Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

Discussion in 'Air Force Academy - USAFA' started by F15DOC, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. F15DOC

    F15DOC Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    283
    RogersCO'19 likes this.
  2. skismuggs

    skismuggs Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    137
    USAFA83GradWife and AFrpaso like this.
  3. AFrpaso

    AFrpaso USAFA '17

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2012
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    169
    I am not discounting the accomplishments of 2019 but many of my cadre friends commented on the lower physical standards imposed during BCT, particularly due to the enforcement of the PT card.

    I have a feeling that they compensated with a psychologically tougher environment which, in my opinion, would certainly explain the attrition numbers.
     
  4. USAFA83GradWife

    USAFA83GradWife Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes Received:
    564
    I agree with AFrpaso. I think the mental aspect may have been stepped up this year. Another thing to take into consideration, class of 2019 started with a larger number of basics than in previous years. I would think there's less urgency to talk someone into staying if you've got more than you need to start with -- that's just a gut feeling and only an opinion. I have nothing to substantiate this.
     
    RogersCO'19 and skismuggs like this.
  5. USAFA83GradWife

    USAFA83GradWife Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes Received:
    564
    We'll get the real number when the newsletter comes out for August.
    http://www.usafa.edu/superintendent/cma/newsletters.cfm

    BTW - the newsletters for June 2015 and July 2015 are swapped.

    class size for c/o 2019 as of 30 June-- 1238
     
    RogersCO'19 likes this.
  6. MombaBomba

    MombaBomba Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2014
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    218
    I agree with AFrpaso and USAFA83GradWife. I think mental "beatings" can be far worse than "physical" ones. A physical "beating" is experienced later on in aches and pains which can be addressed/lessened by medication and time. Mental "beatings" can follow you into your dreams, haunt your days and undermine your sense of self. Mental "beatings" can only be addressed/overcome by confronting them within yourself and realizing/remembering your own self value/worth. Physical obstacles are about doing and mental obstacles are about being. I can vs. I am.
     
    deltasquad_21 likes this.
  7. afmom2

    afmom2 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    7
    just curious... source? i thought they had less physical demands on them because of the PT card that was mandated for this year.[/QUOTE]

    There are many ways around the rules of the PT card. Not all cadre, but many feel the PT card was making training too easy, and they know ways around the rules. They get creative adding reps, carrying additional weight, new trainings that are not in the book (hence guidelines have not yet been created), etc. Not to mention unwarranted verbal attacks and humiliation.
    2016 being one of the smallest classes, seemed fit to reduce as many basics during bct as possible. There is a problem that leadership and standards are not consistent throughout the wing. The cadre of each flight have their own standards, many good and unfortunately some are bad. There has to be better training for the cadre and there has to be real supervision by Officers throughout. There are AOCs assigned to the squadrons during bct, but not all of them are "on the job". Those cadre will be commissioned soon enough as officers and some of them do not deserve to be. My 2 cents.
     
  8. F15DOC

    F15DOC Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    283
    Source comes from a USAFA Parent Group....
     
  9. USAFA83GradWife

    USAFA83GradWife Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes Received:
    564
    Yes, I agree that there are things that can be done within the PT card to make it difficult. I still think 2018 had the toughest BCT, mentally and physically, but I wasn't there, so ... what do I know? o_O I'll leave that determination to the cadets currently at USAFA.

    Also, keep in mind that the class of 2016 started with a significantly smaller class size. They had 993 in June of 2012. They aren't small because of their BCT (didn't want people to read more into their class size than they should.)
    http://www.usafa.edu/superintendent/cma/newsletters/2012/Jul 12.pdf
     
    skismuggs likes this.
  10. AFrpaso

    AFrpaso USAFA '17

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2012
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    169
    Afmom2,

    I am sorry you feel that way. BCT is highly visible at the Academy. There is A LOT of oversight by officers and enlisted alike. I can't obviously speak for all the cadre, but I can assure you that "unwarranted verbal attacks and humiliation" rarely, if ever, occur. The cadets who run the program are extremely professional and, in my opinion, ready to be AF officers. They are hand selected by the active duty leadership of the school.

    Sent from my LG-H631 using Tapatalk
     
    USAFA83GradWife likes this.
  11. afmom2

    afmom2 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    7
    AFrpaso,

    Unfortunately that is not the case throughout the wing. The vast majority are outstanding young men and women. But not all of them!
     
  12. fencersmother

    fencersmother Founding Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,580
    Likes Received:
    800
    Oh afmom2... I am not sure this your comment is on the money ("Those cadre will be commissioned soon enough as officers and some of them do not deserve to be."). Why not? Because they were super-tough? My twins, when cadre, each followed the rules but had totally different styles, one more "folksy" and one "100% by the book, and why should you be at MY Academy anyway, SMACK?" Each has their place, in good cop/bad cop style. Both were asked to pin on boards of many of their basics.
     
  13. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,295
    Likes Received:
    129
    When it comes to BCT and then 4-degree training, there are few years where any kind of scandal is actually exposed. I recall in the mid-90s, the cadre used food as punishment. They had absurd attrition and finally discovered that cadre were starving basics as punishment. The stories from my USAFA academic advisor who was a basic during that BCT are pretty interesting. Around 2005, the class of 2006 had the breaks pushed hard on training 2009 due to the recent sex scandals, and 2009 seemed to have their own PTS of 2006 for it on the mental side!

    My point is that BCT is a little different every year and attrition numbers seem to vary considerably. My class of 1334 lost around 50 people in BCT, if I remember right. Other years lost fewer and some more. Class of 2006 had similar start numbers but only graduated about 860 (2010 graduated 1001)!

    From when I started as a cadet in 2006 to graduating in 2010 to the friends and contacts I kept to today, I have learned to trust and defer to USAFA leadership and training methods. It usually serves well and healthy skepticism tends to become readily apparent. Do mistakes happen and are some covered up? Sure. But by an large, I saw most real (and large) issues handled relatively transparently. After USAFA and on active duty, I had the opposite feeling and missed the more predictable expectations of USAFA.

    My 2 cents.
     
    F15DOC likes this.
  14. afmom2

    afmom2 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    7
    fencersmother and hornetguy, I remember you both from years back. I only have a new member name because I've long forgotten my previous one.

    Thank you both for your responses and I respect the different styles and approaches to training. Tough cop is great when it is fair and balanced. I also firmly believe that this form of training has worked for years and therefore must be working well. But I also believe what I stated. There are a few bad apples that have some power and control issues.
     
    MombaBomba likes this.
  15. parentalunit2

    parentalunit2 Parent

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    159
    Ummm, not the most reliable source.
     
    Dad likes this.
  16. Boozebin

    Boozebin Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    313
    After reading this article what I don't like is they are comparing amount of people lost from two different years (2019 and 2013). They really should be reporting percentages. After a little research I think 2019 lost 5-6% and 2013 lost 3% I think. I used the number lost that the article reported and the class profiles for each year to find the number entered.

    Is that a big swing? I have no clue I can only compare two years. That's not a lot of data points. I'm sure Hornet will give me a smack down comparing numbers with everything he learned at Rand! But is a 2-3% swing a big difference? I have no clue.
     
  17. Stealth_81

    Stealth_81 Super Moderator Moderator Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,664
    Likes Received:
    514
    That is true of any organization. I don't understand why this comes as a surprise to you that USAFA cadets are human. If we could pick perfect robotic candidates who would always act professionally and correctly, there would be no need for a 4-year leadership laboratory, would there?

    Stealth_81
     
    USAFA83GradWife, AFrpaso and Boozebin like this.
  18. afmom2

    afmom2 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    7
    Stealth_81,
    Agreed, and I remember you as well from years past. I'm just sore because of how it affected my son.
    Fact: training styles vary, and some cadre share far too much on their social websites.
    I also failed to mention that food (or lack of) was also a method used. DS lost 15lbs in 10 days.
     
    Stealth_81 likes this.
  19. fencersmother

    fencersmother Founding Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,580
    Likes Received:
    800
    I think some might say that some basics felt freer to leave because of a (supposed) uptick in the economy. Class of 2013 came in just after the econ crash(es) of 2007/08, and for some, they knew if they left, they had no plan B. (Not many, a few)
     
    Jmoney457 likes this.
  20. Stealth_81

    Stealth_81 Super Moderator Moderator Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,664
    Likes Received:
    514
    How it affected your son is up to him. He can be sore about it, too, or he can use it to learn how not to be a leader when his turn comes. The learning from the leadership lab goes in both directions.

    Stealth_81
     
    AFLEADMOM, Dad, AFrpaso and 2 others like this.

Share This Page