Are you saying that some students are choosing engineering just so they can receive a better Air Force scholarship?... its better I take that then have done engineering to get more money...and then flunk out (as a lot of people do)
Are you saying that some students are choosing engineering just so they can receive a better Air Force scholarship?... its better I take that then have done engineering to get more money...and then flunk out (as a lot of people do)
Im currently a freshman with a 3 year type 2. No stipend or book allowance or anything until contracting sophomore year.
Doesn't VT charge about 28K a year for OOS tuition plus room and board? You can't conceive of anyone either not having the ability to pay 28K the first year (while waiting for your type 2 scholarship to begin) or not wanting to go to a school in Florida instead of VT? Is it possible that some might join the Navy or ROTC programs so that they could attend VT or another school of choice?Also, on another note, the AF does not lose people based on their "type" system. I live with Army Navy Marine and AF cadets/mids and this subject comes up alot. Its true the AF doesnt offer all full-rides but if finances are an issue, AF cadets can take their scholarships anywhere they want. If not getting full-ride was an issue for me, I could have just stayed in Florida and gone to a cheaper school.
Do you actually believe that ALL ROTC students have a dream of being commissioned in the military? Do you think ANY of the military branches believe that? How about just the AFROTC candidates? I think the military is well aware that MANY of the ROTC students are trading years of service for an education. Just check out their ROTC sites and FAQs. They are selling $175K+ opportunities to go to school and THEN get some experience. If everybody had the "dream" then mandatory service following college wouldn't be necessary.I don't believe that any branch loses qualified candidates who want to serve, because like Nick just stated, their desire to serve will not stop them, if that means taking student loans for one yr to get their dream of being commissioned in the military, than that is what they will do.
Of course you would. I'm sure the military branches would agree with you. All they have to do to accomplish this is to do away with the free tuition, books and stipends. The truly motivated would still join ROTC and find a way to pay for school. As you said: "..if that means taking student loans for one yr to get their dream of being commissioned in the military, than that is what they will do." Certainly those candidates that are willing to take out loans for one year would be willing to do it for all four in order to follow their dream?I would rather see less qualified that desire to serve then someone who was more qualified who did it for a "free" education.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they converting type 7s into type 2s? In other words...students (or parents) are paying for their first year of college out of pocket so they can get 18K a year towards tuition in the 2,3,& 4th years?In the end of the day for the AF, IMHO they probably have the most qualified and that is why you see cadets converting type 2 into type 7.
Certainly those candidates that are willing to take out loans for one year would be willing to do it for all four in order to follow their dream?
Then we are finally in agreement on this point.I believe you want me to say they lose qualified candidates because of the regs. Do they? Of course they do!
Those numbers (1/3 on scholarship) seem sort of low. I have not looked extensively but did find this number on the PSU ROTC site:I can tell you from our DS's det only about 1/3 are on scholarship. The rest are there because they want to serve, and yes his college bill is over 35K a yr as an OOS, 20K IS. Not everyone in ROTC is scholarship.
Again we agree.Should I say that they lose qualified candidates? Of course they do, not only for financial reasons, but also because of the commitment.
Yes - we definitely are.Reality is we are both on the same side...
I believe the military is spending their money wisely by recruiting through ROTC scholarships. That doesn't mean they (and in particular the AF) can't do better. As you may have gathered by now, I think the AF system is flawed and is costing the AF some qualified candidates. How many? I don't know, but it definitely has to be some. Because my daughter is on the receiving end of this "flaw" I may be feeling the unfairness more acutely than you.In the end of the day, you must ask do you believe that our military is spending their dollars wisely recruiting through ROTC scholarships? I do. It might not be the optimal system, but it is one that works with proven results.
That doesn't mean they (and in particular the AF) can't do better. As you may have gathered by now, I think the AF system is flawed and is costing the AF some qualified candidates
Absolutely! Of course the decision (and long term responsibility) is actually my daughters, but yes "we" think the AF has the most to offer her.Could it be that for her and your family you have decided the AF is a better fit?
This is where you and I just cannot seem to agree. It seems that we are mixing a couple of issues.If that is the case and your DD is getting the shorter end of the stick, would you not agree that the AF has enough qualified candidates to be selective? If you do agree that they can pick and choose, then would you not agree that their bar does not lower because their demand is higher than they can supply?
On behalf of my daughter...Thank you. However, I'm sure there are better qualified candidates than my daughter that unfortunately do not have her moral and financial support. I am (obviously) concerned the AF is losing some of those. Perhaps too many. Personally if my son (a junior in HS) was wounded and taken to an AF hospital, I would not care whether the Docs and Nurses joined for the money or not (after all they accept positions in civilian life based on monetary reasons). I would want the best (skilled) and the brightest taking care of him. I don't want to beleive that some "flawed" AF recruiting method is causing the bar to be lowered for the recruitment of nurses (or any other AF job).Your DD is an incredible candidate for ROTC, every branch will scoop her up. Why does she want AF? Why would she be willing to take a 3 yr over a 4 yr in a different branch?
Possibly. As I said above, there is some strong evidence that this "pick and choose" method may not apply to ALL AF jobs.The AF stinks at scholarships compared to other branches...ask yourself WHY? The answer is clear because they can...when numbers run low they will be less selective until then, they can pick and choose the best of the litter...which brings us back to the question of best qualified candidates.
Did you see my other thread on whether the AF is actually the smallest of the branches? I hope someone can contribute some other sources for that information.Where do they get the funding? There is only a limited amount of money to go around, remember the AF is the smallest branch out of the Army, Navy and AF.
Possibly. As I said above, there is some strong evidence that the AF is meeting its "goals" in SOME fields by lowering the bar on its candidate pool.Again, they are meeting goals, thus there is no need to recruit more by expanding their ROTC program, they also have OTS.
Perhaps our biggest disagreement is with this part of your opinion. Does the AF have ENOUGH money to meet it's need for nurses? Also, is it using it's "limited" funds in the best possible method by recruiting recent BSN grads and in college students that have never considered ROTC instead of using it for the cream of the crop coming out of HS? I'm sure you know my opinion.....In the end, it is all about numbers, and the ROTC cadet that is willing to serve any branch for the "free" education, will most likely not get the AF, since the competition is high and they have less $$$ to use for scholarships. The one that only wants to serve the AF will bite the cost, to me that is the best candidate!
Doesn't VT charge about 28K a year for OOS tuition plus room and board? You can't conceive of anyone either not having the ability to pay 28K the first year (while waiting for your type 2 scholarship to begin) or not wanting to go to a school in Florida instead of VT? Is it possible that some might join the Navy or ROTC programs so that they could attend VT or another school of choice?
Are you saying that some students are choosing engineering just so they can receive a better Air Force scholarship?
Do you actually believe that ALL ROTC students have a dream of being commissioned in the military? Do you think ANY of the military branches believe that? How about just the AFROTC candidates? I think the military is well aware that MANY of the ROTC students are trading years of service for an education. Just check out their ROTC sites and FAQs. They are selling $175K+ opportunities to go to school and THEN get some experience. If everybody had the "dream" then mandatory service following college wouldn't be necessary.
My point is that good quality candidates that are poor and want to go to a specific (expensive) school (like VT) must either choose to accept a scholarship with another branch, or give up their dream school. The AF scholarship type system offers an advantage to those (like you) that can afford to pay 30k for a year of school while waiting for an AF scholarship to kick-in. I would prefer a scholarship system that gave EVERY candidate the same opportunity to join the AF and go to a school that they could get accepted (as in the Navy & Army programs), instead of forcing well qualified "poorer" students to make a choice. This system may cost the AF some good candidates. If in fact some GOOD quality candidates go to a different ROTC program then those people that believe the AF doesn't lose good quality candidates to other branches because of its scholarship "type" system would be mistaken.Of course if going to VT is their number one priority, then they can look at other services. But if their number one priority is an AF commission, they arent screwed. Thats my point
Are you saying that some students are choosing engineering just so they can receive a better Air Force scholarship?
Doesn't this strike you as a system that is broken? Students that want to join the AF but can't afford to go to school without a type 1 or 2 scholarship and thus end up shafting themselves by choosing a major just to get enough money? Clearly these are students whose grades, SATs, PT tests, interviewing skills and motivation made them good candidates. It seems wrong somehow that highly motivated (willing to change their career goals to get into the AF) candidates are lost to other branches just because they couldn't hack the engineering majors. Don't you think these type of candidates would contribute more to the AF than those that are just interested in the money?Absolutely. I know several. They start as engineers, cant handle the workload and have to switch majors. AF takes away scholarship. They end up switching to Army. That is a VERY common situation. I thought about trying it too, but thankfully I didnt.
Do you actually believe that ALL ROTC students have a dream of being commissioned in the military? Do you think ANY of the military branches believe that? How about just the AFROTC candidates? I think the military is well aware that MANY of the ROTC students are trading years of service for an education. Just check out their ROTC sites and FAQs. They are selling $175K+ opportunities to go to school and THEN get some experience. If everybody had the "dream" then mandatory service following college wouldn't be necessary.
What cases do exist? That students join AFROTC because of the marketing hype and then drop out of the program? How this would cause them to end up getting in trouble with the law is a mystery to me.These cases DO exist. Most get weeded out in the first year simply because they dont want to put up with the time committment or they end up getting in trouble with the law. Does that waste AF money? Yes. But those people still dont end up getting commissioned.
I don't think I'm doing either. Each student looks for different things in the college they want to attend. I accept that each ROTC candidate has different reasons for joining ROTC. Who is it that believes all AFROTC candidates have a dream of being commissioned in the military? Well I guess not all, some get in trouble with the law or don't get commissioned for other reasons.I'm sorry but I just have to say that I think the central premise of this discussion is flawed. What you're trying to do is simplify the thought process of high school kids looking for a paid education and a commission. To try and group all of them together as if they all look for the same things in a service/university is just unrealistic.
Speaking of your OWN experience....are you related to Pima?I can only speak from my own experience.
The military is NOT walking away from the health care professionals. They are never going to put civilian health care professionals in combat zones (can't control them without the UCMJ and the threat of prison) and they know it.The military has in all branches started to walk away from military health care professionals where they can...for example, most dentists that work on base are now contracted, 20 yrs ago every base had a maternity ward, now only the very large due, thus the demand for nurses and docs have decreased. 20 yrs ago the pharmacist was military, now they are usually contracted. 20 yrs ago the xray techs were military now most hospitals don't have x ray abilities and you are sent on the economy.
What cases do exist? That students join AFROTC because of the marketing hype and then drop out of the program? How this would cause them to end up getting in trouble with the law is a mystery to me.
I am. Not all people who begin AFROTC want to serve for the sake of serving. But everyone who makes it to commissioning does. There's alot that goes on during 4 years of ROTC. Its not the same "weeding out" experience as service academies but it still happens. There is not one senior at my det who isnt motivated to put on the uniform.Who is it that believes all AFROTC candidates have a dream of being commissioned in the military?
Speaking of your OWN experience....are you related to Pima?
Also, on another note, the AF does not lose people based on their "type" system.....
The AF does lose some people because of their "type" system. Some well qualified people.You ARE completely correct that the AF does waste money on some people. Do they miss out on things that the Army and Navy get by handing out full-rides? Probably.
I do not believe this, anymore than I believe everyone who applies should be accepted. I do believe the "type" system of scholarships that the AF uses hurts in recruiting the best people REGARDLESS of their economic status.But you act as though everyone in ROTC is entitled to a scholarship.
While I am absolutely sure that there are MANY places the AF can better spend money than scholarships, I question how successful their recruiting efforts would be without the promise of $175K+ education.There are a lot of better places that money can go than scholarships. You may disagree with me but i honestly believe that.
The AF does lose some people because of their "type" system. Some well qualified people.
While I am absolutely sure that there are MANY places the AF can better spend money than scholarships, I question how successful their recruiting efforts would be without the promise of $175K+ education.