Legalizing recreational use of pot in CO

Proud to say I've never touched the stuff. I wouldn't do a thing to jeopardize my chances at getting into ROTC in a few years.

Seeing as one branch of our military risks their lives every day to stop the importation of these drugs, the cavalier attitude displayed here by some seems a little ironic.

Good point Luigi

Luigi59 said:

Seeing as one branch of our military risks their lives every day to stop the importation of these drugs, the cavalier attitude displayed here by some seems a little ironic.

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I don't think anyone is being cavalier, it seems everyone posting is against the idea.

Maybe I was, a little. And I have a whole Cheech and Chong tangent all ready to go in my head too. Darn. I will go look for something more productive to do than to write jingles ( ripped off of old comedy routines) for this new industry experiment.

I don't have any desire to smoke pot, but I think a lot of users are jumping to conclusions that simply aren't true. Alcohol and tobacco use, both common in the military, are far more likely to cause long-term health related problems (cancer, liver/kidney failure, the list goes on and on) and more immediate problems (car accidents). At the moment, studies have been inconclusive- advocates point to studies indicating that marijuana use makes someone less likely to get behind the wheel in the first place, while opponents point to studies indicating a decrease in the motor skills and judgement needed to drive well.

As far as money is concerned, I don't see how people can argue that this won't create revenue and jobs. It takes a significant work force to grow, package and distribute tobacco; that same size work force would be needed to grow marijuana, and instead of existing under the table would now become legal and thus contribute to social security, income taxes, etc. The tax on the marijuana itself, as long as it isn't so high as to encourage people to continue to use the black market to purchase it, would create more revenue for a government that we can all agree is sorely in need of it.

Personally, I have no desire to smoke anything, illegal or not, and have no plans of changing that even if the UCMJ does. I would just like to point out that some users on this site are going a little overboard with irrational claims and fearmongering.

PDB88 said:

I would just like to point out that some users on this site are going a little overboard with irrational claims and fearmongering.

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I don't know if this was in reference to my post when I mentioned money but I wasn't using it as fear mongering and apologize if it came across that way. I agree the states will make money on this and yes it will create jobs. What I was trying to highlight was that some of the pro-legalization guys here were "playing up" all the money it will save the state from not arresting people specifically. That's is not entirely true because the state will have to move the funds that it would normally spend to enforce laws to enforce regulation that's all. Yes I agree with you that the money coming in will greatly out pace what we were spending enforcing illegal use.

And the other part of that post I was questioning the legality of collecting taxes at the state level for something the federal government could potential consider as an illegal gain since they still consider it illegal was all. It was something that I had no idea on and was looking for knowledge.

So once again sorry if it came across that way. I was trying to impart some of the information that I'm hearing and gave my opinion on it not trying to scare people or give the wrong information.

Thanks,
Will

PDB88 said:

I don't have any desire to smoke pot, but I think a lot of users are jumping to conclusions that simply aren't true. Alcohol and tobacco use, both common in the military, are far more likely to cause long-term health related problems (cancer, liver/kidney failure, the list goes on and on) and more immediate problems (car accidents). At the moment, studies have been inconclusive- advocates point to studies indicating that marijuana use makes someone less likely to get behind the wheel in the first place, while opponents point to studies indicating a decrease in the motor skills and judgement needed to drive well.

As far as money is concerned, I don't see how people can argue that this won't create revenue and jobs. It takes a significant work force to grow, package and distribute tobacco; that same size work force would be needed to grow marijuana, and instead of existing under the table would now become legal and thus contribute to social security, income taxes, etc. The tax on the marijuana itself, as long as it isn't so high as to encourage people to continue to use the black market to purchase it, would create more revenue for a government that we can all agree is sorely in need of it.

Personally, I have no desire to smoke anything, illegal or not, and have no plans of changing that even if the UCMJ does. I would just like to point out that some users on this site are going a little overboard with irrational claims and fearmongering.

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Someone actually DOES their research. I applaud you -
The fact that it ruins your life is way off the reality of it. Marijuana is a good stress reliever, and not a single person has died from use or withdrawal from it. Why Alcohol and Tobacco use is permitted in the Military and Marijuana is not stuns me. I also do not have any intention to smoke it, but I just wanted to throw out my two cents.

Yeah, I'm not sure I get the "sky is falling!" aspect of this whole thing. I've never done any kind of drug, but the majority of my civilian friends have at least "experimented" with pot (full disclosure: a high school classmate of mine is now a small-time MC and rapper who goes by "Chronic Tone," so...yeah...).

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see this turning the states of CO and WA corrupt and overrun with permanently high degenerates smoking on every street corner. Most people who would want to smoke pot already do regardless of the law, and I'd be surprised if the law change caused anything more than a slight uptick in marijuana usage aside from maybe an initial bump by those both law-abiding and curious.

Jason922 said:

Marijuana is a good stress reliever, and not a single person has died from use or withdrawal from it.

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How many LE officers have died in the battle to stop the importation of illegal drugs into the country?

Where does the money from the sales of imported illegal marijuana go?

Could the money fund terrorism/narco-terrorism?

What if a weapon purchased with the proceeds of illegal drugs was used to kill a military officer or Border patrol officer?

Ever hear of the name Brian Terry, or how he died in a gun battle with marijuana smugglers?

Would that qualify as one of your stress relievers?

As far as money is concerned, I don't see how people can argue that this won't create revenue and jobs. It takes a significant work force to grow, package and distribute tobacco; that same size work force would be needed to grow marijuana, and instead of existing under the table would now become legal and thus contribute to social security, income taxes, etc. The tax on the marijuana itself, as long as it isn't so high as to encourage people to continue to use the black market to purchase it, would create more revenue for a government that we can all agree is sorely in need of it.

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That all looks good on paper and makes sense when looking at it through an entry level college business course but there are many more issues that go into the equation.

I can only speak from the point of view of Washington State. For years, as long as I can remember liquor in this state was sold only through State run Liquor Stores. The State owned and operated the entire Liquor Sales, they also set prices and regulated what was sold. Just recently the State voted to privatize Liquor sales, the overriding factor in this vote was to take the State out of the Liquor business. The money spent by the state operating the liquor sales off set what they brought in with the taxes.

I fear that setting up a new department within the Liquor Control Board to monitor and run State stores that will be allowed to sell the Pot will off set a lot of the money that is brought in.

The state has already stated they will tax each phase starting with the growers, then the distributors, then the sales. When you factor it the costs of growing the pot legitimately, wages, equipment, and overhead costs, the price of 1 oz. of Pot will not go down in price, not when compared to the cost of what is brought into the country illegally. While some jobs may be created in the private and public sector, I don't think the states are going to see the windfall from the sales of pot that the campaigns claimed, not when you factor in the costs to regulate and monitor the new industry.

Add to this the new situation local law enforcement will have to handle. While they no longer will be going after the casual user, they will now be tasked to stop the blackmarket sales, this will add to the state's budget, not reduce it. The fight to keep illegal Pot out of the state will not go away, the trafficers are not just going to say "Well it's legal now, let's take our ball and go home" Law enforcement officers will still be involved in the dangerous job of keeping the illegal Pot out of the state. The only real benefit of all this is that the illegal Pot may cost less then the State approved Pot sales after all the taxes that have been proposed are added.

This is new territory for the States, it won't be like the medical use sales, it will be a whole new frontier for them. It will be inetersting to see how it all looks in a year or so, that is if the Feds don't sue the states to repeal the new law.

Luigi59 said:

How many LE officers have died in the battle to stop the importation of illegal drugs into the country?

Where does the money from the sales of imported illegal marijuana go?

Could the money fund terrorism/narco-terrorism?

What if a weapon purchased with the proceeds of illegal drugs was used to kill a military officer or Border patrol officer?

Ever hear of the name Brian Terry, or how he died in a gun battle with marijuana smugglers?

Would that qualify as one of your stress relievers?

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If marijuana became legal in the U.S, I doubt there would be much business smuggling it into the country. You don't often hear of tobacco smugglers, except in New York and similar states with taxes so high as to encourage an illegal market. Instead of that money illegally making its way to narco-terrorists, it would be in the hands of now-employed, taxable Americans.

While the loss of any LE officer is a tragedy, refusing to at least look at the facts with an open mind would be akin to making Prohibition permanent because LE officers were killed enforcing it.

**EDIT** JCLEPPE, What you are describing to me sounds more like the state causing problems for itself moreso than marijuana causing a problem. I agree that if the states raise taxes significantly, it will only create more need for an illegal market. If states are more conservative in their approach, more similar to privatized liquor sales rather than state-controlled liqour or tobacco sales, the black market for marijuana would all but collapse.

As for local police "taking their ball and going home," it really depends on how much control the states want to exert over the market. As the amount of control goes up, I think you will see costs on the state side go up as well. If the states can get out of their own way, costs will go down significantly and revenue from tax will increase.

The illegal market will still be there. The dealers will just have lower prices than the what the state is selling it for.

Not all illegeal marijuana comes from outside the country, much of it is grown here in the US and then distributed to the dealers. The difference between marijuana and prohibition of alcohol in the past is that marijuana is an easy and fast growing product that does not require the process alcohol does. Marijuana can be grown easily by anyone and still be distributed through a blackmarket that won't go away easily despite marijuana now being legal.

The blackmarket for Tobacco is huge in this country, while it is not usually brought in from other countries it is brought from other states that have lower taxes and sold in states with higher taxes. The tax difference between just Washington and Idaho is huge at least $3.00 perpack. There is a huge balckmarket problem just between those two states.

Since the new law has been voted in there has been a large number of applications to open stores or run them, on the flip sode there have been hardly any applications submitted to grow marijuana. The farmers know what the risks are and are not yet willing to bet on being able to grow a product the will be able to compete with the blackmarket, it's just to easy for anyone to grow on their own and sell.

I loved the comment from one farmer in the state, he said, " I have enough trouble with people stealing corn from my field, I can't imagine the security I would need growing marijuana."

One other note, you will learn as you get older and are out of school, the State's have never been able to find a way to get out of their own way.

As far as the privatized liquor sales went in this state, the state added so many new taxes to the sale of liquor through private stores that the cost has actually gone up, not down.

I had a Dr's appointment this morning. I was talking to him about this and the driving under the influence issue. One of the things he said was "this is a lawyer's dream". There is no breathalyzer test so a field sobriety test will be the initial probable cause. If one fails the field sobriety test they will collect a urine sample. He says "do you know how long that stuff stays in your system?" I say it depends on if one is a habitual user or an occaisional user but it can be for several months. He says exactly and that is going to be a problem because the prosecution will not be able to prove how long before one got behind the wheel that pot was smoked. The defense will be yeah I smoked a joint last week. I have no idea how the enforcement will go but it certainly seems that it could be problematic and expensive (for the state).

I think the regulatory issues will consume any tax revenue. The government is not a business and they don't very efficiently. The black market will not go away but the price point may change.

Many people are deterred from using due to it being illegal. Doesn't mean they haven't tried it but they don't become regular users because it is illegal. Most people do prefer to avoid trouble with law enforcement and therefore avoid illegal activities. I drive pretty close to the speed limit because I don't want a ticket but if the speed limit is 75 I drive 75.

Taxation does not have to come in the form of a direct tax executed throughout the production and distribution process. Relying on increases in income tax, sales tax, and fees to register as a grower/distributor/retailer would allow the states to increase revenue. As you pointed out, the black market exists in states where the tax prohibitively high. If you look at private liqour sales in states that have had a long history of doing so, they do not have excessively high fees that discourage businesses.

Taxation does not have to come in the form of a direct tax executed throughout the production and distribution process. Relying on increases in income tax, sales tax, and fees to register as a grower/distributor/retailer would allow the states to increase revenue.

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Again, that looks good on paper, in reality it's not how the taxes will be structured. A lot depends on the state. In Washington there is no State Income Tax. One of the streams of revenue comes from what they commonly call "Sin Taxes". These are taxes on items like tobacco and alcohol. In Washington, at least, this won't change anytime soon. Your statement works fine except where wishful thinking runs head on with reality.

The issue still remains with the Feds. Nobody is going to risk starting a new crop that could be seized at anytime by the Feds.

I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, but your insinuation that what I am saying is wishful thinking or not practical or based solely on first year college classes is misguided. So far, the only legitimate problems you have pointed out lie with your state's tax system and are not inherent to marijuana.

So far, the only legitimate problems you have pointed out lie with your state's tax system and are not inherent to marijuana.

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Not even sure what that statement means, but hey, sounds like you have it all figured out for us that are seemingly misguided.

fencersmother said:

What will happen now that recreational use of pot will be legal in Colorado? Please tell me cadets will not be permitted its use!

It's such a gateway drug - I just can't imagine how they will work with or around this new law.

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Oh god! Oh no! Oh the humanity! Heavens to betsy! Oh my stars!

There's actually a significant body of study that holds marijuana harmless in any so-called "gateway effect."

I can think of few electoral issues to be less concerned about.