Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

You all have very legitimate comments. For those concerned about prospective applicants reading these posts, I would never discourage any future applicant from attending a service academy. I don't believe this topic would scare anybody off. If anything it may enlighten them.
I have another son who graduated from usafa several years ago and he loves serving his country and has a wonderful career.
We will never know if my son who quit may have stayed, if not for his experience in his particular flight. Everything happens for a reason, right?
Good Luck jwest182 !!!
 
Momba. No, I want speaking specifically about afmom2 and her son. I was emphasizing, that while it may seem that the cadre can "have it out" for someone,they don't. And they definitely don't get to decide who stays and goes. As has been pointed out here numerous times, each basic trainee responds differently to the training, discipline, and verbal commands. But the point of BCT isn't to find how each individual handles it and to work with that. The purpose is the break down their individuality so they can perform as a team with the same goals and direction. It's up to the individual trainee to determine the best way to handle that training. And the bottom line is, some trainees simply can't find a way to handle that style of training. But approximately 95% do find a way.

Fwiw, there are many who start ROTC to later find out that's not for them either. The same with JrRotc, football, and many other team activities. Some adapt well to some, and not others. But the number one goal of BCT, is to break down 1200+ individual personalities and make them realize how important it is to perform as one. I'll never apologize for that, and I think it's very important for the future of the Air Force and its leaders. And ROTC isn't better or worse, just different. Parents like Pima and bullet will tell you that their son had his fair share of hell in ROTC also. This has been a proven method at the academies and it works. Obviously, not for everyone, but for the majority it does.
 
I admit when reading this thread and asking around to previous service academy grads I raised an eyebrow. I researched on line the retention rate at one well known senior military college and their freshman retention was in the 90% and the 4 year graduation rate was in the 50% area.
 
This thread brings me back to the days when my sons were basics, and later, when they were both cadre.

One son told this story from BCT:
Beat for not doing pushups with others in his squad who were being beat. Cadre in his face, yelling at him. For a LONG time.
Cadre: Basic! Why aren't you upset by all this yelling?
Son: Sir! You didn't grow up with my mother!
(He got a candy bar for that answer!)

As cadre, it was so different. And I know for a fact that one was "meaner" than the other. He had higher expectations of his basics, and wanted them to work at their best, 100% of the time.

As for those basics (and later 4*s) who get upset at yelling, at criticism, at the "Here's a quarter, go call Mommy," remarks: sososo many of these kids were golden children. Always getting the best grades, stars on local sports teams, awards, attaboys, congrats. Many have never faced any criticism at all, and as they'll find out later, have NEVER EVER been in the bottom half of their class, let alone out of the top 10%. So many just can't seem to make that adjustment, to work from the runt position.
 
:thumb:
fencersmother said:
One son told this story from BCT:
Beat for not doing pushups with others in his squad who were being beat. Cadre in his face, yelling at him. For a LONG time.
Cadre: Basic! Why aren't you upset by all this yelling?
Son: Sir! You didn't grow up with my mother!
(He got a candy bar for that answer!
Click to expand...

LOL!! WE MIGHT BE RELATED!!!
 
fencersmother said:
One son told this story from BCT:
Beat for not doing pushups with others in his squad who were being beat. Cadre in his face, yelling at him. For a LONG time.
Cadre: Basic! Why aren't you upset by all this yelling?
Son: Sir! You didn't grow up with my mother!
(He got a candy bar for that answer!)
Click to expand...

For some, getting yelled at is not going to make a single ding, even if it is right in their face screaming. I wonder what other creative methods are put to use in order to "break" basics who can tune out yelling.
 
MombaBomba said:
For some, getting yelled at is not going to make a single ding, even if it is right in their face screaming. I wonder what other creative methods are put to use in order to "break" basics who can tune out yelling.
Click to expand...

For some, the yelling is what broke them, for others the physical strain broke them. For even others, a thirty minute session of staring at a wall while at attention got their attention. People broke on the A-Course, some even broke thinking about the A-Course and still others just could not handle memorizing all of the quotes. Everyone finds something to struggle or break with, it is just a matter of time...
 
MombaBomba said:
For some, getting yelled at is not going to make a single ding, even if it is right in their face screaming. I wonder what other creative methods are put to use in order to "break" basics who can tune out yelling.
Click to expand...

And yet I know of a few kids that left because of the 'yelling'. These are tough kids but they are so used to being the star kids that they can't handle it.
 
Yelling. In the fencer household, we'd say Buck Up, Junior!

Staring at the wall, at front leaning rest for thirty minutes, might have gotten their attention.
 
So I wonder if the cadre learn pets names because nothing got my kids attention like yelling wrong names, especially the dogs' names. ;)
 
This last page of posts, is what it's all about. Each individual handling BCT and the academy differently. 85-90% of these kids were the big fish in a little pond. One of the hardest things to do is to take 1200 Type-A personalities, and treat them equally. Some can handle it. Some can't.

Similar to fencing momma, my son simply stood there and took it. Didn't smirk. Wasn't smug or arrogant or conceited. Just stood there. In one bout with a cadre in his face, they asked him "doesn't this bother you" he said no. They asked why. He said, you don't know my father. He was a Senior NCO. The cadre smiled and said "Nevermind". I think my son said they didn't get in his face much if at all after that. I admit, there are times looking back, that I feel I may have been to hard or strict on my kids. But when I see how both my son and daughter have turned out, it's easy to rationalize.

The truth is, whether or not a trainee can handle the yelling, the in their face, the making them do something over and over again, etc. is definitely an individual thing. Those who find a way to deal with it, while learning the purpose and accepting it, will do fine at the academy. Those who let it bother them, and affect their performance, won't do well there. It doesn't mean they won't do well and succeed in a different environment.

How many remember Mars Boy? He made it through BCT, with a lot of notoriety. Yet he made it. He later had problems academically, but if anyone had a pseudo reputation going in, that could be exploited, it was him. Yet, he was able to manage his way through BCT. I had a lot of respect for him, not letting BCT get to him. Whether a person makes it through BCT and the academy or not, is more about them and less about the cadre and the academy.
 
As ya'll already know, you have to want to do it. If you got there then you can make through the 4yrs. It isn't for everyone and that's okay. Goodness sake, at CGA, we started with 320 and only graduated 155. Many of those who did not graduate come to reunions and talk on our yr grp facebook. Many wished that they had stuck it out.
 
Christcorp said:
This last page of posts, is what it's all about. Each individual handling BCT and the academy differently. 85-90% of these kids were the big fish in a little pond. One of the hardest things to do is to take 1200 Type-A personalities, and treat them equally. Some can handle it. Some can't.

Similar to fencing momma, my son simply stood there and took it. Didn't smirk. Wasn't smug or arrogant or conceited. Just stood there. In one bout with a cadre in his face, they asked him "doesn't this bother you" he said no. They asked why. He said, you don't know my father. He was a Senior NCO. The cadre smiled and said "Nevermind". I think my son said they didn't get in his face much if at all after that. I admit, there are times looking back, that I feel I may have been to hard or strict on my kids. But when I see how both my son and daughter have turned out, it's easy to rationalize.

The truth is, whether or not a trainee can handle the yelling, the in their face, the making them do something over and over again, etc. is definitely an individual thing. Those who find a way to deal with it, while learning the purpose and accepting it, will do fine at the academy. Those who let it bother them, and affect their performance, won't do well there. It doesn't mean they won't do well and succeed in a different environment.

How many remember Mars Boy? He made it through BCT, with a lot of notoriety. Yet he made it. He later had problems academically, but if anyone had a pseudo reputation going in, that could be exploited, it was him. Yet, he was able to manage his way through BCT. I had a lot of respect for him, not letting BCT get to him. Whether a person makes it through BCT and the academy or not, is more about them and less about the cadre and the academy.
Click to expand...

This isn't meant to be argumentative. I am genuinely curious, so here goes.

ROTC and USAFA cadets all enter in at the same rank, 2nd Lt.
Each can go on to make a career of it or do a 5 and dive.
ROTC is very different from 4 years at the USAFA. ROTC gets to miss out on all the Doolie "stuff" and the USAFA BCT "experience."
BCT and Doolie year combined usually reduces the entire USAFA class by about 10%.

Is the "quit/wash out" rate for ROTC the same as USAFA? Do approximately 20%-25% of AF ROTC recipients quit/give-up before graduating with their 4 year degree?

Other than "I got the ring and the degree from USAFA" what really is the "end difference" between an officer trained USAFA and ROTC?
(I have no military background, so while this might be obvious to the military experienced, it isn't to me)

The message I get as a parent from USAFA is that USAFA is the superior experience.
The message I get as a civilian from the AF is that they are equal as they come in at the same level (2nd Lt.)

There just seems to be so many mixed messages out there. I could very well not be reading the messages correctly.
 
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