Women on Submarines

We are talking about officers here, aren’t we? I think your portrayal is unrealistic.

Yes, and the last time I checked officers were allowed to have relationships with other officers. That means to be unrealistic, every officer MUST be a female.

And if they are assigned to the same submarine, surface ship, or aviation squadron, they are no longer career minded. Their careers are over. A career minded officer is not going to have sex on a boat, pure and simple. Not an issue

Not a Navy person here, but wasn't there something about the first surface ship to have women, also had pregnancies occur on the ship. Sorry, but it is laughable to walk down the road that lust and hormones don't happen.

If you noticed, I said ‘sister’ unit. In the Navy with 12 carriers, there will always be several squadrons standing up for deployment and several squadrons just returning from deployment.

Hmm...didn't Sec Gates just say he was reducing the amt of carriers? Wouldn't that mean there will be less to go around?

Additionally, as you stated there will be squadrons standing up and several returning, but you forgot to mention that there will also be members PCSing and separating. Take the one that is "standing up" for deployment and that means they have to get someone else. TRICKLE DOWN EFFECT, it effects every one!

There will always be MQ volunteers standing in line for an opportunity for extra sea time. The airwing staff flies with the squadrons attached to them and maintain full MQs. They are available also. Not an issue at all.

Again, I have no Navy ties, but doesn't the Navy have multiple different airframes? Can you take a EA-6 pilot and send them on a 18 mission? Yes, I understand airwing staff flying, the same is true for the AF. The Wing King keeps his MQ status, however, for bases like Elmendorf the Wing King is not necessarily MQ for the 22, but only be MQ for the 15. Are you stating that Command on a surface ship can pilot every airframe including helos?

Actually, in the Navy, junior officer assignments are simply to the unit, not to a specific billet.

Last time I checked women get pregnant in their 30's and 40's. That would mean they are not JOs.

Personnel are hoisted on and off underway ships and submarines by helicopter routinely.

I never said they didn't do that. My point and other poster's points were/are that women have unique issues that can hamper the mission.

Yes surface ships have done it forever with women, but can you also acknowledge that due to size constraints there are additional issues specific to submarines compared to surface ships.

Can you not acknowledge that heloing a member for medical reasons is a bigger issue on a sub than it is on a surface ship?
 
Pima said:
the last time I checked officers were allowed to have relationships with other officers
But not in the same unit. Therefore, case closed. Back to my original statement that they are no longer ‘career minded’. Not an issue.

Pima said:
Additionally, as you stated there will be squadrons standing up and several returning, but you forgot to mention that there will also be members PCSing and separating. Take the one that is "standing up" for deployment and that means they have to get someone else. TRICKLE DOWN EFFECT, it effects every one!
Again, I have no Navy ties, but doesn't the Navy have multiple different airframes? Can you take a EA-6 pilot and send them on a 18 mission? Yes, I understand airwing staff flying, the same is true for the AF. The Wing King keeps his MQ status, however, for bases like Elmendorf the Wing King is not necessarily MQ for the 22, but only be MQ for the 15. Are you stating that Command on a surface ship can pilot every airframe including helos?
Not quite sure how we got on aviation with a submarine thread but to just answer your question. Of course, one would stay with the same airframe. Just for the F-18, there are probably 24 sea going squadrons for each of the regular Hornet and the Super Hornet. And there are probably 3-4 of each type on each of the 12 air wing staffs. It is not too unrealistic to believe that among all these aviators, that one can be found who is willing and available as a replacement.

Pima said:
Last time I checked women get pregnant in their 30's and 40's. That would mean they are not JOs.
In the Navy, O-4s are JOs. The CO is the only officer billet on a submarine who is not a JO. So it will be a few years before we have to worry about that one.

Pima said:
Yes surface ships have done it forever with women, but can you also acknowledge that due to size constraints there are additional issues specific to submarines compared to surface ships.

Can you not acknowledge that heloing a member for medical reasons is a bigger issue on a sub than it is on a surface ship?

I do not understand your first comment but as to the second, heloing someone off a sub is not, by definition, a bigger issue.
 
My point is that I can support them and not wish for there to be any barriers in their lives any more than I wish for there to be any barriers in my own daughters lives and still accept that there may be legitimate, practical reasons for those barriers to remain in place (at least at present). I trust in the unbiased professionalism of the modern Army leaders making those decisions who are trying to do what is "right," even if it is unfair to some...even f it is unfair to my daughters. I hope that makes sense to you.

I think that is the crux of the two sides. It appears to me that this is 2 different views. One is emotional, one is practical.

Every parent of a DD would want them to have every right and opportunity that their male counterpart has. This is the emotional side.

The practical side says, wait a minute, I also have a DS and I know without a doubt that my DD could not save him. Our DD is 5'1, her brother is 6'3. Her brother would be required to perform at a different physical level than her, solely based on an XY over an XX genetic marker. Expand that thought to he is not her brother, but someone else's DS. His life is in her hands. She is required to perform at a lower level than any male. How as a parent can you feel comfortable knowing someone else's child died because of this inequity? Would you not wonder if their crew mate was a guy that your child may still be alive. This is not about shooting a gun. This is about physical ability.

Here's my scenario:

A car drives up and you are informed that your DS was killed. They explain his heroic actions of staying in the back to never lose sight of the female member. Can you honestly state that you would not harbor any ill feelings to the military for allowing the female in combat because of PC reasons? Yes, to me it is PC to allow females to perform at lower physical levels. Could you attend the funeral as the parent of the female soldier without wondering if she ran at the male regs maybe there wouldn't have been a funeral? Or at least if she qual'd at their rate you and your DD would know that her physical abilities weren't an issue.

Practicality is different than emotion, unfortunately too many believe they are conjoined.

I loved every second of the AF as a wife, but I will not lie, as a wife who's spouse flew fighters it bothered me when he flew with females. I had no problem or fear that they were not the best of the best. I have met many of them, and I know that the ones that did make it into that world were typically 10x better than the guy. My problem is the discrepancy in physical requirements. Bullet is 5'11 and 190 lbs., because of the physical discrepancy for quals., that female has a lower bar to pass and it was my husband's life in their hands. Our DS is 5'9 and 150 lbs, he is intending to fly in the AF. His stature is comparable to many females, but he will be required to perform at a higher level than any female.

I want someone to finally explain and defend to me why women should be allowed to perform at a lower level when they will be responsible for someone's life. I get you have a DD and want her to have her dream, but her dream has life and death impact. Will you feel her dream was worth it when you see the children of the dead family member because she got in at a lower physical test? That is practicality. Death happens even on training missions.

Sorry, but as a woman, I don't by the BS that we can't run as fast or lift as much. Check out the NYC marathon and you will see that the fastest woman beats out men. It is just BS. If you want to play with the boys than you can do it. The worse thing that ever happened to military women was Shannon Faulkner. She could have been the shinning light to prove her sexist the military is, instead she failed. When you are done checking her out check Jeannie Flynn. She understood the weight she carried and she was our shinning moment. The other was Fifi Malachowski, the 1st female Thunderbird.
 
Last edited:
the last time I checked officers were allowed to have relationships with other officers
But not in the same unit. Therefore, case closed. Back to my original statement that they are no longer ‘career minded’. Not an issue.

Are you actually stating that it doesn't happen? That career minded officers don't get lost in the heat of the moment?

If you are, all I can say is Take a Reality Pill! Maybe the AF is filled with officers that have a high libido, but I know of at least 5 in the past 10 yrs that had sexual affairs with member in the same unit. All officers with officers.

Also again it maybe my naivete, but on surface ships aren't there different units. For example, you might fly with ABC squadron, would that preclude you from having a relationship with the opposite sex in XYZ squadron? If not would you not agree that a pregnancy may occur?

Not quite sure how we got on aviation with a submarine thread but to just answer your question

Maybe you should re-read your own posts, here are your words:
And if they are assigned to the same submarine, surface ship, or aviation squadron

Notice you brought up aviation, not me.

Yes surface ships have done it forever with women, but can you also acknowledge that due to size constraints there are additional issues specific to submarines compared to surface ships.

Your response:
I do not understand your first comment but as to the second

You do not understand that I am saying subs because of their size constraints have different issues than surface ships and I am asking you to acknowledge that constraint?

You were Navy, tell me how many berths were in the medical dept? How many docs? Now tell me how many are on a sub?

If women are allowed on subs, shouldn't a female doc be allowed? What happens if she gets pregnant? (She actually would not be in the same unit since she is medical) Can you seriously state that every or any officer can replace her? Or are you saying there is no doc, or that the Navy will not allow female docs on a sub?

You believe in equity, how would it be fair to not allow a female doc on a sub under your premise? Your premise she should be allowed to serve if that is her goal. Under your premise every submariner must fill in the vacancy. Go for it, prove to me how a female doc on a sub can be replaced by a flip of a switch.

I will caveat this by asking if the Navy can force a military member to become a submariner. I know for a fact that the Army cannot force anyone to join Airborne, and I am assuming they can't force anyone to become a submariner.
 
I meant to reply to the original comment earlier...but never got around to it....that was my time to shine! :biggrin:
 
I meant to reply to the original comment earlier...but never got around to it....that was my time to shine! :biggrin:

I agree, it was an opportunity missed by both of us. LITS, when was the last time a submarine went under Africa?
 
Pima said:
Are you actually stating that it doesn't happen? That career minded officers don't get lost in the heat of the moment?

If you are, all I can say is Take a Reality Pill! Maybe the AF is filled with officers that have a high libido, but I know of at least 5 in the past 10 yrs that had sexual affairs with member in the same unit. All officers with officers.

Also again it maybe my naivete, but on surface ships aren't there different units. For example, you might fly with ABC squadron, would that preclude you from having a relationship with the opposite sex in XYZ squadron? If not would you not agree that a pregnancy may occur?

Five episodes in 10 years? And you are going to use this to recommend policy?

No. If ABC squadron and XYZ squadron are assigned to the same ship, relationships between individuals in both squadrons are prohibited. A pregnancy remains a career ender for a career minded individual.

Pima said:
Or are you saying there is no doc, or that the Navy will not allow female docs on a sub?
MDs are not a part of ship’s company of a submarine so this is not an issue. There are enlisted corpsmen. I imagine women corpsmen will become a part of the new directive eventually.
 
Five episodes in 10 years? And you are going to use this to recommend policy?

You do realize AF squadrons are not the size of Navy surface ships, right? Additionally, I was talking about high ups...COMMANDERS, not the company grade level.

No. If ABC squadron and XYZ squadron are assigned to the same ship, relationships between individuals in both squadrons are prohibited. A pregnancy remains a career ender for a career minded individual.

As I have stated multiple times, I am not related to the Navy, but I thought a carrier has @ 5000 service members, basically the same size as an AF base. My assumption would be that there are multiple airframes with multiple squadrons. In that quote you are stating ABC member cannot date XYZ member. In other words ABC who flies helos cannot date XYZ who flies EA-6's, end of subject, period, dot. Am I correct? If that is your position/belief can you honestly look anyone in the face and say it doesn't ever happen without laughing your Arse off of your chair? If so, I have a great bridge to sell you in NYC, trust me I can get it for you at a song.

MDs are not a part of ship’s company of a submarine so this is not an issue.

Explain further please. Again I have no Navy relation. However, in my silly naivete, does it really matter where they rack and stack regarding the ship's company? Did I miss something in translation? The doc is a female what does being a part of ship's company have anything to do with pregnancy? A female doc can get pregnant, right? If she does on a sub she would be forced to leave, correct?

On the flip side, are you stating that subs only have enlisted corpsmen and no docs which means the doc issue is a non-player? Again, not Navy, so this is educational to me.
 
Pima said:
You do realize AF squadrons are not the size of Navy surface ships, right? Additionally, I was talking about high ups...COMMANDERS, not the company grade level.
It doesn’t matter. How can you use the number of times a rule or regulation is violated as a benchmark of the necessity of the rule. A good analogy would be that we are just going to quit building and maintaining highways because people are only going to speed and break the law on them.

Pima said:
In other words ABC who flies helos cannot date XYZ who flies EA-6's, end of subject, period, dot. Am I correct?
You got it.


Pima said:
If that is your position/belief can you honestly look anyone in the face and say it doesn't ever happen without laughing your Arse off of your chair? If so, I have a great bridge to sell you in NYC, trust me I can get it for you at a song.
It’s not my position, it is the Navy position. Do it and you will get caught. Don’t think that your best friend who just happens to be one number below you in the skipper’s fit rep pecking order won’t turn you in just so he can move into your slot. Guaranteed Captain or Admiral’s Mast. Guaranteed Letter of Reprimend. Guaranteed end of career. He or she had better damn well be good looking.

Pima said:
are you stating that subs only have enlisted corpsmen and no docs which means the doc issue is a non-player?
Yes. All situations requiring a MDs attention will be medivaced to either a shore base or a large combatant with a doctor (carrier or amphib).
 
"Love boats" happen, and not everyone gets caught. That may not be "official policy" but it is common knowledge.
 
Curiosity, can you explain how the system works. I am very intrigued by how this works. I am taking the leap that the corpsmen are equivalent to nurses, but a nurse is not the same as a doc when it comes to appendicitis. For example, one marker in women regarding this ruling is a GYN issue.

Wouldn't a corpsman mean they could miss issues a doc would pick up on? I am just looking back 20 yrs in the military as a dependent, and I can guarantee you that I never went to the Flight Doc unless I ran out of options.

I am truly confused here regarding the medical situation on a sub. Not to be vulgar, but I have had GYN issues which required tests to be performed before a script could be given. You are actually saying they have the equipment, but no DOC and the corpsman is the one that prescribes the meds. AGAIN...WOMAN here, we are not talking about strep throat and take amoxicillan or you have eczema from the dry air, here's an ointment.
 
Of course. But on the enlisted side. The wardrooms are too tight for people to get away with it without either unofficial command 'endorsement' or secrecy to the point that nothing happens on board. For a skipper to enforce an enlisted fraternization policy he must have full support of the goat locker which is sometimes more difficult than not.
 
I am taking the leap that the corpsmen are equivalent to nurses.

Hospital corpsmen are enlisted medical technicians. They are equivalent to USAF med techs or Army medics, not nurses. Most ships do not carry a doctor, save for carriers and amphibious warfare ships (where there is a large contingent of USMC people). As Mongo said, an issue requiring a doctor would necessitate an evacuation to where one is present. Infantry units don't have a doctor with them, either, with the medic performing the "first responder"/emergency treatment duties until the casualty can be evacuated to an aid station/hospital/whatever. It is not that absurd that most operating units do not carry a medical doctor with them into action. Regarding the issue of OB/GYN problems, I'm sure there will be a female corpsman aboard subs when women start serving on them...if it is something beyond the scope of the corpsman, the sailor gets evacuated.

Regarding meds: There are some medications that can be dispersed while the ship/sub (with no physician) is underway (most likely after a radio consultation with the medical department on the carrier), including some narcotics (from my Navy office mate, a former SWO), but it is limited. Anything serious or unique would require a visit to the carrier.

KP2001 is the one to ask on this.
 
Last edited:
I really would love to live in your world. The world that officers stop themselves from their heart or physical attraction because it is a career ender, but I have to go with LITS it happens, might not be caught, but it happens.

The people that I alluded to before (the 5) got caught. Yet, there were many more I know of. I know officers who married enlisted members 90 days after they separated.

You are truly delusional to believe that where there is a will there isn't a way.

OBTW you do realize there are other places for clandestine meetings than a wardroom? And you also understand Command is the equivalent of a parent. it is not likely the siblings will fink out each other to the folks.

Sprog,

My curiosity is medical testing from a female standpoint. There is no way to get around this, but to be blunt, women have a higher rate of tract/bladder infections. To make a positive determination if it is, you need to run specific tests. I am curious if a sub has the ability to run these tests. UTI and Bladder do not necessarily have the same script, however the symptoms are very similar.

Also, if I am correct the female corpsman from what I understand would be enlisted. Wouldn't that cause a berthing issue in the enlisted quarters.

My point is for every defense you give of why they should, you open a new field of questions.

No docs on the sub...okay, because only enlisted are in that field. You comply that women should be allowed as medics. WITH YOU. Now the question is where do you berth the female corpsman who is enlisted?

Want woman on a sub, think it through to the nitty gritty. Explain to me how a female officer can serve, but not a female enlisted.
 
Last edited:
Now the question is where do you berth the female corpsman who is enlisted?

On the submarine.:shake:

I'm not advocating one point or another, just clarifying about how medical operations go on at sea. Which, incidently, is what you asked about. Most surface ships don't have doctors on them either, and they have women aboard. Amazingly, UTIs or other OB/GYN issues have not caused the downfall of our fleet, and we still have the most powerful navy in the world. I'm guessing the evacuation procedures needed to test a female sailor suspected of having a severe UTI or whatever else are the same for the male sailor who, let's say, develops an infected gall bladder. They get them off of the ship/submarine, and take them to the carrier/amphib or whatever hospital is closest.
 
Pima said:
I am taking the leap that the corpsmen are equivalent to nurses, but a nurse is not the same as a doc when it comes to appendicitis. For example, one marker in women regarding this ruling is a GYN issue.
To further amplify what sprog posted, the Navy has a program for senior experienced top notch corpsmen where they receive extensive further training and are designated Independent Duty Corpsmen. All ships that don’t have a doctor assigned will have at least one. The closest comparison in the civilian world would be a Physician’s Assistant. They can prescribe a wider variety of medications and yes, they can perform minor surgery, including appendectomies, probably only as a last resort. Since women have been assigned to surface combatants for 25 years, the system is already in place. I don’t know if the male IDCs are trained in female issues or if there are female IDCs on every ship with women assigned, which I doubt. I honestly don't think there is anything in the female sailor's bill of rights which guarantees they can only be seen by corpsmen of the same sex.

Pima said:
I really would love to live in your world. ……………You are truly delusional
Does the ad holmium argument mean that you have no further legitimate discussion? Again I don’t quite grasp your logic. We should not have rules and regulations or implement policieswhich people are prone to break? Kind of the first derivitive of the prisoners guarding the jail, isn't it?


Pima said:
OBTW you do realize there are other places for clandestine meetings than a wardroom?
‘Wardroom’ is the common vernacular for the officer contingent as a whole.

Pima said:
And you also understand Command is the equivalent of a parent. it is not likely the siblings will fink out each other to the folks.
LOL. "I really would love to live in your world. ……………You are truly delusional. I have a great bridge to sell you in NYC, trust me I can get it for you at a song."
 
Last edited:
I am not so sure why this discussion has turned into a debate purely about sailors having intimate contact with each other on board submarines. Hasn't that been going on for as long as there have been submarines? :rolleyes:
 
Back
Top