go in the world in the private sector).

As for getting into one thing over another not being in the same league? That is entirely opinion and a matter of what perspective from which you are coming at things. It really is that simple. For you, it appears that the program is the end-all-be-all. Up until this thread, I'd never even heard of it, because that world is not relevant to anything I care about.

If this is such a great opportunity and "unique," then the OP would have been better served just to make their decision with influence and advice from those close to them, not some anonymous forum that is highly weighted on the military side.

The OP should feel proud and lucky to be able to choose their path with such great options. If their dream is to become a doctor from a prestigious school, Brown will be great for that. If they want to serve their country in whatever way possible and understand that some of their dreams may be put on hold, or be taking a more curvy path, a service academy may just be that path.

I'm not going to make any assumptions here, but if your response is coming from a place of life experience and wisdom of age, it is a bit disappointing. If it is because you are still young and lack real-world experience in life? Well, you get a bit of a pass for coming across with what can be called an unfavorable attitude (I'm being nice, my original phrase was a lot stronger).

 

[Dr. Strange Love]

…
Getting into a service academy is not even in the same league as getting into Brown PLME.

.
Correct … different leagues and mostly a “Negative Correlation” …. So why do any comparison in the first place?

Most of this discussion is a waste of keystrokes …

This thread comes down to Sentiment …

1. Wants Medical School more than Line Officer and can handle Debt Burden … decision Brown

2. Wants Line Officer more than Medical School … decision Academy

That’s it … heated discussion over … done
.

 

[newtonsapple]

Brown students start encampment on campus to protest violence in Gaza

As nationwide protest against the violence in Gaza continue to spread on college campuses, students at Brown University have created a similar encampment.

turnto10.com

No such BS at USNA.

 

[OldRetSWO]

In addition to having a child graduate from USNA, I also have one who went to a traditional small New England school and after a couple of years of work experience, went to Medical School which she is now approaching the end of. We've met many of her fellow students and some of the staff at her DO program on the West Coast. Actually, her advisor was an Enlisted Marine to NAPS to USNA guy who then served as a Marine Officer and then, after his obligated service, went to a DO school and became a surgeon. Looking at this from the standpoint of my stepdaughter, the costs for her program her steep and the payback is not certain due to many changes in the US Healthcare system, both already happening and potential. The high costs don't end after the medical degree as the multiple years of residency will barely pay you to live much less start paying back the big loans that you're considering. Remember also that everyone here is being (very) success oriented. What if something happens in your final year of med school and you're faced with over 600K in loans and NOT a doctor's income.

I'm a BGO and while I do recruit and advocate for the Service Academies, based on what I'm reading, I'm not sure that that is the right path for you but a bet on $700K in loans is not one that I'd recommend for anyone.

PS: I am absolutely not being political here but as a former Intelligence Manager in private industry, I take a fairly dispassionate view of assembling facts to generate data and eventually knowledge. Politics aside, it is a FACT that there are a significant number of people in the country that want our medical system to evolve to a European Model. I don't think that anyone would deny that fact. As that is a possibility, take a look at Physician salaries in the UK, Canada or some other nations who some want us to emulate. Now think about if we gradually evolved to that while you were in training and a year or two or three saw our physician compensation starting to look like those countries. Personally, I'd be very leery of having them on the books as the salaries are adjusting to a new reality.

That is not to say don't do it, I and we need the doctor pipeline to remain open and maybe even widen a bit but consider your costs. I recognize the allure of the big name ivy league school but I've been cared for by MDs and DOs from a wide range of schools and I've not found the specific school they attended to correlate with their skills. I do recognize that the residencies can and do have some effect on that but those don't naturally follow on with the undergrad and med schools.
.
Personally, I'd rather my kid go to a 2nd or 3rd tier med school on scholarships/grants/etc than the Ivy for $700K

 

[Herman_Snerd]

Limited time today so I'm not going to engage on what appears to be an ad homimen attack on severn's relatively benign and I take to be well intended comment.

The OP I think said he has no ROTC scholarship, and no wealthy family floating the bill.

No argument this is a prestigious program - both are. I'll have to confirm Brown is #1
But, that debt at Brown, especially if it compounds interest while you study for 8 years? Just staggering.

OP, please consider the path of going to USNA for 2 years for free and getting a good sense of how you are performing/ how you like it. If you're not feeling positioned to be among the few selected to go to Med school then you could transfer to a 4 year college (Brown,even) and then go to med school for much less debt. You can walk away after 1 year too on this path. Use the transfer portal at brown, elsewhere to see what from UNA would transfer (including your APs etc.)

Please try to avoid that massive of a debt. My daughter's buddy did the BSMD program at Boston University. 7 years - way over 500k in debt growing with interest to more than 750 by the time she finishes med school. THat debt is bananas. Seek to avoid it. Please just consider the USNA option. A talented student like you will rock the MCATS and stand out among the high competition for med school. Good luck - and switch to decaf folks if Severn's comment causes this much angst.

 

[Dr. Strange Love]

In addition to having a child graduate from USNA, I also have one who went to a traditional small New England school and after a couple of years of work experience, went to Medical School which she is now approaching the end of. We've met many of her fellow students and some of the staff at her DO program on the West Coast. Actually, her advisor was an Enlisted Marine to NAPS to USNA guy who then served as a Marine Officer and then, after his obligated service, went to a DO school and became a surgeon. Looking at this from the standpoint of my stepdaughter, the costs for her program her steep and the payback is not certain due to many changes in the US Healthcare system, both already happening and potential. The high costs don't end after the medical degree as the multiple years of residency will barely pay you to live much less start paying back the big loans that you're considering. Remember also that everyone here is being (very) success oriented. What if something happens in your final year of med school and you're faced with over 600K in loans and NOT a doctor's income.

I'm a BGO and while I do recruit and advocate for the Service Academies, based on what I'm reading, I'm not sure that that is the right path for you but a bet on $700K in loans is not one that I'd recommend for anyone.

PS: I am absolutely not being political here but as a former Intelligence Manager in private industry, I take a fairly dispassionate view of assembling facts to generate data and eventually knowledge. Politics aside, it is a FACT that there are a significant number of people in the country that want our medical system to evolve to a European Model. I don't think that anyone would deny that fact. As that is a possibility, take a look at Physician salaries in the UK, Canada or some other nations who some want us to emulate. Now think about if we gradually evolved to that while you were in training and a year or two or three saw our physician compensation starting to look like those countries. Personally, I'd be very leery of having them on the books as the salaries are adjusting to a new reality.

That is not to say don't do it, I and we need the doctor pipeline to remain open and maybe even widen a bit but consider your costs. I recognize the allure of the big name ivy league school but I've been cared for by MDs and DOs from a wide range of schools and I've not found the specific school they attended to correlate with their skills. I do recognize that the residencies can and do have some effect on that but those don't naturally follow on with the undergrad and med schools.
.
Personally, I'd rather my kid go to a 2nd or 3rd tier med school on scholarships/grants/etc than the Ivy for $700K

.
^^^ Great Great Great post …

In today’s setup, you go the MD/DO route “ONLY if you Care about your Patients” … because the “Risk Premium” of becoming an MD/DO today is “NIL” … it’s probably Negative … you are forever in debt by becoming a Doctor today …

We have a shortage of doctors now …. And it will get a lot worse before it gets better.
.

 

[bethf]

I may be able to provide some small insight. My husband was completing his application to USNA (many years ago) and received acceptance to a combined BA/MD program similar to Brown. Same guarantee of no MCAT, guaranteed acceptance to the MD portion, as long as you tow the line for the first years. The difference is it didn't have the same price tag as Brown. After researching, he really got cold feet and his concern was not being able to choose his specialty or residency location. He pulled his USNA application and went to the civilian college. After graduation, he chose to do a 5 year double residency - emergency medicine and internal medicine. Something he likely would not have been able to do in the military. However, in his last year of residency, the US Navy was overjoyed to accept him and put him through OCS. He fulfilled his goal of becoming a Naval officer, and being a physician in the specialty he wanted. He was basically told, we'll send you anywhere you want (they REALLY loved the 2 board certifications) I know that the price here may be a deterrent, but it is near impossible to get into medical school nowadays. I know because I have a daughter who is in her second year of med school right now. It's not for the faint of heart. Many kids take a year off after college just to get all the shadowing and work experience in, and to study. Not having to take the MCAT is a major factor, for those who have not taken it. There are many paths to your goal. I like your pros and cons list. Follow your heart and congrats to you for being accepted into 2 amazing institutions!! Feel free to PM me if you'd like to chat with my hubs.

 

[bethf]

I have been unable to find anyone that chose between a service academy and a BS/MD program. I'm sure they're out there, just haven't been able to track them down.

I just posted a response.

 

[smokey%]

I may be able to provide some small insight. My husband was completing his application to USNA (many years ago) and received acceptance to a combined BA/MD program similar to Brown. Same guarantee of no MCAT, guaranteed acceptance to the MD portion, as long as you tow the line for the first years. The difference is it didn't have the same price tag as Brown. After researching, he really got cold feet and his concern was not being able to choose his specialty or residency location. He pulled his USNA application and went to the civilian college. After graduation, he chose to do a 5 year double residency - emergency medicine and internal medicine. Something he likely would not have been able to do in the military. However, in his last year of residency, the US Navy was overjoyed to accept him and put him through OCS. He fulfilled his goal of becoming a Naval officer, and being a physician in the specialty he wanted. He was basically told, we'll send you anywhere you want (they REALLY loved the 2 board certifications) I know that the price here may be a deterrent, but it is near impossible to get into medical school nowadays. I know because I have a daughter who is in her second year of med school right now. It's not for the faint of heart. Many kids take a year off after college just to get all the shadowing and work experience in, and to study. Not having to take the MCAT is a major factor, for those who have not taken it. There are many paths to your goal. I like your pros and cons list. Follow your heart and congrats to you for being accepted into 2 amazing institutions!! Feel free to PM me if you'd like to chat with my hubs.

I see your son is going to USMA, is there some inner family service rivalry going on???

 

[bethf]

I see your son is going to USMA, is there some inner family service rivalry going on???

Hahhaaa, I wondered if anyone would notice. We are definitely a Navy family. My husband, father, grandfather, and currently my son in law. However, my husband was ecstatic to change the "Don't Give Up The Ship" flag that always flies at our door to a West Point flag when DS got the BFE. We want for our kids what THEY want. USMA is my son's dream, he's played Army guy for his entire life. They're all brothers /sisters in the end!

 

[NomSeeker]

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Brown … and to save some cash, you can live out of your Van down by the Providence River … win win
.

And the corn pizza at Al Forno is better than anything you can get in the Annapolis area..

 

[Capt MJ]

@auk
Tuck into your notes on taking school loans, to thoroughly research all fine print and terms, interest rates, when repayment starts, default rates, etc. And - whether there is a deferment for active military service and no penalty for early pay-off. Strategic use of deferments could help you manage a staggering debt load.

Do your research on what goes into a credit score. A debt-to-income ratio is a major factor in you being able to get car loans, mortgages, credit cards, etc., either at all or at the most favorable rates.

 

[Full Steam]

In either situation, you're going to have obligations that restrict your future choices.

Student debt will restrict your ability to choose medical specialties or locations that don't pay a lot of money.
My back of the envelope estimates using the FSA Loan Simulator suggest you'd have a monthly loan payment of around $9,500. That's per month, based on the $700,000 debt.

USNA would restrict your ability to choose which specialty within the Navy you'd do after graduation. There are 5-12 students selected for med school each year. That's about 1% of the class. You are probably a top student (based on choosing between USNA and Brown), but your classmates would include other top students.

USNA has a service assignment senior year. Note that the Navy assigns (tells) you what you'll be doing. You express preferences, but the ultimate decision is the Navy's.

So you might end up doing 5+ years in the Navy in a non-medical role. Like on a ship or submarine.

At the end of that, you could apply to medical school. You'd be around 27 instead of 22, but you'd also have no student debt starting med school and if you stayed even a little bit past your service obligation, you'd potentially have Post 9/11 GI Bill to help pay for medical school. (The percentage of Post 9/11 GI Bill benefit is tiered based on how long you serve. Your GI Bill clock doesn't start until your service obligation is completed.)
So you might finish med school at 30, owing a less money and with several years of real world experience. That experience might make your residency easier, because you would be a little more mature (hopefully) and have experience with stress, hard days, and working in high performing teams (almost certainly).

This isn't to say that your right answer is USNA. It might not be. But your decision isn't completely binary (Navy vs Medical School) because there are multiple paths to medical school and some of them could follow military service.
I attended USNA in an era when there were even fewer people allowed to immediately go to med school. I think we had around four in the class. But there are 3-4 times that number who went on to health professions after their military service. Some had the military pay for medical school. Others didn't. Some served as military doctors. Others didn't.

When you're in high school, 10 years is a huge fraction of your life. But looking back as a more seasoned adult, decades fly past.

Best wishes on making your choice and your endeavors wherever you end up.

 

[flieger83]

Folks, the VAST majority here are having a great, informative conversation. That's what we love.

I put a member in "time out" tonight. He made a wholly unacceptable comment. I informed him why I was doing this.

After some reflection, he'll be free to return. We all make mistakes, but when they cross our SAF boundaries...

Have a great weekend!

Steve

 

[Capt MJ]

Folks, the VAST majority here are having a great, informative conversation. That's what we love.

I put a member in "time out" tonight. He made a wholly unacceptable comment. I informed him why I was doing this.

After some reflection, he'll be free to return. We all make mistakes, but when they cross our SAF boundaries...

Have a great weekend!

Steve

Thank you, @flieger83 for maintaining a civil tone here, contributing to a community which can voice differing opinions without devolving into personalized comments that are negative.

 

[Devil Doc]

Folks, the VAST majority here are having a great, informative conversation. That's what we love.

I put a member in "time out" tonight. He made a wholly unacceptable comment. I informed him why I was doing this.

After some reflection, he'll be free to return. We all make mistakes, but when they cross our SAF boundaries...

Have a great weekend!

Steve

For the record and the benefit of mankind, I must report it is not I who was placed in timeout.

 

[Ivy22]

I would do the Brown program for sure in this situation since it sounds like medicine is your primary goal.

I wouldn’t worry about perceived “campus politics” at the Ivies when making your decision. Plenty of Ivy League students choose to not get involved in others’ political events or protests. The news makes a big deal about those sort of events, but on campus, it’s very very easy to just avoid them

 

[auk]

I was the same, wanted med corps, debating between civilian school or USNA. you and I had the same thought process. I ended up getting rejected from USNA, but even if I had gotten in I would have had to heavily decide between guaranteed medicine or the lifestyle and culture of USNA. I eventually figured out that my biggest desire was to serve, so I ended up choosing army ROTC and pre-medicine at my civilian school. Of course that came with a USNA turndown, but I still feel it is the better fit for me. It all depends on what your big picture is.

Sounds like we are/were in similar shoes!

I want to ask about ROTC and medicine- were you also a BS/MD program? To my understanding, you have to apply for an educational gap to do medical school with ROTC. Medicine is not guaranteed when you do ROTC because they may have you serve first/not approve your educational gap. Can you confirm or shed light on this?

Sorry for the random ROTC questions in the USNA thread, they popped up when I saw your response. Thanks!

 

[auk]

Well, it actually isn't (med school versus the Academy), so @severn was making a valid suggestion. There actually have been multiple threads, even within the past year, discussing the merits of trying to go to the Academy to become an MD versus the civilian route. There are usually a couple a year it seems.

And many would argue that most people don't know how insane and amazing it is to get into a service academy. Just sayin'.

This isn’t just your normal BS/MD program. Brown PLME is the no.1 program in the nation so it’s a unique situation. Even so @severn is being just being demeaning and condescending for no good reason.

Getting into a service academy is not even in the same league as getting into Brown PLME. This is coming from someone who got into the navy, army and air force. Just sayin’.

Like Capt MJ said, apples and oranges. I know both programs have different requirements and are looking for different things because they have different end goals. Their stark differences are what's making this a thinker for me.

I'm not looking at the prestige or acceptance rate of a program right now. I'm focusing on the end goal and what each program will offer me now, 5, 10 years down the line.

Thanks for the responses!