7 mids expelled from USNA over Spice

Isn't the use of the word "widely" a bit overblown?

guess it depends on the definition of 'widely'. If you mean extended across a broad cross section of the brigage - it appears so.

Scandals come and scandals go - this is not the first and won't likely be the last.
 
Luigi, for discussion purposes, let's assume there were 50 mids involved. Would you characterize that as being widespread?
 
Luigi, for discussion purposes, let's assume there were 50 mids involved. Would you characterize that as being widespread?

The midshipmen who were quoted in the article characterized the synthetic marijuana as "widely used" and "popular among rank and file mids."

A synthetic form of marijuana is widely used at the U.S. Naval Academy because it cannot be detected in routine drug tests, according to several former midshipmen
or
...synthetic marijuana has become popular among rank-and-file midshipmen and on the football and wrestling teams, the former midshipmen said

I am not characterizing it at all.

This new information published today in the Washington Post should again serve as a wake up call to all mids and cadets.
 
The midshipmen who were quoted in the article characterized the synthetic marijuana as "widely used" and "popular among rank and file mids."

The midshipmen quoted in the article were ones who had left the Academy or were otherwise at least tangentially connected to spice usage. They're not necessarily a representative sample in the same way that polling the track team on whether they think the PRT run time is hard isn't representative of the entire brigade. I would not necessarily take their words at face value. The information in this article has been rumor mill at the Academy for a couple months now. The rumor mill is not 100% accurate. Think about it: what agendas and biases might they have for wanting to make it sound like there's more people involved than there actually is?


Semi-full disclosure: I know the (now former) midshipman who had seizures. My company lost people over this, and it sucked even though they deserved to get kicked out. I have not done spice, and neither have any of my good friends. It is not as widespread as this article makes it out to be, but it is a problem.
The investigation is ongoing and there definitely will be more people leaving. Will everyone who ever tried spice get kicked out? No, in the same way that not everyone who drinks underage, has sex in the hall, or jumps the wall gets caught.
Every time something like this happens, people flip out and think that it means the Academy only produces drug addicted rapists or something. It doesn't. Mids are kids, and they sometimes do stupid things. Mids have always done stupid things, and always will do stupid things. That's not giving them an excuse, it's just strange to me that people are still surprised by this.


Trust me, I don't need a "wake-up call." :rolleyes:
 
are these accused Mids being offered legal help ?

simple question : Are these Mids going up before the conduct boards being offered any kind of professional legal advice and help prior to the proceedings or are they simply being shoveled in front of the 'Dant's board with only their shipmates to offer verbal support in their behalf :confused:?
 
simple question : Are these Mids going up before the conduct boards being offered any kind of professional legal advice and help prior to the proceedings or are they simply being shoveled in front of the 'Dant's board with only their shipmates to offer verbal support in their behalf :confused:?

It is my understanding that you really only get "legal" help when you are dealing with a Court Martial. These midshipmen are likely getting Non-judicial punishment which can lead to an administrative separation.

Be aware that when it comes to drug use in the military all it takes is a CO believing that the evidence shows you did it. They don't need a positive drug test to "prove" it which is why they are still able to separate members for Spice even though they aren't testing for it yet (except AF).

Any of these midshipmen could likely request a Court Martial, but the "punishment" at one of those would be much greater than taking the NJP if you were to be found Guilty.
 
It is my understanding that you really only get "legal" help when you are dealing with a Court Martial. These midshipmen are likely getting Non-judicial punishment which can lead to an administrative separation.

Be aware that when it comes to drug use in the military all it takes is a CO believing that the evidence shows you did it. They don't need a positive drug test to "prove" it which is why they are still able to separate members for Spice even though they aren't testing for it yet (except AF).

Any of these midshipmen could likely request a Court Martial, but the "punishment" at one of those would be much greater than taking the NJP if you were to be found Guilty.

Of course KP, they could receive legal advice because they have the right to demand a Court Martial as opposed to Mast, because they are not attached to an afloat unit.

EDIT: As soon as I wrote that, i saw that final line in your post. I'll keep mine up instead of deleting it to illustrate the rights of naval members for Courts Martial v. Mast (NJP) for anyone who may not be familiar with it.
 
simple question : Are these Mids going up before the conduct boards being offered any kind of professional legal advice and help prior to the proceedings or are they simply being shoveled in front of the 'Dant's board with only their shipmates to offer verbal support in their behalf :confused:?

At West Point there is an AG office on post. Cadets are free to go and consult with legal counsel at any time for any reason.
I do not know if USNA has an AG office on the yard but surely there is one nearby. As Midshipmen are active duty they would be eligible for legal counsel - they just need to seek it out.
Another option, of course is a civilian attorney. Many specialize in assisting soldiers and sailors in the military.
JMHO - any Mid (who is not afloat) or Cadet who finds themselves at odds with the administration should seek legal counsel; especially if they are in their 3rd or 4th year at the Academy and facing a huge bill and a dishonorable discharge.

Of course, any Mid or Cadet who faces legal charges is provided with legal counsel.
 
With an immediate and strong threat of being separated from the academy and coupled with an enormous bill for their educational/professional services received "hanging" over them, I would hope these Mids have a well-defined opportunity for legal assistance and counseling.
 
I would hope these Mids have a well-defined opportunity for legal assistance and counseling.

As mentioned above there is a JAG officer who can provide them with some guidance; however, they will not "represent" them as we normally think of a lawyer representing a client. They can sit down and review the circumstances with the service member; however, it is my understanding that there is no attorney-client privilege in an NJP situation.

Remember this isn't the civilian judicial system, this falls under the UCMJ. Want to "fight" it beyond NJP and you'll likely end up with: Drug Use, Drug possession, Conduct Unbecoming, Failure to obey a lawful order, and several other charges against you leading to a dishonorable discharge :thumbdown:

These processes also happen very fast. From the time you are brought to NJP to the time you are gone can be a matter of hours, especially with drug use charges. (Speaking from fleet experience on this part, it may take a bit longer at USNA)
 
As mentioned above there is a JAG officer who can provide them with some guidance; however, they will not "represent" them as we normally think of a lawyer representing a client. They can sit down and review the circumstances with the service member; however, it is my understanding that there is no attorney-client privilege in an NJP situation

Military lawyers (JAG) represent military members accused of ucmj violations all the time. If you are going to court martial you will be provided with a military defense lawyer. If you are undergoing administrative separation (about to be or threatened with being kicked out) you are also entitled to legal counsel with a JAG.

Cadets and Mids are also free to seek Civilian legal counsel. Some choose to do this because they don't 'trust' the military attorney to represent them.

Seeking legal assistance may not 'fix' a situation - prevent separation; however it can assure that the mids legal rights are not trampled. To suggest that seeking legal counsel will result in creating a 'worse' situation is unfair.
There is no way a 18-22 year old should go up against the Academy administration alone.
When a mid or cadet is in trouble they should immediately seek legal counsel - before they talk. When faced with consquences of a six figure bill from the government and/or a dishonorable discharge or even time in the brig....proper legal counsel is essential.

greeneagle5 - They should know legal help is available. Some are not immediately aware and they are not always told they can seek legal help.
Parents should know legal help is available - if they get the phone call that their child is in trouble they can provide guidance and direction.

Any Cadet or Mid who is being separated for any reason against their will - should seek legal counsel.
 
Zero tolerance = use Spice, get caught, get separated. This is an unequivocal 'bright line' regulation which not only makes for an easy and quick NJP, it also maintains the integrity of the honor code/conduct system. What is unfortunate about the Post article is that the "widespread" characterization casts a shadow on all mids, as well as on the honor code process.
 
fishbowl -
How about - a mid gets caught. squeals like a pig and names names, your son gets a knock on the door in the middle of the night and is forced to stand in front of the commandant and 'tell the truth'.

Please do not be so naive as to think that the administration has each Mid's best interest at heart. In cases like these, often there is collateral damage.
 
No excuses

They all should have known better. Remember, if you hang out with dogs you catch fleas.
 
I'm not saying that the administration has any individual mid's interest at heart - but I do believe that they rightly have the whole Brigade's interest at heart. My point is that the zero tolerance policy is EASY to enforce. Curry's 'almost zero' was under a different Supe/Dant. New sheriffs in town.
 
Curry's 'almost zero' was under a different Supe/Dant. New sheriffs in town.
So the interpretation (and enforcement) of the "zero" tolerance policies actually vary depending on who the current Superintendent is at the USNA? Seems as though that would be confusing to the Mids and difficult for the USNA to maintain the integrity of the honor code/conduct system.
 
So the interpretation (and enforcement) of the "zero" tolerance policies actually vary depending on who the current Superintendent is at the USNA? Seems as though that would be confusing to the Mids and difficult for the USNA to maintain the integrity of the honor code/conduct system.

You are correct. This was a problem at the Naval Academy. I believe that is why the CNO "asked" VADM Fowler to leave his position as Superintendent early and retire.

On a personal note, VADM Miller was my Commanding Officer 20+ years ago. He comes across as laid back, but he is a tough, by-the-book Naval Officer. He is also very fair. I imagine the Mids in this incident are most likely being afforded some type of counsel if they want it. I also imagine his administration is going to set the right example in this case.

I now await his handling of the Herndon climb issue, soon to be a hot topic once May rolls around!
 
Military lawyers (JAG) represent military members accused of ucmj violations all the time.

I think you would be surprised what really happens. Member's who go to NJP in the Navy rarely have JAG involved in my experience.

If you are going to court martial you will be provided with a military defense lawyer.
Absolutely correct

If you are undergoing administrative separation (about to be or threatened with being kicked out) you are also entitled to legal counsel with a JAG.

Yes, anyone can speak to the JAG; however, one must remember the idea of attorney-client privelege when it comes to JAG, which I believe does not apply in NJP situations. (Hopefully someone can let me know if I'm correct or not on that). So if a mid goes to the JAG and says "I did this" and they are charging me with XYZ, that could be used against them.

Seeking legal assistance may not 'fix' a situation - prevent separation; however it can assure that the mids legal rights are not trampled. To suggest that seeking legal counsel will result in creating a 'worse' situation is unfair.

Absolutely agree, my apologies if my statements came off to mean that I don't think midshipmen should seek legal guidance. My statement was more to the point that if they truly want to fight it they would likely need to request a Court Martial at which the punishments would likely be more severe. Seeking guidance in of itself is a very wise move.


Any Cadet or Mid who is being separated for any reason against their will - should seek legal counsel.

Agree. Just be aware that if it's in an NJP setting it can happen very fast so you need to make those moves ASAP.
 
… which is why they are still able to separate members for Spice even though they aren't testing for it yet (except AF).

KP2001 I’m a bit confused by this part of what you said on post #46… The way I read that is that the AF is testing for Spice but the others branches aren’t is that right? And if so why aren’t the other testing for it?
 
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