Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

[Boozebin]

I've spoken personally with cadet and midshipman cadre who have stated quite clearly that they are in a position to decide who gets to join their academy and who doesn't. And they will do everything they can to get someone to quit who they feel doesn't belong..

I understand your feeling but I would like to play devil's advocate a little on this. Could it have been that these cadet and mids that you talked to were having a higher opinion of themselves they what they truly have? Or could they have been going along with the sentiment of the conversation so as to not rock the boat?

I'm not saying that's what happened but people especially young people tend to do just that.

I'm also not saying you don't get bad cadre or more accurately cadre making mistakes. I'm sure there are a few bad apples but please don't let it spoil the bunch. There is a chain of command and it is drilled into the basics heads from day one and actions could have been taken on both sides. We could arm chair quarterback this till the cows come home on either side of this and usually what happens is the truth sits somewhere in the middle where both side (cadre and basic) made mistakes and the outcome could have been a lot different.

 

[AlexT]

What Freda's Mom related makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than all of the assertions "putting faith in the leadership and institution" to ALWAYS do the right thing. There have no universal claims made that all cadre or detailers are incompetent, self-motivated bullies. Some people related that it happens occasionally with unfortunate results. On the other hand, I've read plenty of assertions here that "It just doesn't happen...there are too many checks to keep it from happening." Oh Please. The assertion that the process is transparent and that there are too many many in a position to potentially intervene (other cadre and trainees, etc) also assumes that those witnessing the abuse have the will to act and stick their necks out and take upon themselves all consequences that it could potentially entail. Yeah, that happens all of time.
'

 

[MemberLG]

What Freda's Mom related makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than all of the assertions "putting faith in the leadership and institution" to ALWAYS do the right thing. There have no universal claims made that all cadre or detailers are incompetent, self-motivated bullies. Some people related that it happens occasionally with unfortunate results. On the other hand, I've read plenty of assertions here that "It just doesn't happen...there are too many checks to keep it from happening." Oh Please. The assertion that the process is transparent and that there are too many many in a position to potentially intervene (other cadre and trainees, etc) also assumes that those witnessing the abuse have the will to act and stick their necks out and take upon themselves all consequences that it could potentially entail. Yeah, that happens all of time.
'

Interesting choices of words "a heck of lot more sense" vs "all of the assertions."

To me it makes "a heck of lot more sense" to believe opinions of several posters with varying credentials and experience than a third party account.

 

[AlexT]

I'm a person, not a "third party account." What you choose to believe is your business. But like Freda's Mom, I also have heard accounts from both trainees and cadre on the techniques used by cadre to induce a specific trainee to DOR.

 

[Godandcountry]

I think much of this debate boils down to perspective...he said/she said. Winston Churchill's quote - "history is written by the victors" comes to mind. All the accusations being levied could apply to the BCT experience that my son had and related to us. No different than the OP's son's claim. But for whatever reason, he wanted it enough to persevere when some others didn't. As a result, I / he / we see the harshness of the experience as a necessary part of the training and of value to cull those without the mental toughness and desire to persevere through extreme hardship and self doubt. They are grooming these young people to lead in WAR...this is not a tryout for a school sport or play. If my son had instead chosen to separate due to the harshness and cadre / BCT induced self doubt, I have no doubt we would have a much different perspective due to the emotions involved and the sense of loss/grieving we would be going through...denial, anger, bargaining/blaming...

Added: This is not to say OP's take is wrong...just that there is an alternate response to the same cadre behavior and the choices made will, to a great extent, dictate how the situation is viewed historically.


Sent using the Service Academy Forums® mobile app

 

[Freda'sMom]

Misguided
Idiots
Disturbing
Wrong
Think they know better than admissions

Yes to to all the above.

Just don't think it doesn't happen because it does. Yes, it does. What we may think of as "hazing" can occur in many subtle ways, enough to convince a new cadet/mid that he's better off somewhere else. To deny it is foolishness, ignorance or a desire to hide the truth.

btw - Never said the vast majority quit because of the cadre, ChristCorp. Don't falsely misquote my words.

 

[Freda'sMom]

I'm a person, not a "third party account." What you choose to believe is your business. But like Freda's Mom, I also have heard accounts from both trainees and cadre on the techniques used by cadre to induce a specific trainee to DOR.

Exactly what I've been told, despite what the people here who claim to know so much are saying.

 

[-Bull-]

This just keeps getting better and better!

if I had a nickel for every "first hand story" I've heard from someone that quit a course saying how messed up said course was and how it wasn't actually their performance, I'd buy bubble gum for the whole forum.

 

[AlexT]

I think much of this debate boils down to perspective...he said/she said. Winston Churchill's quote - "history is written by the victors" comes to mind. All the accusations being levied could apply to the BCT experience that my son had and related to us. No different than the OP's son's claim. But for whatever reason, he wanted it enough to persevere when some others didn't. As a result, I / he / we see the harshness of the experience as a necessary part of the training and of value to cull those without the mental toughness and desire to persevere through extreme hardship and self doubt. They are grooming these young people to lead in WAR...this is not a tryout for a school sport or play. If my son had instead chosen to separate due to the harshness and cadre / BCT induced self doubt, I have no doubt we would have a much different perspective due to the emotions involved and the sense of loss/grieving we would be going through...denial, anger, bargaining/blaming...

This is a reasoned observation. Just to be clear on my perspective, I have an upper class youngster at a SA who is doing quite well, so my observations are not coming from a perspective of grieving/loss/denial/anger. Also understand that I have nothing against extremely rigorous physical/emotional training. The more, the better. If a trainee screws up, IT them. If they keep screwing up, keep ITing them. Trainees understand this, Cadre understand this, all is good. What keeps trainees going through all of this is the desire to reach an end goal, but even more, is the knowledge that there is a squad-mate/ship mate there next to them subject to the same discipline and same hardships. Those who really want to be there can generally endure this. If a trainee is deemed unworthy by the Cadre, however, and intense yelling and IT sessions aren't enough to induce the trainee to DOR, then the Cadre will work diligently to remove one of the two supports upon which that trainee is relying to persevere: the misery loves company principle. I'm assuming that at every SA, the trainees are bombarded with the idea that they can't do it alone. You have to rely on your shipmates and squad mates. Unscrupulous Cadre will turn this principle on its head. They will isolate the unwanted trainee from the rest of his/her squadmates/shipmates. They will actively try to turn the other trainees against the target. They will IT the squad while the target trainee is told to sit on a bunk. They will isolate the trainee during meals, forcing them to sit at the cadre or regimental command table. They will be told to sit and watch IC sports activities. They will be told that they have no friends. They will be told that they will never have friends and that all of their squad mates/shipmates hate them because of all of the extra punishment that they have had to do because of the target trainee's transgressions. They will be told that their squadmates want them to be gone. They will be told that even if they persevere through the training period and join the corps of cadets, they will have no friends or companionship. They will be made to feel that not only are they currently pariahs, but that they will always be pariahs. The isolation will be so complete that the target trainee will have little or no opportunity to interact privately with shipmates/squadmates to determine if what the Cadre are telling them is true. Interestingly, nothing here is "against the rules."

Ah, but some will say, the trainee has recourse. There are counselors. There are senior officers and enlisted personnel who will intervene. But this also works against the trainee. Trainee seeks time to meet with a counselor/chaplain then unscrupulous cadre will merely point out to the remaining trainees, "see, trainee X is a shirker. You're all here sweating like beasts, while he's sitting in a nice air conditioned office talking to a chaplain." If trainee goes up the chain of command, then trainee will be painted as an unreliable "rat" that somehow violated some non-existent "code". The abusive behavior may at this point end, but the damage has been done. The trainee has been isolated emotionally from the rest of his squad mates.

Just to be clear, at this point it is not the Cadre's punishment that induce the trainee to leave, but the belief that they will never have all of the cameraderie that seems so integral to the SA experience.

 

[Godandcountry]

AlexT - it would take an especially mentally tough individual to persevere through the scenario you describe. In this example, what cadet behavior led to that particular cadre response. Which SA?


Sent using the Service Academy Forums® mobile app

 

[Christcorp]

Here's the problem. When an individual QUITS the academy, we will NEVER know the full reasons. Maybe they just couldn't hack it. Maybe they realized it wasn't for them. Maybe they were intimidated or treated unfairly; or at least that was their perception of the situation. There's a lot of possibilities. And the cadres and the "Active Duty Staff" will only go so far in trying to keep the person there. But I can guarantee 100%, that the cadet trainee didn't simply say: "I quit", and went and got their personal belongings and walked out the gate. The administration/Active Duty Staff, spoke with the individual to find out WHY they wanted to leave; and to determine if there was a way to salvage them and prevent them from leaving. I guarantee this 100%.

But it is definitely possible that the individual who is quitting/quit, was demoralized or discouraged and didn't feel that it was a place that they wanted to stay. I have never argued this. But whether or not the "Demoralization and Discouragement" was an intensional effort by a cadre member; or simple the perception of the individual trainee, and everyone else there was being treated the same way, is the part we will NEVER KNOW 100%. We will only ever get 1 side of this story. That of the individual who quit.

The person kicked out, which is extremely rare unless for medical reasons, knows exactly why they are leaving. Whther it's in BCT or during the academic year, there will not be any question as to why a person is getting kicked out. They may rationalize the situation and project the blame away from themselves, but the why is still known.

The person who quits, is different. The academy didn't say they wanted you gone. You might believe that a cadre member didn't want you there. You might believe that s/he (the cadre member) is treating you differently or unfairly compared to the others. You might believe that they can make like so miserable that it will force you to quit because they don't want you there. But the truth is; we'll NEVER KNOW. Ir's not possible. The only FACT in this ENTIRE DEBATE, is that the person who Quit, had the FINAL SAY SO. It was their choice. The academy didn't kick them out. As far as making life so miserable and discouraging that they felt they had no other choice but to quit...... We don't know if that is in fact the truth, or simply "Their Perception". People quit during BCT every year. They quit for numerous reasons. Why, should anyone who quits, feel "Different" than anyone else who quits? Maybe they are rationalizing. Maybe they had a valid situation. The problem with that is; every cadet trainee knows the chain of command. They know for a fact, that if they believe they are being discriminated against and/or treated differently than everyone else, that they have an avenue to go to get it resolved.

So, assuming an individual who quit, didn't do it because they couldn't handle the physical or mental training. And they didn't quit because they realized that the military wasn't for them. Then the only other reason to quit, is because you feel discouraged or demoralized there, because you feel you're being treated unfairly. If this is the case, then the question is; what did the chain of command say when you brought it to their attention? If you didn't bring it to their attention, then I have nothing to say. That's your fault. You knew how the chain worked. If you brought it up to the right people's attention, and you feel that they didn't handle it properly and you decided to leave anyway; then that's your choice. but again, when a person quits, we'll never know the full truth.

 

[Hurricane12]

Man, everyone kreps on Forgetting the fifth law of theNavy: "on the strength of one link in the cable, dependenth the might of the chain. Who knows when thou mayest be tested so live that you bear the strain!"

Collective punishment can isolate plebes from their peers. There are definite advantages/disadvantages to being in or out of the plebe class circle of trust. However this can serve a couple purposes:
First, in the real Navy/USMC (and at an SA), failure of the individual can lead to failure of a mission, injury, or death. If you don't know what you're supposed to know or can't do what you're supposed to do you won't just kill yourself, you'll kill everyone else in the aircraft and possibly those relying on you on the ground. So yeah, making it clear that an individual's actions can cause problems for the group is important.
Second, in times of adversity the group won't always be there to comfort you. As a plebe you need to learn to count on yourself. If you don't have self-confidence and reliance in this business you won't get very far. It sucks to be outside that plebe circle of trust. But, as both a plebe and a detailer, I saw people dig deep and become really great mids and officers.

As a plebe and a detailer, I never saw people who were legitimately hurt (not "I'm sore!" Everyone's sore, kid) or had real emotional issues have it held against them.
Also, it's remarkably hard to get rid of poor performers against their will. As in, it should definitely be easier.

People keep on talking about "I want it to be hard, but the cadre are mean!!!!11!" Yeah, they're mean. It's not supposed to be comfortable and you're supposed to be tested. It's supposed to be hard.

Apologies for all the typos, I'm doing this on my broke ass phone.

 

[Christcorp]

The Old Cliché:

"If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it".

 

[AlexT]

AlexT - it would take an especially mentally tough individual to persevere through the scenario you describe. In this example, what cadet behavior led to that particular cadre response. Which SA?
Sent using the Service Academy Forums® mobile app

I really can't say what the "initial infraction" was, other than it was probably a typical trainee screw up or series of screw ups. Ultimately that became irrelevant as the Cadre shifted from their mission of correcting the mistakes to just eliminating the problem altogether.

 

[Blueblood1]

This just keeps getting better and better!

if I had a nickel for every "first hand story" I've heard from someone that quit a course saying how messed up said course was and how it wasn't actually their performance, I'd buy bubble gum for the whole forum.

I must wholeheartedly disagree with you. I had a friend, whose second cousin's girlfriend knew a guy that read something on the internet, that says there is documented evidence out there somewhere that disproves this statement.

 

[Christcorp]

I must wholeheartedly disagree with you. I had a friend, whose second cousin's girlfriend knew a guy that read something on the internet, that says there is documented evidence out there somewhere that disproves this statement.

I read that too.

 

[MemberLG]

I'm a person, not a "third party account." What you choose to believe is your business. But like Freda's Mom, I also have heard accounts from both trainees and cadre on the techniques used by cadre to induce a specific trainee to DOR.

Let me think, would they be things like

- public humiliation (i.e. making comments against a new cadet in a formation, blaming a new cadet for all the failures )
- additional attention by cadre (i.e. spending additional time inspection a new cadet, several cadre surrounding a new cadet, and etc)
- yelling
- self doubt (i.e. discussion involving - why are you here, you don't belong here, look at you, do you miss your mommy and daddy, and etc.)
- additional physical training
- additional duties

or something that are against the regulation and could get cadre into trouble if they get caught

- physical hazing
- cursing
- sleep deprivation
- food deprivation

Can't have a meaningful discussion without details.

 

[skismuggs]

This issue always begs the question. "What in the world did the kid do or not do to get that special attention???" It must have been something, yes? There are 1200 basics and the kid gets singled out?? S(he) must have stood out or drawn enough attention for them to take the time and effort to give him/her a hard time. We are hearing one side of this story and not the other side which in my opinion is unfair. It would be nice to hear the side of the accused before making all these judgments (which will never happen, I know.) I feel for the parents of this cadet but I have a strong feeling there is more to this story than the information given.

 

[haleym]

I'm a person, not a "third party account." What you choose to believe is your business. But like Freda's Mom, I also have heard accounts from both trainees and cadre on the techniques used by cadre to induce a specific trainee to DOR.

Exactly what I've been told, despite what the people here who claim to know so much are saying.

OF COURSE there are those techniques out there! There needs to be adversity in order to grow. If we did not challenge them physically AND MENTALLY, they would not be prepared to even be cadets here at USAFA (let alone officers in the AF). That is just the way it is. I once told a basic that "I can have you out of here like that", but of course, it's simply not true. It's a technique to mentally break them down and have them work as a team later on. It's a WAKE UP call. If that is enough to shake to confidence of a basic so hard that they leave, they simply did not have the mental fortitude it takes in the first place to make in through the academy. It is not our job as cadre to ensure that their feelings aren't hurt, it's our job to prepare them to be cadets. And unsurprisingly, it is not always a pleasant process.

 

[MombaBomba]

I still think many of you here put too much emphasis on the cadre, and not enough on the individual trainee. The cadre doesn't know these basic trainees ahead of time. The cadre are also prepared for teaching/instructing basic training. The fact that so few trainees are sent home, shows that there isn't some massive problem going on here.

I just can't for the life of me, understand how some here can accuse some of the cadre of being on a power trip and having personal grievances and agendas, that cut short the dreams of some trainees. And even those who voluntarily leave, meet with Active Duty academy officers. They have the ability to express problems. So, to make such accusations, also means that you are accusing the "Active Duty" officers and NCO's at the academy, of not doing their job. Of not caring. Of simply signing papers for the cadet upper classmen. Basically, you're saying the active duty Captain or Major, work for the 20-21 year old senior cadet. And if the senior cadet says get rid of someone, the Captain or Major jumps.

Sorry, but it simply isn't that way. The cadre/senior cadet obviously is in the position to evaluate a trainee's progression. But if they feel there is a problem with a trainee making it, the active duty staff gets involved. The cadre/senior cadet doesn't decide to send a trainee home.

Have mistakes possibly been made where a trainee was sent home involuntarily? Yes. Have some trainees gotten so discouraged that they quit. Most definitely. An example of that has been shown in this thread. But why must it be that the reason a trainee either quit or was forced to leave, is because some members of the cadre were on a power trip or had personal grievances or a hidden agenda? Why couldn't it also be as simple as; the trainee couldn't handle the training. Either physically or mentally? The cadre and basic training isn't there to coddle the trainees and show them love.

I'd bet a paycheck, that overwhelmingly more often than not, the reason most trainees leave the academy voluntarily, is because either they couldn't handle it, or they realized after being there a little while, that the academy just wasn't for them. You'd be surprised how many kids say they've wanted the academy their WHOLE LIFE, then when they finally get there, realize it is nothing like they imagined. Many of them quit. That's not the academy's fault.

I can also tell you of horror stories of applicants asking me during their interview if there was a way I could make them "Unqualified"? That they didn't really want to go to the academy, but they felt they had to apply because others, (Family), was pushing them in that direction. We've had some get off the bus at basic training and make it clear that they didn't want to be there. The point is.... It's possible that some trainees got kicked out of basic, when they shouldn't have. It's also probable that some trainees up and quit, because they had a cadre member who wasn't the best leader and discouraged them. But it's also "More Likely", that the trainees simply realized that they couldn't deal with the training physically or mentally; and/or that the academy simply wasn't what they though it was going to be. I hear that a lot from those who were in JrROTC, CAP, and Scouts. They don't normally quit, but many thought those programs were going to really prepare them for the academy. They realize soon, how it's not what they expected. On a case by case basis, there are definitely possibilities. Overall, I'll stick with the theory that most trainees who leave either voluntarily or involuntarily, do so because the academy isn't what they thought it would be; and/or because they realize they just can't handle the physical and/or mental training and conditions.

And there is nothing wrong with realizing it's not for you, and moving on. But sometimes, you have to suck it up and press on. I'm positive that not everyone loves their job and their supervisor/manager. But most of us put up with it for the bigger goal down the line. E.g. paycheck, retirement, job security, benefits, etc. Simply saying, that "IF" the reasons you wanted to attend the academy truly exists, and you really want them, then there is no reason in the world that you can't make it through BCT and 4 years at the academy. If you "CHOOSE" not to stay, that is totally up to you. It's not the cadre's fault. The other 95% made it through.

I think there is a communication problem going on here. I did not see anyone claim or even imply most or even a significant portion of the cadre can get out of line. They said it can happen and does happen.

The problem with cadre on an ego power trip with an agenda is that it has to be noticed and reported by someone of equal or higher rank (another cadre or PP). If the accusation comes from someone lower down the food chain, the assumption will be "the basic is just a snowflake who doesn't understand and isn't used to hard work because he is in the first stressful experience of his life."

Just from reading the responses in this thread, I notice that those with military experience automatically assume the basic is the one who is either misunderstanding or misstating the situation. Those with military experience seem to automatically dismiss a parent's relay of such experience as third party and not to be trusted. This implies that the parent sharing is either lying/exaggerating or was lied to/mislead by their child and/or child's friends and people they personally know. (Please note: I don't say all with military experience, just that most of the military experience people responding here seem to take this position.)

What I find frustrating is this notion of "theoretically" it can happen, but then the denial that it did actually happen. What I also find confusing is this notion of transparency in the SAs. I have a difficult time wrapping my head around that.

Also, just because a cadre goes on a power trip doesn't mean PP is not necessarily doing their job. Looking at the academic year, the squadron AOC and AMT at the USAFA are responsible for approximately 100 kids and are there during the day for about 5 days a week. Basically a 9-5 job type set up, though I am sure there are many who put in far more time than that, this is just to build a picture. The AOC and AMT can NOT possibly keep an eye on 100 cadets 24/7. It isn't possible. They aren't superhuman. They may be the USAFA's version of Mother Teresa, but there is no way they can possibly do and know it all. The AOC and AMT rely upon squadron cadet command structure for information. If the squadron cadet's and/or cadre don't inform the AOC and AMT, they may never know there is cadre on an ego trip with an agenda running rampant in the squadron.

Even in business, it takes a whistle blower to bring attention to someone on an ego trip abusing their authority. The reporting person must be willing to stick their neck out and face possible backlash and retribution. Even if the person is doing the right thing, they may be faced with others who won't trust them any more because they "snitched" and "ratted out" their fellow. They might be targeted by friends of the person on an ego trip. What happens if the whistle blower isn't believed? What happens if the punishment is just a slap on the wrist? It takes a lot for someone to stand up and say "this person is out of line." It takes a level of confidence and security that most young adults don't have. Most of these kids want to fulfill a dream, and like anyone else, they probably keep their head down and want to keep their nose clean so they can achieve their end goal of graduation and becoming a pilot or intelligence officer or etc..

A valid point was made about if the basic/doolie/cadet can't handle the bullying, then maybe he shouldn't be looking to be part of the military. He may be on the front lines of war directly engaged in battle. That is a hell of a lot more stressful. This is true. It is food to think about and a good point.

But there is something else to think about. The kids are in basic at this point in their life. They are being trained to eventually serve alongside the cadre. They are all supposed to be training to serve on the same side. The one thing they are not expecting is cadre on an ego trip with an agenda. Some of the basics go in with a level of trust, faith and loyalty only to have it ripped apart and tossed aside as if it doesn't matter. They know it is going to be hard, and they know it is going to suck but they really believe that everything done is in their best interest and everyone has their best interest ah heart. Then they encounter the cadre on an ego trip with an agenda. Imagine being that person and then having that happen at age 18 where you are trying so hard to prove yourself and that you belong there. Some will continue to push forward and become far more cynical, negative and distrustful than they ever were. Others will say no, I just can't take it any more and walk away. It breaks my heart.