Exhausted Doolie Parent

Falcon A said:

I am going to repost a previous post from Ramius on the purpose of the 4th Class System…

“Here's a story from the Army side. This is a commonality to all the military branches.

(Now LTC Friesen)
Author, Major Bo Friesen USMA 83 (15 Jun 99)

I'd like to chime in with my two cents on the 4th Class System, as I experienced it. My plebe year was during 79-80 and, although it was probably not as draconian as that of the more senior members of this forum, it appears to be considerably different from what exists today.

As I went through it, I did not understand how cutting a pie into nine equal pieces would help an officer lead soldiers into battle. The myriad of disjointed memorizations, ludicrous tasks and perpetual panic mode seemed to have very little to do with the profession of arms. I maintained this attitude throughout my upper class years and I was definitely not a flamer, although fairly stern and consistent. I kept this perspective as a junior officer ... right up to the moment I commanded a cavalry troop in the Gulf War.

One night, at around 0100, we conducted a passage of lines to assault an airfield. We had gone almost 60 hours without sleep and it was raining with a vengeance (yes, rain in the desert ... lots of it). Our own artillery was falling short and landing amongst us, one of my platoon leaders was heading off in a tangent to the direction he should have been following, the squadron main body was drifting too far north, my driver was heading straight for a ravine, a tank in my 4th platoon threw a track, we found ourselves in the middle of one of our own DPICM minefields, the objective was spotted on our right flank (instead of in front of us, where it should have been), almost no maps existed for our area of operations, my boss was perpetually screaming for me to change to his frequency (an impossibility with the wonderfully designed, single-transmitter command tanks), a half dozen spot reports were coming in from my troops (all critical), my intel NCO had a critical update, my XO had a critical update, my ops NCO had a critical update, my 1SG had a critical update, my gunner had spotted dismounts, the regimental commander was forward with us adding his own personal guidance, visibility was almost zero, there was a suspected use of chemical weapons, regimental S-2 reported 500 heavily armed Republican Guards on our objective (later determined to be a squad of American engineers), and I had a moderate to severe case of dysentery. (... A run-on sentence, I know, but then again it was a run-on night.)

It was during this little slice of heaven (of all places) that the 4thClass System was illuminated to me in all its glory. Its goal was not harassment, ridicule, or punishment. Its goal was to train the neural network to deal with an overwhelming amount of disjointed information, quickly process that information, categorize it, and make rapid, sound decisions. At that moment, I would have gladly given a month's pay to the genius who devised the 4th Class System. It provided me with a priceless gift to sort the significant from the insignificant and do my job in a much better fashion. From my perspective, THAT is the rationale behind the system. It trains your brain in a non-lethal environment to sort through the mess, bring some order to it, and continue functioning.

It is an extremely nasty world out there, and part of the academy's mission is to train graduates to survive and excel in that world. We are not doing the graduates any favors by sugarcoating things and putting a happy face on everything. There is still plenty of unadulterated evil, brute force, and chaos to go around. Pretending it isn't there will not make it go away. I sincerely hope that there are enough qualified people to deal with the future chaos and brute force quickly and effectively enough to protect our interests and keep it off our shores. Don't dismiss the 4th Class System as an archaic anachronism. I have found it to be one of the most valuable training programs I have ever undergone.

Just my 2 cents ...
Bo Friesen
Major U. S. Army
USMA 83”

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greentrees said:

Another thing to remember is the TO's are fellow cadets who are also learning to lead - the squadron is a leadership laboratory for all of them - and perhaps they are using a poor leadership style. On one of DS's worst days early in Beast, he wrote, I'm learning how BAD some leaders are and what I DO NOT EVER want to be. He hated the screaming and yelling and felt most of it wasn't needed - he saw purpose in some of it, but many would take it to the extreme. Also hated the inconsistencies where something would be okay in the morning, but not okay in afternoon. Some people when put in a leadership position perform poorly and the rest of the squadron suffer for it.

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Devil Doc said:

I was going to ask a stand-alone question but your post addresses much of it. I've been the trainee and trainer and know what the cadet is going through and as a parent of a Marine officer know what the mom is going through. My question is, at what point do the TOs stop piling on a cadet who is obviously not responding well to their tactics? I don't think they should give up on her but maybe give her a period of time to allow her to catch her breath and catch up. Just asking. I know what I would do and/or recommend.

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Old Enlisted Marine said:

I have been lurking for sometime now (about 2 years, I know its creepy) and this forum has provided some very good advise. So good, I now have a Plebe at USNA. I had him take the lead on this adventure as it is his. I just used this tool as a fact checker to what he has told me to provide the proper support. I'm not into social media at all but find myself checking in here daily. This post has however pulled me out from lurking. I just felt the need to send some good thoughts your way and say STAY MOTIVATED to both of you. She can do this IF she wants it. If she has the desire to serve she will overcome! Move forward, never away from and have a plan. I apologize if any of this comes across the wrong way, it is ALL sent with positive support.

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LT360 said:

My heart feels for you @HOPE0204. As in life, everyone must chart there own path and persevere for their own goals. The SA experience mimics life but perhaps in tempest and is wholly individualized from "I hate this place" to "this is is the best pace ever". Your DS feelings are real and need to be respected. I am lucky that my DS made it through PS with the requisite low and high points but none the less he made it. Now that the Academic year has started, he is just as tired and busy and still getting yelled at, however he has found his people and has more highs than lows. But he also realizes that there will be times when lows are more the highs and is preparing himself to deal with those times.

I pray that your DD will find her people and her purpose.

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TigerMomNot said:

I second this advice. Our Parents' Club have volunteers that reach out to 4th class parents and act as their coaches and support. Super helpful.

I've lost count of the number of tearful letters, phone calls and video calls I've received. Improvements are slow but they seem to be on their way.

Try and take care and keep positive. @HOPE0204 this is for you - may you get to 3:20 -

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HCopter said:

@HOPE0204 , what about bring back some of her Application Team? Are any of her teachers, GC, coaches, friends, or family back home ideal people to give her a call? I was thinking what i'd do...two people in particular would be her AP Phys teacher, who is a USAFA grad himself, and her JROTC instructors, who are 100% supportive. Her swim coach is the both supportive and a nurturing type. My sister is the voice of reason and an MD, and my brother - big reveal - is a BGO and gave her lots of not-sugar-coated advice along the way about the tough times, particularly about the yelling and unwanted upperclass attention, lining up 3 times a day, and having a huge list of EI. For all those that supported her, i'm sure they would be very happy to give her a call and support now.

There is also the option of the Snap-Out-Of-It speech, please don't flame me for suggesting it.

Be the Budda. This was something me and DD talked about as her coping strategy in the midst of all the yelling. I actually got this from my DH, who's instructions on how to handle a deposition - Be the Budda. You have all day. Keep calm. Only answer what is asked. No emotions. And for DD, have an out of body experience and watch them yelling at you. It's not personal. Think about what you would do in 2 years, having to do the same to new Doolies. We discussed visualizing her AP Phys teacher standing next to her, but she said that would only make her laugh, thinking of him 40 years younger and as a fellow Doolie....

Feel free to PM me anytime, and i'll give you my unfiltered version and tell you some jokes. Hang in there! The good news is she is taking active steps that will help her get centered.

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FlyFalcon said:

Question. Is there a place where she can go a just scream? Sounds crazy but it's something my fellow preps do if we mess up on vocab, or get upset with our mile times.

Another thing. I call it an "off-day" it's where I say alright this whole do "everything needs to be perfect today" isn't working. So you know what I'm allowed to make 4 mistakes on the test. I don't try to and that's key. I still try my best, but if I mess up? Nope that was totally planned and time to moving on, because I allowed that room for failure. It's something I should allow anyway but I'm not like that.

I do it with my teammates too. If they do something that causes pushups for the whole group but they're really trying not to? "Hey those pushups were planned in... What do you mean it was an accident no no you see those were already in the schedule. Yes they were. Yes...yes....yes. they. Were." It's a mental thing. Not letting them put all the blame on themselves. Helps keep up moral and realize we can't be perfect.

You can do something a thousand times and still not get it. It's frustrating as heck, but the one time you allow your self to look at that mistake and accept it, honestly accept it. It becomes much easier to do it another thousand times.

I'm not at USAFA, I'm at a prep school getting my butt kick because my study habits need to improve. It's frustrating knowing I'm so close but not enough. <--- that's not the end of the sentence though. I'm not enough ( yet).

Good luck to her. Mental battles are the hardest but she's strong.

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Firstgo said:

Our daughter is a C3C and I can say this year is much better for her than last year. We got those same phone calls last year. My wife was her sounding board and I do feel this was greatly needed for our cadet. It was not about the academics but more about the restrictions and how hard it was to meet new friends. Her host family was concerned about COVID so that did not work out, she got along with her roommate but they really were not friends, they were just roommates. She joined a competitive club and that is were her friend group has developed from. After recognition life got much better. I can only say for her she focused on not today but what opportunities she would have by staying. She still has to do that but speaks often now about the future and what opportunities she has.

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txfwindian said:

My DD is a plebe at USNA, I guess experience is same across the academies.

She was told in very simple straightforward words that she should quit, she is not cut out for this, does not have aptitude every single day over the plebe summer. DD would cry, write sob stories in her letters. I won’t lie if I say there were times when I wanted to tell her to come back home and forget about it. We all knew that she lacked the physical strength, but made up that weakness with a strong mind.

Fast forward, she loves the tough detailers ( for sure not during ps) and putting her best foot forward in the academic year. I would love to say that things are rosy now, but no she has her fair share of struggles. I guess the plebe year is designed like that.

Wishing your DD the best in her endeavors and in finding her inner strength.

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Wahoo Fan said:

I currently have a plebe at USMA. Before he left, we had often talked strategy about how to make it through the plebe year. A lot of it is a game. The main way to win the game is not to quit. I would guess that most of the mental stuff is just for effect to see who really wants to be there, and to weed out those who are there for other reasons (parents desires, prestige, etc.).

If my son were having the same issues as the OP is describing, I might ask him a few questions, especially, “Why are you there?” Or perhaps, “Why are you still there?” I would like to hear his response be something to the effect that his overarching goal is to serve his country as a military officer, and he will do whatever it takes and put up with whatever they make him go through in order to accomplish that goal. One time we watched a documentary about Navy SEAL training. One of the men interviewed said he made a decision before he started, that whatever happened to him during the training, he wouldn’t quit. If they wanted him to leave, they would have to throw him out. (He made it through successfully.) We thought his attitude was a great model for one to have going into a service academy.

On the other hand, if I asked my son why he was there and he gave different answers, I might start to doubt that it was the right place for him. For instance, if he were mainly worrying that quitting the academy would let his parents down, or that he would be too embarrassed to face his hometown friends if he quit, or that he was too prideful to admit he made a mistake when he decided to go there, then I might encourage him to leave. It would be better for him to revise his course early than continue to plod down the wrong road.

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RJB1690 said:

@HOPE0204 - Two weeks have passed since your initial posting. I have been thinking about your daughter a lot during that time and have been hoping to see an update that things have turned a corner (or maybe at least taken a gentle curve for the better!) for her. Are you able to provide any updates? It's so hard to think of our children struggling, especially when they are far away. I guess students and parents alike need to view this as a growth opportunity. My son is at the Coast Guard Academy and has been doing well as far as I know. Even so, I am thrilled to know I will be able to see him in person in just a few days when I'm out there for parents weekend.

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DDmom said:

Just wondering if you think a visit from a firstie would help? my daughters best friend is there and she's a really sweet girl. PM me if its something you want me to ask her to do?

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HOPE0204 said:

@DevilDoc great question! What would you do?

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Wahoo Fan said:

I currently have a plebe at USMA. Before he left, we had often talked strategy about how to make it through the plebe year. A lot of it is a game. The main way to win the game is not to quit. I would guess that most of the mental stuff is just for effect to see who really wants to be there, and to weed out those who are there for other reasons (parents desires, prestige, etc.).

If my son were having the same issues as the OP is describing, I might ask him a few questions, especially, “Why are you there?” Or perhaps, “Why are you still there?” I would like to hear his response be something to the effect that his overarching goal is to serve his country as a military officer, and he will do whatever it takes and put up with whatever they make him go through in order to accomplish that goal. One time we watched a documentary about Navy SEAL training. One of the men interviewed said he made a decision before he started, that whatever happened to him during the training, he wouldn’t quit. If they wanted him to leave, they would have to throw him out. (He made it through successfully.) We thought his attitude was a great model for one to have going into a service academy.

On the other hand, if I asked my son why he was there and he gave different answers, I might start to doubt that it was the right place for him. For instance, if he were mainly worrying that quitting the academy would let his parents down, or that he would be too embarrassed to face his hometown friends if he quit, or that he was too prideful to admit he made a mistake when he decided to go there, then I might encourage him to leave. It would be better for him to revise his course early than continue to plod down the wrong road.

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2025AFADad said:

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Just want to comment on this thread, as I think I might be in a unique position in regard to this topic.

My DS is currently a 2025 at the USAFA, and I work as a contractor for one of the service academy. Due to where I work, I have an opportunity to talk to lots of recent graduates from all the service academies, not to mention different branches of the service.. Therefore; I have an opportunity to prepare my DS mentally on what to expect once he enters.

Now, because I am not part of the faculty and I do not wear the uniform, lots of students treats me as a regular person and feel “freer” to talk to me. I used to work the night shift and my office was on the fringe of the campus, which sometimes turn my office into an unofficial “hangout”. Both my partner and I heard “stories” from the students, we mainly just listened and only offered our opinion/advice when asked. I have students that came in and cried in the room, some came in to catch a quick nap and some that just wanted to come in and decompress or just talk. ( All these stopped after they moved my office to a more central location where there are constant foot traffic with the faculty and uniform ).

Every year, I heard pretty much the same story from the first year students. Majority were just not prepared mentally to handle the situation/environment. They are away from their family and close friends for the first time in their life. When they have to get up early in the morning and prepare for the morning assembly and found out that their friends attending regular college just came back from an all-night party and going to bed now, gotta admit, it’s a bit rough. Instead of going out to a movie on weekend, they have to stay on the academy ground; again, some are not prepared for this.

Since I handled/processed roughly 90% of the dis-enrolled students. Other than those due to academic, behavioral or medical/physical issues (when they wanted to talk about it, I never ask). Most left because they never wanted to attend the academy in the first place, they were here due to their parents. Just food for thoughts for any parents of future academy candidates reading this. Some found out this is not what they wanted after they got here, no shame in that either, IMHO.

Basically, this is what I told every single one that came into my office, if you tough it out and graduate, in 10, 20 years and you look back, and if this is the roughest stretch of your life. Consider yourself lucky.

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