I mean on a per capita basis. I will look into this a bit more and report back.
Academic Support At USMMA?
- Thread starter Iblameej
- Start date
Here's the anecdotal information I can pass on. Of last year's seven male swimming graduates, two are Naval Aviation and one is Marine Aviation. The swimming coach provided the post-grad details, by name, of all last year's swimming grads. He added that in his 20 years as head coach, all except one who wanted an aviation slot got it, and the one who didn't was due to a medical issue.
As for an explanation, I can't give you one; but I would conjecture that perhaps surviving and graduating from Kings Point despite the manifest obstacles described in this thread say something meaningful about the mids who do it. And maybe the uniformed services appreciate that.
Last edited:
User123222
Member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2022
- Messages
- 15
You will be fine. You will ease through your plebe year if you are doing well in these classes. All you need is a good understanding of physics and calc and you will be fine. Isn’t that bad.
I believe the class of 2024 has 12 navy flight slots. Often times you don't get into those other service academies to make the good grades you refer to hence the USMMA slogan "easiest academy to get into but the hardest to graduate from".
Thank you for your reply! Time management is something I have to hugely focus on.
I thought it might be useful to provide some hard data here regarding comparative 4-year and 6-year graduation rates rather than solely relying on anecdotes. For the most recent 2-year period reported to the Federal Government:
4-year Graduation Rate
Naval Academy - 89%
Coast Guard Academy - 88%
Air Force Academy - 85%
West Point - 80%
Merchant Marine Academy - 74%
6-year Graduation Rate
Naval Academy - 90%
Coast Guard Academy - 89%
Air Force Academy - 87%
West Point - 84%
Merchant Marine Academy - 82%
A couple of things become apparent. First, whatever one thinks of Kings Point's use of rolling back, it has a significant positive effect in graduation rate. Second, West Point occupies a middle ground between the other three and Kings Point, and also appears to set back a number of cadets, far more than Annapolis, Air Force, or Coast Guard. Finally, people should understand that these numbers compare favorably to most schools with similar entering class academic profiles. To use one example, Texas A&M's entering student body has a similar academic profile to the Merchant Marine Academy's. In fact, it may even be slightly higher. Nevertheless, the 4-year graduation rate there is 57%, while the 6-year rate is 83%, and that's with most students there not majoring in something as rigorous as what everyone at Kings Point is required to take.
4-year Graduation Rate
Naval Academy - 89%
Coast Guard Academy - 88%
Air Force Academy - 85%
West Point - 80%
Merchant Marine Academy - 74%
6-year Graduation Rate
Naval Academy - 90%
Coast Guard Academy - 89%
Air Force Academy - 87%
West Point - 84%
Merchant Marine Academy - 82%
A couple of things become apparent. First, whatever one thinks of Kings Point's use of rolling back, it has a significant positive effect in graduation rate. Second, West Point occupies a middle ground between the other three and Kings Point, and also appears to set back a number of cadets, far more than Annapolis, Air Force, or Coast Guard. Finally, people should understand that these numbers compare favorably to most schools with similar entering class academic profiles. To use one example, Texas A&M's entering student body has a similar academic profile to the Merchant Marine Academy's. In fact, it may even be slightly higher. Nevertheless, the 4-year graduation rate there is 57%, while the 6-year rate is 83%, and that's with most students there not majoring in something as rigorous as what everyone at Kings Point is required to take.
Boymomof3
DS#1 NROTC (2025), DS#2 USMMA (2028)
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2020
- Messages
- 528
Thank you for sharing this. Great reminder - Data > Anecdotal Info.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 1,465
It all comes back to the manpower gurus at "Big Navy", etc. I don't know why exactly they split the billets up the way they do, but I know that some are tagged explicitly for USA, ROTC, Enlisted Commissioning programs, etc. I have been told KP is wrapped in with the ROTC designated billets.
One possible consideration at Big Navy is the analogous to defense acquisition. By spreading the sourcing out they ensure there is no single point of failure in the accession sources that would significantly impact sourcing year to year. It also has the benefit of keeping those sources in a continuous operational status vs having to restart things if an emergency came up. You would only have to ramp up instead of having to rebuild.
Many alumni ask the same question.
I think you will find a solid percentage of individuals for whom KP was not their first choice of service academy. As an example, I know someone who had never heard of KP and only applied after their MOC suggested it after they were declined for a nomination to another SA.
If it were easy, everyone would do it.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 1,465
Back in the day graduation was an exercise in survival as much as anything else.
Prior to the trimester system being implemented we were on a quarter system. Each quarter was 10-weeks and classes included the same information in a traditional 15 week semester.
When you also factor in the higher course load, 18-22 credits per quarter were common, and the shorter course length you can see how academically brutal it can be.
A typical BS degree is typically 160 credits, I graduated with 240. 240 credits spread over a series of 15 credit semesters would take 16 semesters and 8 years to complete.
Why would anyone subject themselves to this? I now proudly claim the title of "KP Alumni" ... enough said.
Prior to the trimester system being implemented we were on a quarter system. Each quarter was 10-weeks and classes included the same information in a traditional 15 week semester.
When you also factor in the higher course load, 18-22 credits per quarter were common, and the shorter course length you can see how academically brutal it can be.
A typical BS degree is typically 160 credits, I graduated with 240. 240 credits spread over a series of 15 credit semesters would take 16 semesters and 8 years to complete.
Why would anyone subject themselves to this? I now proudly claim the title of "KP Alumni" ... enough said.
So I know at USAFA, they had offered a "Stop out" in which cadets could apply to take a year off between 3rd class and 2nd class year. And many of the Mormon cadets took a special 2 year stop out to fulfill their mission. I think KP has that big jump between 4 year and 6 year because of how they purpose the setback, it's almost like a prep school year in the middle of the journey rather than the begining. I don't think other SAs necessarily do that, certainly not to the extent KP does.
hopefulmominla
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2011
- Messages
- 138
I really like data too! So thanks for some numbers. So 12 flight spots breaks into about 5% of grads will have that opportunity right out of the academy . Where as at USNA the average is 37.5% of billets are flight each year. USMA has roughly 10% aviation billets. Coast Guard has roughly 10% and USAFA has roughly 40%.
When you consider graduation statistics I have to wonder why if an applicant got denied to every academy except usmma and didn’t want to be a merchant marine but rather wanted to commission to another service why wouldn’t they self prep for a year and reapply to the other academies.
But I know a lot of KP alumni who love to be loud and proud that conditions sucked, they had little to no academic assistance and hated it a lot of it but it all ended up ok… I’m a big softy and think unnecessary struggle due to programming, lack of resources and questionable leadership choices is just unnecessary.
It’ll be interesting to see if KP ever desires to be a top notch academy vs the one you go to when you can’t get in elsewhere. I hope so, our Merchant Marines deserve better !
Last edited:
I'm not sure it quite works out this way. First, that was 12 Naval Aviation. That leaves an unknown number of Marine, Army, and Air Force aviation slots that are theoretically also available to KP grads. In addition, the biggest variable is the competition at KP for those slots. My guess is that far, far fewer mids at KP go there wanting to fly than at any of the other academies for an obvious reason . . . it's a maritime school. So when you shake everything out by counting all aviation slots available to KP grads compared to the number of KP grads who want to fly, the odds might indeed be pretty relatively good.
Plus Coast Guard aviation slots. And I agree that the odds for aviation out of KP are excellent. My KP DS had his choice of Navy and Marine Corps aviation offers upon graduation which is not that unusual. He went Navy. Of his two best friends, one went USMA Aviation and the other chose USCG Aviation.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 1,465
I am not sure that using 12 slots against the total number of graduates or comparing KP to the other academies the correct statistical analysis and is a bit like comparing apples to oranges.
Unlike the other academies KP grads are not required to go on active duty. What percentage of KP 1/C apply for active duty? What percentage apply for aviation? What percentage apply for Naval Aviation? The real question is what percentage of KP 1/C M/N applying for Naval Aviation get one of those 12 slots? Of the 62.5% of USNA 1/C M/N not going aviation, how many applied for aviation as their first choice?
I would suggest the important data point is not how many overall slots there are as a percentage of the student body, but what percentage of those applying for aviation as their first choice get it. On that I believe KP is not far from 100%
hopefulmominla
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2011
- Messages
- 138
I think it’s humorous that the “data point” that you claim matters most is one that’s not publicly available … I ll still contend all the publicly available data suggests usmma lags in a lot of important areas and unless you want to be a merchant marine go elsewhere.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 1,465
I honestly don't know what is publicly available and what isn't but when a large number of KP graduates every year make zero effort to go active duty so including them in the data set does not really seem accurate. Reading you post again I am not sure if you are trying to determine the odds a KP M/N has in getting flight, or are you saying that KP should be on the same level as the military academies?
I think this is essentially the decision that everyone faces multiple times throughout their lives. When Plan A doesn't work do I go to Plan B, C, D, Etc. now, or come back an try plan A again later. This is one of my pet peeves with society right now. Kids today at 18-22 are being sold a story that they have to keep up and if you don't go to college right out of high school and don't graduate in four years then you are failing. I am a big believer in the gap year concept. "Society" pushes kids in to college right away telling them they need a degree to succeed. How many study things they have no interest in just to finish? How many take on massive debt to accomplish it? How many come out of college with a degree they don't have interest in with no more direction in life than when they started? Yet "society" holds them up as though they achieved something when many just achieved conformity.
I knew exactly what I wanted and I didn't deviate from it, it took me multiple tries to get my Plan A but for me, Plan A in a couple years was more important than Plan B now. Many kids feel rushed into anything so they take any route now vs the right route later.
I would say though that everything I have seen and heard suggests the success rate of getting Naval Aviation from KP far exceeds the 37.5% of billets available at USNA. When I lived near DC (a highly, highly, highly competitive area for service academies) I had a neighbor who was applying to USNA and wanted flight. I told him he should move to N. Dakota and apply to KP, his chances of getting flight that way were significantly better.
I cannot really disagree with you there. I would suggest though, that when looking at the service academies and how they interact with the Active Duty services, including USMMA on an equal footing does not offer the best statistical analysis because 1. going AD in the military is optional and not required and 2. Supporting AD manning is only part of the mission, not the entire mission.
That is most of us. It is exactly our shared experience of crappy food, piss-poor leadership, borderline useless professors, and our graduation despite them, but because of each other that binds us together and makes the alumni network what it is. Back in the day we got next to no assistance from the "system" but plenty from each other. That's why someone sitting on a pony was considered a betrayal because they put themselves ahead of their peers?
Airborne SIX
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2023
- Messages
- 13
Sharing our experience with the VA-10 Class of 2028 nomination process. Our DS submitted his nomination application 27SEP23 to both Congresswoman Wexton and Senator Kaine. He conducted an on-site interview with Congresswoman Wexton's office 02NOV but did not (or was not told) interview with Senator Kaine. We received Senator Kaine's nomination via postal mail (big yellow envelope with a nice blue folder inside) to the USMMA 21DEC. SEN Kaine uses the competitive method of nomination... "up to ten nominees are submitted for each vacancy and the most qualified nominees are offered appointments by the academy." After we saw the nomination, we confirmed on the USMMA Checklist and viewed "Congressional Nomination-COMPLETE". As every proud parent on this forum, we are hopeful our DS will receive an Offer of Appointment and anxiously looking forward to a status soonest. Looks like the USMMA application is now 1MAR.
MarinerOne
Member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2023
- Messages
- 22
USMMA is hard because of the load that each Midshipman carries - 18 to 22 hours. Also going for four years of schooling in three years at
the Academy - you go throughout the year. Plus during sea years, your project will take time. All of that said, there is NO time to go out every night or on weekends - you either play sports depending on the season or you study. Every team has study periods where those who KNOW a subject (like Physics) help a student who is having problems. The fact that you got a nomination or an appointment is because Admissions thinks that YOU can do the work. They know that you will participate in sports - 75% of the regiment does.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2010
- Messages
- 5,851
While I'm SURE that you know it is not true, it sure LOOKS like you're ASSUMING that since Navy sends 37.5% to aviation that therefore 67.5% were rejected from aviation.
That assumption or implication could not be further from the truth. Many, many USNA grads do not want aviation for any number of reasons. Personally I wanted a gray ship (!) even though I almost aced the aviation selection and had 20/15 vision. I was just reminded of my love for the sea in the last few days while watching ships from a Florida beach. My son who majored in Aeronautical Eng chose Subs because that's what he wanted even though he had the eyes and the scores to get aviation.
For the record, in my class, I don't know of a SINGLE person who wanted aviation and had the eyes and scores needed that did NOT get it. these days, the service assignment system is somewhat different but the numbers of folks who want aviation and don't get it is pretty small and many times smaller than the 67.5% that your statement implies.
hopefulmominla
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2011
- Messages
- 138
Right the 37.5% isn’t of people who wanted it it’s of the entire class. Which is why some of the assertions of you’re more likely to get aviation from KP seems questionable. The number of aviation billets out of USNA and USAFA are statistically significant in comparison of the other academies… so the idea that if someone really wants to be a pilot they should pick KP over USNA or USAFA is plain silly when looking at the numbers.
If you want to be a merchant marine go to KP … if you want to join another service go to that academy, if you don’t get in go ROTC or prep for a year and reapply