Women on Submarines

[Gray Hog]

Am I the only one who finds it more than a little ironic that this [latest portion of the] discussion is about spouses' concerns regarding the potential for extramarital affairs on the part of their service members while they are deployed/at sea? Didn't it used to be the other way around? Isn't it still primarily the other way around? Whatever happened to Jody (or Jodie)?!

 

[Pima]

Are you suggesting that the United States Navy should adopt a submarine force manning policy that appeases potential insecure spouses who do not like the idea of their husbands serving in a professional capacity with female sailors? This should be their consideration?

Absolutely, equivocally not! What I am stating is that the spouse issue is a nitty gritty issue. That spouses like it or not are also a part of the equation regarding many military members, AND the best commander understands their impact on the AD member.

I was on active duty once upon a time, and I say "who cares," but whatever. My advice to one of these hypothetical insecure spouses is to suck it up and try trusting your husband. If that is impossible, maybe it's time to re-think your marriage. Your husband is a professional sailor, he has a mission to accomplish, and his female shipmate is also a professional. They are both out there to accomplish a mission, not to play hanky panky. End of story.

Were you married when you were AD once upon a time? Were you in a leadership position? To say Suck it up to a wife who is left behind raising your children miles away from their family support system is sad. These wives are left alone, many give birth to the AD members child without the AD member, and your response is to suck it up? Have you for one second thought about a military spouse sacrifices a lot to let the AD member have their dream? Suck it up is offensive to every military wife that stands behind their AD spouse.

As an AD member your job is to protect the country, we accept that. We take pride in your service. We move, and give up careers so you, the AD member can have your dream. Your response is too bad, so sad, suck it up because you don't matter. WOW. I am glad I am Bullet's wife, because once upon a time when he served (retired 20 mos ago as an O5), he understood that his best performing airmen were those who had wives on board. He understood the fact that family has an impact on a soldier/sailor/airmen's performance.

I guess maybe that is an AF/NAVY/ARMY difference. AF places an emphasis on family...wife 9 mos pregnant your arse is staying put. When I was 9 mos pregnant with DS and he was with the 82nd, they sent him TDY 2 days before my due date and told him we will TRY to get you back if we get a call. I was truly spoiled as an AF wife of 20 yrs. because spouses did mean something. Obviously, in your Navy perspective, spouses should be issued like G-suits!.

I would like to also state that my best experience as a spouse was when he was with the 82nd. That experience changed me forever. It taught me that I can change a tire by myself (AF wives typically have the car towed). It taught me that I needed to know where the shut off valve for the water is. It taught me I do not need a man to survive.

It also taught me that I am different, and there are women and marriages that cannot survive like Bullet and I.

Let me state this, any woman who has a security issue about their husband serving on a sub with women needs to address her marriage. In no way shape or form do I believe that a man will cheat on their spouse just because a woman is there. That being said, I am pretty sure posters know I am a secure woman with a great spouse which allows me this ability. Yet at the same time after 20 yrs in the AF, I can tell you that insecure women/wives exist and they cause issues not only within the squadron, but more importantly with their spouse's performance.

I find ironic that on this thread I am being condemned for my female attitude, i.e. too weak, but on another thread I am being condemned for being too harsh.

 

[sprog]

Were you married when you were AD once upon a time? Were you in a leadership position?
1) No, by choice. 2)Yes.

We move, and give up careers so you, the AD member can have your dream.

Do you want a cookie? This was a choice you made. The Armed Forces exist to protect the US and to fight her wars. If you choose a career in them, hardships are bound to occur. Service members suck it up all the time, and spouses have to as well. If the spouse is not willing to do that, then the service member should separate or the couple should divorce. The military is not a family services agency. I would think, Pima, that you would know that more than anyone. I stand by my earlier comment....suck it up

In no way shape or form do I believe that a man will cheat on their spouse just because a woman is there.

Then why all the nonsense with the "what will the submariners' wives think?" question?

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Am I the only one who feels like puking?

 

[Pima]

So you WEREN'T MARRIED? Correct?

No marriage, I assume no children. Your perspective regarding an AD member is based from a military member without dependents.

This explains a lot regarding your position because you never left a spouse behind who had the AC die in the house the day after you left. Or the day after you left your 15 mos child was diagnosed with croop and she had to sleep on the floor to make sure they didn't stop breathing. You never had to experience hiding the fact from your children your own fears, that there will be a knock on the door. You never had to experience filling out a form from the squadron that is created only for the what if scenario. You never had to think about how your choice to serve had impact on those who truly love you, not because they gave birth to you, but because they fell in love with you.

I had a very successful career that I gave up for Bullet. I do not regret it in the least bit. His career allowed me to stay at home, but his career also meant that I was alone at home without him. I sat in a church pew without him when our youngest received a holy sacrament. Our children paid the price for his dream.

I walked down the aisle knowing Bullet could die, I accepted that. I got the fact that I would be the mistress and the military was his wife. Excuse me for not thinking about how it would effect my life and our kids lives. Sorry, I didn't get when I had him put that engagement ring on my finger I didn't comprehend he would miss 80% of their halloweens, or that for Thanksgiving I would be celebrating it with friends, no husband or family. NOBODY gave me that note.

If you choose a career in them, hardships are bound to occur. Service members suck it up all the time, and spouses have to as well. If the spouse is not willing to do that, then the service member should separate or the couple should divorce

A. Hardships will occur. No argument --- remind me again why the hardship occurs...did the spouse know how often it would occur when she said I do?
B. Service families will have to suck it up. No argument--- can you remind me again when the baby said I want to not see my Mom or Dad for a yr? Can you also tell me why I was so stupid not to think about this when I walked down the aisle? Did I miss a V-8 moment?
C. Spouse NOT willing to do it and the service member should separate or divorce illustrates you have never been truly in love.

Have to ask Sprog what branch you were in? The AF is one branch that has always placed family on the priority list, your comment of "The military is not a family services agency", they have done a great job of combining military life and family life. My family is not only blood relations, but also the military. Actually, I have spent more holidays, birthdays, special occasions with them then my own family.

One other question, you stated you were command/leadership position, if you have that family is a non player mentality, how did you feel when someone in your command called in and said won't be at work today my wife had our baby?

Then why all the nonsense with the "what will the submariners' wives think?" question

Finally, just because I believe Bullet would never cheat on me, that doesn't mean I am so ignorant or arrogant to believe it is not an issue in other marriages. I am a wife who spent 20 yrs as an AD spouse, trust me it isn't nonsense in everyone's mind. Nonsense to you and me, maybe, but there will be at least one marriage that this is an issue. Thus, it can become a bigger issue at sea. The enlisted member will show issues and it will trickle up. It will become an issue on a sub with only 150+/- members. Everyone will know about it. Heck one member sneezes and the whole sub says G Bless you, but you believe that a marital issue will never bubble up.

If you do, I have a great piece of land in Florida, granted you will need to bring in truck loads of dirt because of the water table, and you might need special permits due to environmental issues, but just trust me you will be the first and because of that you will reap tons of money. OBTW don't worry the crocs will leave as soon as you start building!

Finally, NO SPOUSE wants a COOKIE, we want love and respect. I am sorry you see spouses like dogs. Bullet and I give cookies to our dogs for going to the bathroom outside. That is their reward for following our house rules, thanks for lowering military spouses to level of a dog.:

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Pima - please don't turn this into a pissing contest about the *hardships* that wives and dependents endure. I have a pocketful of stories about my mother that pale in comparision to yours. I know because I was there for most of them. No pity party from me.

Honestly - it would be a sad time in America when the DOD took wives into consideration for any mission.
Find another argument.

 

[sprog]

Am I the only one who feels like puking?

No. I threw up a little bit at the last one.

 

[sprog]

So you WEREN'T MARRIED? Correct?

No marriage, I assume no children. Your perspective regarding an AD member is based from a military member without dependents.

This explains a lot regarding your position because you never left a spouse behind who had the AC die in the house the day after you left. Or the day after you left your 15 mos child was diagnosed with croop and she had to sleep on the floor to make sure they didn't stop breathing. You never had to experience hiding the fact from your children your own fears, that there will be a knock on the door. You never had to experience filling out a form from the squadron that is created only for the what if scenario. You never had to think about how your choice to serve had impact on those who truly love you, not because they gave birth to you, but because they fell in love with you.

I had a very successful career that I gave up for Bullet. I do not regret it in the least bit. His career allowed me to stay at home, but his career also meant that I was alone at home without him. I sat in a church pew without him when our youngest received a holy sacrament. Our children paid the price for his dream.

I walked down the aisle knowing Bullet could die, I accepted that. I got the fact that I would be the mistress and the military was his wife. Excuse me for not thinking about how it would effect my life and our kids lives. Sorry, I didn't get when I had him put that engagement ring on my finger I didn't comprehend he would miss 80% of their halloweens, or that for Thanksgiving I would be celebrating it with friends, no husband or family. NOBODY gave me that note.



A. Hardships will occur. No argument --- remind me again why the hardship occurs...did the spouse know how often it would occur when she said I do?
B. Service families will have to suck it up. No argument--- can you remind me again when the baby said I want to not see my Mom or Dad for a yr? Can you also tell me why I was so stupid not to think about this when I walked down the aisle? Did I miss a V-8 moment?
C. Spouse NOT willing to do it and the service member should separate or divorce illustrates you have never been truly in love.

Have to ask Sprog what branch you were in? The AF is one branch that has always placed family on the priority list, your comment of "The military is not a family services agency", they have done a great job of combining military life and family life. My family is not only blood relations, but also the military. Actually, I have spent more holidays, birthdays, special occasions with them then my own family.

One other question, you stated you were command/leadership position, if you have that family is a non player mentality, how did you feel when someone in your command called in and said won't be at work today my wife had our baby?


Finally, just because I believe Bullet would never cheat on me, that doesn't mean I am so ignorant or arrogant to believe it is not an issue in other marriages. I am a wife who spent 20 yrs as an AD spouse, trust me it isn't nonsense in everyone's mind. Nonsense to you and me, maybe, but there will be at least one marriage that this is an issue. Thus, it can become a bigger issue at sea. The enlisted member will show issues and it will trickle up. It will become an issue on a sub with only 150+/- members. Everyone will know about it. Heck one member sneezes and the whole sub says G Bless you, but you believe that a marital issue will never bubble up.

If you do, I have a great piece of land in Florida, granted you will need to bring in truck loads of dirt because of the water table, and you might need special permits due to environmental issues, but just trust me you will be the first and because of that you will reap tons of money. OBTW don't worry the crocs will leave as soon as you start building!

Finally, NO SPOUSE wants a COOKIE, we want love and respect. I am sorry you see spouses like dogs. Bullet and I give cookies to our dogs for going to the bathroom outside. That is their reward for following our house rules, thanks for lowering military spouses to level of a dog.:

Tell it to Oprah.

 

[Pima]

Jam.

I 1000% agree it should not go down the road of wives. I do not believe at all that the military should place family issues in a combat situation.

My feathers were ruffled because I felt that the military family does not play an issue in the members life.

Sorry, but the COOKIE comment hit me. Additionally, I feel a great leader gets that personnel will have personal issues.

Back on topic and enough of this BS (Thank you JAM for getting us on track). Women should serve in every manner, but IMHO, we are doing tit for tat. We are not truthfully acknowledging how to solve the oppositions concern.

For example, as Mongo stated an E6/7 will bunk with officers. How can this situation guarantee no fraternization? Please don't say they only sleep, so it is not an issue. Be honest and realistic that chances are a friendship will be created.

Sprog

Tell it to Oprah.

Hate to tell you, but I don't watch Oprah, haven't for at least 20 yrs ( our 1st was born 20 yrs ago). I can't begin to express how disgusting, condescending, chauvinistic, and rude that comment was. I will give you the chance to clarify that I have read it wrong, because I know that forums can be taken out of context. However, silence from you means I did not take it out of context.

Have to say, you are the first military member I have met that has a vitriolic response to women.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Honestly - it would be a sad time in America when the DOD took wives into consideration for any mission.
Find another argument.

Interesting you should say this. I was recently in a joint school. The Marines were all in all surprised, if not disgusted by the Army's policy on deployments and families....they seemed to think that the Army was soft.

It was worth it to sit back and watch them go back and forth.

If you don't think the Dept. of Defense doesn't consider families... and that this consideration affects deployments, and in some way, missions, you are...wrong. To varying degrees obviously. But retention is important, especially in wartime, and unhappy servicemembers soon learn their skills are valued to a greater degree in other places.

 

[Pima]

Retention is a big issue, and anyone who believes that the spouse in good economic times doesn't play a role in staying in for the AD is a FOOL.

 

[Mongo]

For example, as Mongo stated an E6/7 will bunk with officers. How can this situation guarantee no fraternization? Please don't say they only sleep, so it is not an issue. Be honest and realistic that chances are a friendship will be created.

Last December I shared a bus ride and for 10 hours I was the seatmate of a retired Navy (naval) officer who had not only commanded three submarines but had been the commander of an entire SSBN squadron. When I presented him with my fraternization concerns exactly as per Pima, he laughed. His response was that when your first "stateroom" is between two torpedoes, what are they going to do, accuse you of fraternizing with every torpedoman on the boat. Subs are different. Hard for surface Navy and airdales to understand. Almost impossible for outsiders, especially those with a closed mind.

OBTW, his opinion was that this decision was long overdue.

My only concern is lifting the ban on 'don't ask, don't tell, prohibiting smoking on board, and bringing on females all concurrently. And before someone starts off on a tangent, this is a tongue in cheek comment.

 

[Pima]

Mongo,

My colleague was a sub commander, I worked with him for 5 yrs., day in day out. During a XMAS party he illustrated to Bullet and myself how small his berth was as a Commander of the sub(O6 rank). I was floored. It was incredibly tiny. I think sq footage it would be about 80.

He too felt the same about women serving. To him gender meant nothing. However, he acknowledged that berthing is the big issue. He felt that fraternization may be an issue based purely on the fact that there are few officers and it opens an issue if the female E6/7 bunked with the female officers gets a higher EER or EPR from the female officer than the E6/7 Male member.

PERCEPTION.

 

[sprog]

Have to say, you are the first military member I have met that has a vitriolic response to women.

Not to women Pima, just to the drivel you posted. I'm on the side of integrating submarines with women sailors, you are the one who feels that the Navy should not open this opportunity up to them. My Oprah comment was in response to the overly emotional tripe that you included in your response to my earlier post. Great for TV ratings, but otherwise worthless. It had nothing to do with gender. Men watch Oprah too. In fact, I love her show. I'll leave it at that. I'm not going to further address your allegations of me being a chauvinist, because it is beneath me.

I was USAF. Minuteman III Missileer.

I'm done here.

 

[Pima]

Excuse me, but I believe WOMEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO SERVE IN EVERY MILITARY ASPECT!

Silly me, I just want it to be done when every issue has been addressed! I am a woman, and I don't want my colleagues believe in any manner that I got the position because I have 2 X chromosomes. I want sexual gender to be a non-issue in every single branch, subs, boats, fighters or tanks.

Women are not a weaker sex and I want the illusion they are to be removed completely. I want men to say CRAP she is a better shot then me, or Sh*t she beat my run time. I do not and will not ever believe that women are a weaker sex. This is why I also feel that if a woman can meet the male PFA for Rangers or Seals she should be allowed. My only caveat is that from a medical standpoint she must be willing to take an additional step regarding reproductive issues. If she can shoot from the mens tee she should be able to play with the men.

That being said a sub is not comparable to any AF assignment. In the AF you are not confined for months on end with a small select group. In a sub you are. On top of that your living arrangements 24/7 are pre-set. As a missileer how many months in a row did you live apart from your family? KEY WORD MONTHS

In fact, I love her show

Glad you and your male friends watch Oprah..have to ask how on AD you do it because she is on daytime tv! Last time I checked duty day hours would mean you need to TIVO her. RHNYC on Bravo is much better if you are talking TIVO,

 

[SamAca10]

Not to women Pima, just to the drivel you posted. I'm on the side of integrating submarines with women sailors, you are the one who feels that the Navy should not open this opportunity up to them. My Oprah comment was in response to the overly emotional tripe that you included in your response to my earlier post. Great for TV ratings, but otherwise worthless. It had nothing to do with gender. Men watch Oprah too. In fact, I love her show. I'll leave it at that. I'm not going to further address your allegations of me being a chauvinist, because it is beneath me.

I was USAF. Minuteman III Missileer.

I'm done here.

I know from past posts that you went to VMI, did AFROTC and chose missileer, correct? Got out at the 5 year bench mark? Well, no surprise there considering you were in scenic ND

Sprog, though I may be young, my father served as an enlisted man in the AF. I also have been told things by a LOT of the veterans who come and eat at the place that I work (still in highschool). From what I have seen, Family is the NUMBER ONE thing in the military for the more senior members, enlisted and officer alike.

Please do not take offense, but I think you are just bitter over choosing missilleer.

Last December I shared a bus ride and for 10 hours I was the seatmate of a retired Navy (naval) officer who had not only commanded three submarines but had been the commander of an entire SSBN squadron. When I presented him with my fraternization concerns exactly as per Pima, he laughed. His response was that when your first "stateroom" is between two torpedoes, what are they going to do, accuse you of fraternizing with every torpedoman on the boat. Subs are different. Hard for surface Navy and airdales to understand. Almost impossible for outsiders, especially those with a closed mind.

OBTW, his opinion was that this decision was long overdue.

My only concern is lifting the ban on 'don't ask, don't tell, prohibiting smoking on board, and bringing on females all concurrently. And before someone starts off on a tangent, this is a tongue in cheek comment.

I've read a few of your posts on here Mongo, and what are your qualifications? Did you serve aboard a submarine? What type? You aren't willing to talk logistical issues on a submarine. Not tactical or strategic, mind you. Logistic. Did you serve aboard a sub? Were you in a leadership position? Why should I believe what you are saying? (my English teacher always tells us to look at WHO is writing something in addition to WHY they are writing it).

Retention is a big issue, and anyone who believes that the spouse in good economic times doesn't play a role in staying in for the AD is a FOOL.

Agreed. The military wants the best people possible. I agree with you on a lot of these aspects, PIMA.

Personally, I think it might be better to have only male and only female crews for submarines. It would clear up much of these debates, would it not?

Interesting you should say this. I was recently in a joint school. The Marines were all in all surprised, if not disgusted by the Army's policy on deployments and families....they seemed to think that the Army was soft.

It was worth it to sit back and watch them go back and forth.

If you don't think the Dept. of Defense doesn't consider families... and that this consideration affects deployments, and in some way, missions, you are...wrong. To varying degrees obviously. But retention is important, especially in wartime, and unhappy servicemembers soon learn their skills are valued to a greater degree in other places.

What is the Coast Guard's position on families? How many times do you get to go to joint schools?

 

[Just_A_Mom]

LITS - Not in the context of this thread and discussion.
Sam - your post is one of the most disrespectful posts I have read. Way to offend someone and then tell them not to take offense.
Pima - the Navy has the berthing issue worked out, it's a non-issue.

This entire thread has gotten ridiculous.

 

[Mongo]

Family is the NUMBER ONE thing in the military

Sam, exactly what does this mean to you?

 

[Pima]

JAM,


I mean this in total respect, but on this thread I have read different berthing issues.

Please clarify with your knowledge what the berthing issue is?

 

[SamAca10]

Sam, exactly what does this mean to you?

Well, the military as a whole is a tight-knit community...especially the support groups for when the AD member is gone. But I think the most successful people in the military have a family to support them. Additionally, after one passes, it isn't the military that is going to be visiting your grave to leave flowers. "Spend all your time on the job, and that's all you'll have."

You should never place your career over your family, no matter what field your in. Instead, you need to find the balance between them. I'm sure PIMA knows all of this already though.