USAFA Cheating Scandal

scoutpilot said:
But that's just it. I am not talking about these particular cases. I'm talking about the system as a whole.
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That is a much bigger topic and I can see that from a larger perspective that there would be concerns about how the honor system works.

But let me ask you this, as an experienced honor officer, does the demand for certain sanctions from outsiders and pressure to get to a conclusion ever undermine the integrity of the honor boards? I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but my thought is that we would not want outside pressures to influence the decision making of the boards. That is part of my argument here, to let these boards try to make findings based upon reasoned discussion, rather than expediency and the desire to satiate those seeking certain sanctions.
 
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falconfamily said:
That is a much bigger topic and I can see that from a larger perspective that there would be concerns about how the honor system works.

But let me ask you this, as an experienced honor officer, does the demand for certain sanctions from outsiders and pressure to get to a conclusion ever undermine the integrity of the honor boards? I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but my thought is that we would not want outside pressures to influence the decision making of the boards. That is part of my argument here, to let these boards try to make findings based upon reasoned discussion, rather than expediency and the desire to satiate those seeking certain sanctions.
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Cadets, by and large, do not feel any outside pressures to complete the boards. When I was on BDE Honor Staff, the push was always to get it right, not to get it done. Where the problem comes in is when cadets find their peers to have violated the code, sometimes quite egregiously, and feel that their power to run the Honor System is stripped away by senior officers who give those who've been "Found" a pass for what they feel are political or personal reasons.
 
scoutpilot said:
Cadets, by and large, do not feel any outside pressures to complete the boards. When I was on BDE Honor Staff, the push was always to get it right, not to get it done. Where the problem comes in is when cadets find their peers to have violated the code, sometimes quite egregiously, and feel that their power to run the Honor System is stripped away by senior officers who give those who've been "Found" a pass for what they feel are political or personal reasons.
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I am heartened to understand that the boards strive to get it right. As for the idea that a senior officer might intervene in a finding, considering the number of panels and boards that are being conducted at USAFA, that might well be the case with certain panels (that is a different problem all together), but I cannot imagine that would be the case with all of them since I would assume that these boards are striving to get it right. Thank you for your thoughts on this.
 
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scoutpilot said:
But when it's a matter of a recommendation on whether a cadet should stay after dishonorable behavior, the involvement at that level carries a far greater likelihood that friendship and personal feelings (both for and against) a cadet can weigh in.
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ScoutPilot - I am a little concerned that you have some posts in this thread emphasizing "toleration", the different aspects of the 3 SA codes (USAFA, USMA, and USNA) and how toleration is not allowed at any of the 3 institutions but you say above that the final punishment/disposition to a cadet/midshipman can be influenced by friendship and personal feelings. Are you insinuating that cadets (Honor Boards) let friendship get in the way of not tolerating as it relates to the honor code(s) punishment?
 
Scratcher said:
ScoutPilot - I am a little concerned that you have some posts in this thread emphasizing "toleration", the different aspects of the 3 SA codes (USAFA, USMA, and USNA) and how toleration is not allowed at any of the 3 institutions but you say above that the final punishment/disposition to a cadet/midshipman can be influenced by friendship and personal feelings. Are you insinuating that cadets (Honor Boards) let friendship get in the way of not tolerating as it relates to the honor code(s) punishment?
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You're forgetting the USCGA. We are a SA you know.
 
Scratcher said:
ScoutPilot - I am a little concerned that you have some posts in this thread emphasizing "toleration", the different aspects of the 3 SA codes (USAFA, USMA, and USNA) and how toleration is not allowed at any of the 3 institutions but you say above that the final punishment/disposition to a cadet/midshipman can be influenced by friendship and personal feelings. Are you insinuating that cadets (Honor Boards) let friendship get in the way of not tolerating as it relates to the honor code(s) punishment?
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No, on several counts. For one, not all SAs prohibit toleration in their honor code/"concept" (see: USNA).

Secondly, that's not at all what I was insinuating, nor was it what I said. My point was that under the USAFA system, if a cadet admits to his or her offense, not self-reports but merely admits, his or her own squadron can vote on whether or not to retain the cadet. That is a system that is rigged for friendships and allegiances to influence the outcome for an admittedly dishonorable cadet.
 
scoutpilot said:
No, on several counts. For one, not all SAs prohibit toleration in their honor code/"concept" (see: USNA).

Secondly, that's not at all what I was insinuating, nor was it what I said. My point was that under the USAFA system, if a cadet admits to his or her offense, not self-reports but merely admits, his or her own squadron can vote on whether or not to retain the cadet. That is a system that is rigged for friendships and allegiances to influence the outcome for an admittedly dishonorable cadet.
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Let's be clear here, to say that it can happen is not to say that it did happen. Since this incident involves mostly first year cadets, I am not sure there is much of a relationship with the upperclass cadets and the senior officers who comprise the honor panels and boards. In prior instances at various SA's, such favoritism involved upperclassmen, not first year cadets who have no power base.
 
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SamAca10 said:
You're forgetting the USCGA. We are a SA you know.
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Ok. But I was saying that ScoutPilot commented on Service Academies' Honor Codes and the 3 Service Academies that he mentioned were USAFA, USMA and USNA. That was not meant to be an all inclusive statement but a statement about the current conversation.
 
scoutpilot said:
No, on several counts. For one, not all SAs prohibit toleration in their honor code/"concept" (see: USNA).

Secondly, that's not at all what I was insinuating, nor was it what I said. My point was that under the USAFA system, if a cadet admits to his or her offense, not self-reports but merely admits, his or her own squadron can vote on whether or not to retain the cadet. That is a system that is rigged for friendships and allegiances to influence the outcome for an admittedly dishonorable cadet.
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You are saying that USAFA cadets will let friendships and allegiances influence the outcome and allow a dishonorable cadet to stay which is in effect saying that they would "tolerate" their friend's dishonor because they are their friend?

I don't want to put words into you mouth but that is the way I am understanding your words.
 
Scratcher said:
You are saying that USAFA cadets will let friendships and allegiances influence the outcome and allow a dishonorable cadet to stay which is in effect saying that they would "tolerate" their friend's dishonor because they are their friend?

I don't want to put words into you mouth but that is the way I am understanding your words.
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If you want to consider that "toleration" then go for it, but it's a loose extension of the toleration clause at best.

Either way you slice it, the system is rigged for bad outcomes.
 
2. The code stipulates "or tolerate among us," which is a much weaker version of USMA's toleration clause, though admittedly better than USNA's lack of the same.J
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Scoutpilot....going from my own intuition I'm guessing you aren't trying to "pick a fight" with other SA's...but if that is truly the case, then I highly recommend you strike the use of the word "better." I don't like to think USNA's honor concept is "better" or "worse" than any other SAs -- it's different.

Aren't we suppose to be wearing purple? I really hate the use of the word "better" when it comes to dealing with military services or service academies.
 
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I barely understand the argument anymore.

Can't everyone just agree to disagree? :shake:
 
scoutpilot said:
Secondly, that's not at all what I was insinuating, nor was it what I said. My point was that under the USAFA system, if a cadet admits to his or her offense, not self-reports but merely admits, his or her own squadron can vote on whether or not to retain the cadet. That is a system that is rigged for friendships and allegiances to influence the outcome for an admittedly dishonorable cadet.
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How do you see this? The USAFA Honor System isn't American Idol...
 
raimius said:
How do you see this? The USAFA Honor System isn't American Idol...
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It doesn't have to be. All it has to be is a situation where people in the squadron, especially the chain of command, feel a great friendship or great disdain for a certain individual, and that feeling will inevitably influence their decision-making.
 
jadler03 said:
Scoutpilot....going from my own intuition I'm guessing you aren't trying to "pick a fight" with other SA's...but if that is truly the case, then I highly recommend you strike the use of the word "better." I don't like to think USNA's honor concept is "better" or "worse" than any other SAs -- it's different.

Aren't we suppose to be wearing purple? I really hate the use of the word "better" when it comes to dealing with military services or service academies.
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No, I'm not trying to pick a fight. But that doesn't mean I don't honestly believe that USMA's honor code is better than USNA's honor concept. It is. It doesn't give people the leeway to turn a blind eye to honor violations, because it ties everyone's honor together. USNA's "concept" doesn't do that, and I think that's a shame. While the honor systems are all tough to live under, USMA cadets have long been proud of the fact that they're held to a higher standard.

In the new spirit of "jointness" we are all supposed to be purple-minded. But their are still the realities of better and worse. The Naval Academy tradition of Herndon is, in my opinion, a better tradition than the simple recognition USMA does. The Marines land on beaches better than the Army. The Army does armored warfare better than the Marines. The Navy flies overwater better than the Air Force. Et cetera and so forth. There are always strengths and weaknesses, and I believe the chosen honor codes/concepts are one of them.
 
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Let's not drift off into the idea that this topic is about one service academy versus another with respect to the honor system. Let us also not get in to a game of gotcha with semantics, otherwise we could spend days disecting how something is said rather than what is said.

We all care about the ideal of honor at the SA's. None of us like what happened. But where many of us differ is with respect to our personal beliefs and the perception of how USAFA leadership is handling this situation. Some question the current, known course of action, there is an underlying sense of cynicism, which is understandable. The system is not perfect, people make mistakes, the boards can be stilted by favoritism. Yet there are those of us who want to trust the judgement of the USAFA leadership, and believe that remediation is a valid option if the boards/panels decide that it is appropriate to do so when they weigh the facts of the case.

Interestingly enough, it appears that it is about a 50-50 sentiment on this thread regarding this topic. So there is really no majority view on this. Given that fact, it is understandable why USAFA might be taking a course of action that on the surface seems controversial, but given context and information might make more sense.

This much is certain. Some cadets will be expelled for this and those given remediation are not certain to complete it, the historical rate is that 1 in 3 will not succeed. Additionally the sooner USAFA can put this chapter behind them the better. The cadet wing will need to heal from this and I want to keep my distance from this while urging others to do the same and let them work this situation out.

Have a great weekend folks!
 
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scoutpilot said:
It doesn't have to be. All it has to be is a situation where people in the squadron, especially the chain of command, feel a great friendship or great disdain for a certain individual, and that feeling will inevitably influence their decision-making.
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I sort of agree with u on this. However, such loyalty or favortism is human nature and it happens in all facets of our lives and with each of us. But thats also why such boards arent comprised of just 1 panel member. Remember, there could just as easily be a panel member who can't stand the accused and wants to crucify them unfairly.
 
Christcorp said:
I sort of agree with u on this. However, such loyalty or favortism is human nature and it happens in all facets of our lives and with each of us. But thats also why such boards arent comprised of just 1 panel member. Remember, there could just as easily be a panel member who can't stand the accused and wants to crucify them unfairly.
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Granted, human emotion always plays a part. However, when you have a panel composed from the Squadron, there is almost NO chance that the panel on the people will not have an opinion one way or the other about the individual. They live in the same hallway, play intramurals together, eat at the same tables, and stand in the same formations. If you remove that vote at the squadron level and draw it from the Wing at large, there is almost no chance that each person on the board could have a predetermined opinion about the individual. To me, introducing the Squadron dynamic into a vote on whether or not to keep the individual is asking for an unfair result.

Some will say "oh, well, they would know the individual best and thus give the best recommendation on whether he/she can be remediated." That, in my opinion and experience on the honor committee, is a false premise. If you had asked all those folks beforehand whether or not the individual would commit the violation they admitted, they would all have emphatically told you "no way." And yet there the individual sits, having committed the unthinkable in a Cadet's universe, despite what their closest peers would have thought. How well can they judge potential for remediation, when they never thought any of their peers to be capable of lying/cheating/stealing before it occurred? Every honor violator, even the most egregious, trots out a long line of character witnesses who will testify to his or her unshakable honor...
 
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