Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

[MemberLG]

But I have found some will go to great lengths to advance their position, including the use of language and tactics shown above and some even more egregious behaviour. I became involved in this thread again not to debate the cadre and training issue, but to address this ugliness.

I guess you missed the stolen valor and TPG discussion?

You answered your own question "this is just a forum." Your or my views on how this forum should be run is irrelevent. Since we agreed to it when we became a member of this forum, moderators has full discretion on what goes on this forum.

I think we can agree that we will disagree what an "egregious behaviour" might be on this forum.

 

[Christcorp]

Alex. You are the one implying that "ALL" cadets that quit, did so because they were made to cry and they wanted to go home to mommy. I said no such thing. This thread has evolved into one facet of individuals that quit.

My point was, Momba CAN'T try and compare selling drugs and bullying and hazing. You can't compare the two. Obviously, the implication, is that drugs are worse, and we're willing to admit it happens, but we're not willing to admit that hazing and bullying goes on. And I, along with most others, are tired of having to continually say that we DO ADMIT that it can happen. But as I said in my last post, just like the drugs, if the issue isn't reported and brought up to the proper people, then for all intent and purpose, it did not happen. (THIS TIME). So, for the original postings that mentioned an individual quitting because the cadre "Was out for him" and wanted him out, if the individual didn't report that, then in my opinion, it NEVER HAPPENED. Not that it can't, just that it didn't happen THIS TIME.

 

[AlexT]

Alex. You are the one implying that "ALL" cadets that quit, did so because they were made to cry and they wanted to go home to mommy. I said no such thing. This thread has evolved into one facet of individuals that quit.

My point was, Momba CAN'T try and compare selling drugs and bullying and hazing. You can't compare the two. Obviously, the implication, is that drugs are worse, and we're willing to admit it happens, but we're not willing to admit that hazing and bullying goes on. And I, along with most others, are tired of having to continually say that we DO ADMIT that it can happen. But as I said in my last post, just like the drugs, if the issue isn't reported and brought up to the proper people, then for all intent and purpose, it did not happen. (THIS TIME). So, for the original postings that mentioned an individual quitting because the cadre "Was out for him" and wanted him out, if the individual didn't report that, then in my opinion, it NEVER HAPPENED. Not that it can't, just that it didn't happen THIS TIME.

Christcorp,

Through the years, you have provided a great deal of information to countless parents, cadets and candidates, including myself - a parent. You have provided a great service. But unfortunately again you seem to have over-egged the custard. You state that "You (I) are (am) the one implying that "ALL" cadets that did so because the were made to cry and the wanted to go home to mommy." I implied or stated no such thing. What I stated was simply this: "Why would you want to infantilize a (emphasis added) cadet that quits?" I didn't say "all". I didn't say "most". I didn't say "some". I said "a cadet". It's singular, just like your original post.

As for the remainder of your post above, it really isn't germane to the issue I was discussing.

 

[Christcorp]

OK. In respect for yours and other's desires previously, I too will drop the subject. Unless asked a direct question, which I hope doesn't happen, I will refrain from adding any more comments to this thread. Out of respect.

 

[afmom2020]

So, for the original postings that mentioned an individual quitting because the cadre "Was out for him" and wanted him out, if the individual didn't report that, then in my opinion, it NEVER HAPPENED. Not that it can't, just that it didn't happen THIS TIME.

According to this logic, if something is not reported or discovered, then it never happened.

Things that happened this year:

1. Mail theft. Culprit not found. - Illegal behavior
2. Production, use and distribution of drugs. One person found - Illegal behavior
3. Lots of buyers when it comes to #2. People not found - Illegal behavior (this is based on the charges brought against the cadet and his bank records. If he made as much as they are allegedly, he had a pretty wide distribution ring which included seller and buyer)
4. Cadre who went against leadership's directions when it came to PT cards. We have plenty of cadets that posted in this very thread saying that it happened. This is not illegal, which means that they shouldn't go to jail, but they are still violating Academy's rules. It's not hard to see the thinking either. New rules are too soft, so we're going to find ways around. Screw the fact that officers made that determination.

Considering all the illegal and unethical behavior, how can anyone say that what described by the original mom never happened? At best you can say maybe it did and maybe it didn't, but let's get off the high horses and stop painting the cadets as saints with some higher moral standard. They are kids, very smart kids, and that means that when they are good, they are great, but when they are bad, they are smart enough not to get caught. The fact that they have gotten an appointment to any SA says nothing about their moral character. Their moral character is shown during the four years that are there, which means the scrutiny must be harder than it is elsewhere and that even the rumors of inappropriate behavior must be looked into.

 

[skismuggs]

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

When a thread gets to a point where people are directly or indirectly calling each other liars, it's time to stop. 'Nuff said.

 

[Freda'sMom]

So, for the original postings that mentioned an individual quitting because the cadre "Was out for him" and wanted him out, if the individual didn't report that, then in my opinion, it NEVER HAPPENED.

Wow. What a ridiculous position to take.

I guess all those rapes and sexual assaults that weren't reported just "NEVER HAPPENED" either.

You should be embarrassed to even post such nonsense.

 

[Stealth_81]

When a thread gets to a point where people are directly or indirectly calling each other liars, it's time to stop. 'Nuff said.

I agree. It's time to stop posting unless you have something POSITIVE to add to this conversation. Consider that a warning to all parties involved.

Stealth_81

 

[LineInTheSand]

What is the PT card people refer to?

 

[afmom2020]

What is the PT card people refer to?

I might have gotten the acronym wrong, but cadets had a card listing the physical activity they had done per the day. They were only supposed to do a certain number of pull-ups, push-ups, etc. The numbers were established by the leadership. Cadres thought that they weren't tough enough.

For example, say that you could only do 10 push ups for the rest of the day. They would do 10, but each time they would make the basics stay on the down position for 2-3 minutes before going up again. So sure, they were doing 10 push-ups, but they were doing push-ups for half an hour.

The reason for the card I believe was to prevent injuries and physically overtaxing the Basics. Some of the cadres didn't appreciate the directives from up the chain of command. Some Basics who finished BCT posted here and stated as much. Smartly, they left the discussion before they would say too much. In the end, we only have their words, but these are kids that we've seen post for a long time before reporting and they have first hand experience.

 

[LineInTheSand]

The PT card sounds….. soft.

 

[afmom2020]

The PT card sounds….. soft.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't know the numbers, but it's coming from the Academy. The cadres are being instructed on this, so if they are violating order, they are at fault. I think that's why there are so many upset people.

Regardless of the issue in this thread, I think it will become very important for USAFA to deal with this issue when it comes to the Basics who didn't quit, because why should 4C trust cadres that already disobeyed orders?

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

The PT card sounds….. soft.

Funny. I've heard the upperclassmen make the same comment. But as you know, you can make anything tough. I believe that they were allowed 15 pushup per set. But you can count: "down" ..... wait.... wait .... wait... "up" ... 1 sir!

"PT" is, I think, physical training.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Regardless of the issue in this thread, I think it will become very important for USAFA to deal with this issue when it comes to the Basics who didn't quit, because why should 4C trust cadres that already disobeyed orders?

This is probably one of the hardest lessons 4/c cadets (basics, plebes, swabs, whatever) learn…. your cadre aren't perfect and in fact, some of them are pretty pathetic. That's tough for someone who enters those AFA gates, believing AFA to be a beacon for all that is good and right…. only to realize it doesn't always live up to the perfect picture they (we) had in our minds.

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't know the numbers, but it's coming from the Academy. The cadres are being instructed on this, so if they are violating order, they are at fault. I think that's why there are so many upset people.

Regardless of the issue in this thread, I think it will become very important for USAFA to deal with this issue when it comes to the Basics who didn't quit, because why should 4C trust cadres that already disobeyed orders?

Afmom2020, I understand your concern, but I think you're painting with a very broad brush. The cadre did not disobey orders. Why in the world would they intentionally put their careers on the line like that? Ok, not saying that a few don't do stupid things. A very small few do. As already stated in this thread, there are checks and balances already in place. They need to be used. They are used. Some don't get caught - that's life.

I'm a mom to a 2018-er. By anyone's standards, they had one of the toughest BCT in recent years. Even my DH thought they had it pretty tough. My DD survived it and is very proud of that fact. No 2019-er wants anyone to think they had an easy basic. No one. They are tough, strong, and resilient. Those that survived it, I can assure you, are incredibly proud of themselves.

BTW, that doesn't mean that some won't quit. Being proud of yourself but realizing this isn't for you are two different things.

 

[LineInTheSand]

The PT card sounds….. soft.

Funny. I've heard the upperclassmen make the same comment. But as you know, you can make anything tough. I believe that they were allowed 15 pushup per set. But you can count: "down" ..... wait.... wait .... wait... "up" ... 1 sir!

"PT" is, I think, physical training.

At CGA, we, as cadre, had three options…. PT was for physical training…. get them healthy, work them out etc. MT was motivational training… it was PT but more fun (and yes, I mean the fun that makes you smile or fills you with a sense of accomplishment). And then there was IT…. incentive training….. this was the mean PT that broke people, made them cry, etc….. IT sucked. There were limits for IT (and the other Ts) but only the cadre knew the limits. That sense of not knowing helps a lot. And yes, there were ways to make IT more painful, within the rules…. which we did when extra incentive was needed. We didn't "like" IT as cadre (I certainly hated being ITed when I was a swab)… but it served a very real… in your face, purpose.

I'm not sure, for what you've explained, if PT cards are something the basics are aware of or it's something for the cadre to keep track with.

 

[afmom2020]

This is probably one of the hardest lessons 4/c cadets (basics, plebes, swabs, whatever) learn…. your cadre aren't perfect and in fact, some of them are pretty pathetic. That's tough for someone who enters those AFA gates, believing AFA to be a beacon for all that is good and right…. only to realize it doesn't always live up to the perfect picture they (we) had in our minds.

I agree and I think that's true everywhere. How many kids figured out that in college that teacher really does grade based on the people he likes? Or the football player got away with not doing his homework before the big game? There's just a greater expectation for the SA from kids and parents. It's also harder to swallow, because not all cadres were the same. Some did apply the rules as they were given.

I still feel that the Academy should have supervised the cadre better after starting a new system. I can't imagine that anyone is surprised that some upperclassmen felt that the new basics had it easy. That's where I think the problem is. This was an issue that everyone could see coming. There should have been more eyes on the cadres.

Edited to say that yes, the basic were aware of the PT card.

 

[AlexT]

The PT card sounds….. soft.

Yeah, it might be...but the motivations for using them may not be what you think. I know at another SA (which will remain nameless for the time being), there was unusually high attrition during summer training for a recent class. For the following class, a number of physical exercises were banned. The training experience no doubt was softer and the attrition rate for that class dropped into the low single digit range. While most assumed the changes were instituted to address the high attrition rate, I also have come to understand that varsity coaches at the SA became somewhat perturbed and vocal when a significant number of their 4/c athletes were suffering from injuries that while they may not have affected cadet performance doing routine cadet activities, they certainly had a debilitating effect on athletic performance.

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

I'm not sure, for what you've explained, if PT cards are something the basics are aware of or it's something for the cadre to keep track with.

A cadet could probably answer this better than I could, but it's my understanding that the PT card was something the cadre used as guidelines for training during BCT only. It's new this year and probably due to all the injuries during BCT last year. Let's face it, injured basics can't pass/take the PFT!

The basics didn't really know what those guidelines were though you could probably figure it out as you went along.