New Cadet BBQ

Wow. 16 pages discussing box lunches and candy bars in a parking lot, and all this AF guy can say is "You mean you guys DIDN'T get a catered brunch on the Golf Course patio?" :shake::shake:

Just more evidence that I chose my career path wisely... :wink:

:zip:

Just kidding folks. Keep it up, VERY interesting stuff here
 
I disagree that the standards need to be changed (I think that is what you were implying). I think West Point has to rely on inconsistent test administrators from across the country. These administrators many times have personal relationships with the candidates or are unfamiliar with the exercises or do not understand how to apply the standard. When the field force was a 450 person army of reserve officers who held the PAEs in central locations with multiple graders grading in a public setting, you could count on more uniformity to the scores being an accurate assesment of a candidate's physical potential. Not so sure now.

Perhaps West Point should stop granting waivers to candidate that fails the CFA.
 
Perhaps West Point should stop granting waivers to candidate that fails the CFA.

This happens? I know it's only 10% of the WCS, but seems like your competitiveness would take a big hit if you failed the CFA. Are they making allowances for super smart types (high SAT) or are such waivers made to make sure the class is "rounded out?"
 
This happens? I know it's only 10% of the WCS, but seems like your competitiveness would take a big hit if you failed the CFA. Are they making allowances for super smart types (high SAT) or are such waivers made to make sure the class is "rounded out?"

A few years ago my RC contacted me and asked me if he should request a waiver for a candidate I administered CFA. The candidate failed it. For this candidate wasn't super smart and didn't fit into "rounded out."

It used to be you could take CFA many times as you want, but now after a first try candidates require RC permission to retake it.
 
I disagree that the standards need to be changed (I think that is what you were implying). I think West Point has to rely on inconsistent test administrators from across the country.

I'm not suggesting the test (CFA) needs to be changed, nor do I believe that inconsistency in testers is the issue.

Nor do I know what happens in admissions halls of USMA, what standard is applied, etc.

What we do know is new cadets show up every year that cannot pass the APFT, cannot do pullups (male) or support their own body weight (female), etc. Not many, but enough to raise the question.

And it's not like it's a temporary problem... once "fragile" it seems to haunt them every year while at USMA. Not just APFT, they are the ones who (re)injure themselves falling off the obstacle course, etc .

Put another way, we would not admit a student who was not prepared to make more than a D in an academic class without remedial work. (Like USMAPS).

Why should USMA admit candidates who can't make higher than a D on the APFT without remedial work?
And most likely will have issues with their DPE coursework, and lower mil grades? They will start out of the chute behind the 8-ball, and require significant remedial work, reviews, etc to stay in.

Perhaps West Point should stop granting waivers to candidate that fails the CFA.

This cuts to uncomfortable space and I'll admit my input is just that of an reasonable well informed parent: while it's not universal, there does appear to be a pattern to the fragile cadets that I know of: nearly all had a "hook" or were recruited for something..... sports, under represented gender/demographic, or strong legacy.

And it's usually not recruited baseball players & tri-athletes having problems with the obstacle course & APFT. There are patterns, and the cadets know it as they live with the cadets in question.

There are exceptions: I know of cadets who struggle with the APFT, but fight, fight, fight to stay ahead of it. Ex: it's just hard for some females with certain body shapes. But they fight, work hard, and make it work. DS loves to help these types. They know and accept that the APFT will be part of their life for the next 9 years or more and are willing to do what is required.

But there are also cadets who are there because of Dad's dream, not theirs. Or because they were recruited hard. And the passion/fire is not there.

I understand the need for recruiting and outreach for certain areas. But maybe it's time to screen more on the physical side, and use a USMAPS approach for them as well?

Or maybe just a screening during CBT for a minimum CFA performance level to set the expectation with candidates that passing the CFA is not enough, they need to be able to perform when they show up and maintain that level of performance?

USMA makes cadets retake & pass the APFT prior to going to MIADS specifically to deal with this type of issue.

But my gut sense is that USMA will say the current approach works, and we are proposing solutions to a non-problem. So this is a theoretical discussion at best... none of us can change or even influence this issue if it's not viewed as a problem.
 
Last edited:
Me thinks a lot of people need to take a chill pill. I am a parent of a '17 NC. If you are a USMA student on this thread, you really need to leave immediately.

Me thinks rules should be read. Again everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And to ask current cadets to leave is to ask those with the most knowledge to leave a discussion.

Perhaps, a review of the rules is warranted:
The rule that gets most people in trouble is this (bold added):
- Do not attack or insult a person in an effort to elicit a negative response. You have a right to disagree, but you must do so in a respectful manner.

Opinions are welcome on this forum. There is nothing wrong with lively discussion.
 
Noooo... parents are far more helpful than current cadets and midshipmen! :eek:
 
Noooo... parents are far more helpful than current cadets and midshipmen! :eek:

I know you are only half tongue-in-cheek on this, so I'll play, also partially in jest:

This is because parents can only reflect second hand information from little Johnny/Suzie, heavily colored by emotion, pride, and concern.

Meanwhile the cadets live in a world of perfect information, with no scuttlebut, and are totally objective.

Yep, got it :thumb: Loud and clear, stay in your lane!

The reality is that there are topics where really only current cadets understand. Not parents, not grads, no one who is not living it that moment. These are largely things related to the cadet experience.

And there are other topics where the cadets largely are ill-informed. Just not on their radar, no current info feeds, etc.

The current topic (CBT & cadet life) is one that really only current cadets have any recent info, and virtually none of them participate. (1-2%??? Maybe)

But it's largely an abstract discussion as there is virtually zero chance that a cadet can influence the decisions, etc. So most will not bother, and accept the decisions & politics, and move on.

I know this is my cadet's position. And, in fact, he would question why a cadet would be spending time posting on this forum instead of being off at training, etc or on leave. His suspicion: Someone stuck on STAP/SGR and bored. Don't get me wrong, he willingly works with candidates from our state to help them with "life at USMA" questions, preparation, etc. Just has very little patience and zero desire for the abstract debates and dialogs on SAF.

So not many cadets participating. Serving officers with first hand experience of current (2013-2015, much less 2016) cadet performance in the real world are even rarer. And likely to be second hand unless they had one for CTLT, etc. Or were USMA staff. But opinions from officers in general about what is important (fitness, selection, etc) sure would count quite a bit.

Likewise, there are other topics (Admissions process, budgets, this year's acceptance/report/CBT attrition figures, etc) that current cadets have very little view or concern. And many parents have as much or more understanding as the average cadet. And some parents have very detailed understanding on these items due to their involvement in various aspects & roles.

Ex: Cow Loans- USAA does a wonderful job briefing parents through the parent clubs. I know as fact that the average parent in our state understands this topic far more than our cadets do. Not a good thing, just the way it is. Yes, cadets are briefed as a group. Counselors are available. But most do not have context or interest (no pun intended) to understand the cow loan.

Some parents also have better viability to separations (voluntary & otherwise) than their cadets do. Boards, etc. Unless a cadet is directly involved, they know little about these areas. But parents usually hear the details, albeit from the separated cadet or their parents. I'll say it: a parent who has gone through boards or separation with their cadet is far more informed than 95% of the current cadets. It's also a topic parent clubs are briefed on by USMA, which gets cascaded.

Major command and policy changes are also usually available to involved parents well in advance of cadets learning of them.

This does not make anyone special, just the nature of the beast. There are multiple camps which can add to the dialog on SAF. Just need to be aware of when it is fact based vs scuttlebut. Or worse, parental emotions!!

So I understand the humor and point, yet also accept the reality that even for areas where cadets are the best source for answers, less than a handful of current cadets participate in the forum on a regular basis.

If only current cadets and recent grads answered, it'd be a very quiet forum. :smile:
 
Here's my hierarchy of help for SAF:

1. Academy graduate officers currently assigned to an academy.
2. Current cadets or midshipmen
3. Academy grads currently serving
4. Academy grad not currently serving
5. Officers with other commissioning sources
6. Parents of current cadets or midshipmen
7. Officers no longer serving
8. Spouses of officers
9. Enlisted members currently serving
10. Enlisted members no longer serving
11. Future cadets or midshipmen
12. Parents of cadets or future midshipmen
13. Everyone else
 
Here's my hierarchy of help for SAF:

1. Academy graduate officers currently assigned to an academy.
2. Current cadets or midshipmen
3. Academy grads currently serving
4. Academy grad not currently serving
5. Officers with other commissioning sources
6. Parents of current cadets or midshipmen
7. Officers no longer serving
8. Spouses of officers
9. Enlisted members currently serving
10. Enlisted members no longer serving
11. Future cadets or midshipmen
12. Parents of cadets or future midshipmen
13. Everyone else

How about BGO, ALO, FFR, and please accept my apologies as I have no idea what Coast Guard and Merchant Marine equivalents are?
 
Perhaps West Point should stop granting waivers to candidate that fails the CFA.

Waivers are probably ~10 a year, not counting international candidates. Waivers are reviewed by DPE Master of the sword, too, the ones who will be grading the Cadet's fitness over the next 4 years.

Retests are another issue. I don't know the numbers of those a year. West Point does allow more than one SAT or ACT, though, so there is that. Those tests count 30% of a candidate's whole candidate score.

I do agree that many new cadets arrive to beast not prepared for the PT program. Heck, I was one when I was a new cadet. I couldn't finish the first 3 mile run to Thayer gate and back. I was a little arrogant and slacked off on PT the last couple of months before beast. Oh we'll, West Point fixed that. I ended up tabbing the IOCT my plebe year and currently score a 300 on my PT test.
 
Last edited:
Why not just let candidates know that they will retake the cfa during beast, and if they fail, they're gone?
 
Here's my hierarchy of help for SAF:

1. Academy graduate officers currently assigned to an academy.
2. Current cadets or midshipmen
3. Academy grads currently serving
4. Academy grad not currently serving
5. Officers with other commissioning sources
6. Parents of current cadets or midshipmen
7. Officers no longer serving
8. Spouses of officers
9. Enlisted members currently serving
10. Enlisted members no longer serving
11. Future cadets or midshipmen
12. Parents of cadets or future midshipmen
13. Everyone else

But what if I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night? Would that put me in your Top 5 at least?
 
But what if I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night? Would that put me in your Top 5 at least?

Wait a minute, I already plagiarized that meme: "Just a dad, but I did attend a briefing at Plebe Parent Weekend..."
 
Back
Top