Arizona Governor signs new immigration law, Obama disagrees with the states rights?

[Luigi59]

excerpt from USC section 1304:

e) Personal possession of registration or receipt card; penalties
Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times
carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate
of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to
him pursuant to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails
to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of
a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined
not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or
both.

It is already a federal law. I don't see how the federal government can cause uproar about a law it already has on the books.

Where are the laws requiring dark-skinned Spanish-speaking American citizens carry identification papers to prove they are US citizens?

None exist? Than tell me what's going to happen when the policia stop a dark-skinned Spanish-speaking American citizen and demand "your papers, please"?

He will have to prove he is an American citizen, yet the Anglo blue-eyed blonde valley girl with him will not.

Read the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment one more time, and tell me how it doesn't violate it?

 

[LineInTheSand]

Where are the laws requiring dark-skinned Spanish-speaking American citizens carry identification papers to prove they are US citizens?

None exist? Than tell me what's going to happen when the policia stop a dark-skinned Spanish-speaking American citizen and demand "your papers, please"?

He will have to prove he is an American citizen, yet the Anglo blue-eyed blonde valley girl with him will not.

Read the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment one more time, and tell me how it doesn't violate it?

There is no dark-skinned spanish speak demand....


If someone is fair skinned, red head pulled over without identification, driving on the wrong side of the road, screaming bloody murder with a bottle of Jim Bean in the seat next to her, and there is reason to believe she may not be in the country legally, then she will be required to prove that she is.

All of the violations of the Equal Protection clause are MADE up by people like Attorney General Holder, who haven't even read the ten-page bill.

This isn't that hard to understand. No matter how CNN slants their headlines or politicians who find time to give interviews and make uneducated statesments without reading or being briefed on the actual law.

"Can't go get ice cream without being harrassed".....

Why would they? the federal government's going to tax beautiful sweet ice cream soon as well. Of course, we've already made a general judgement about the ability of local law enforcement to do their jobs and race......ask the Cambridge Police.

I believe we had a "Beer Summit" to discuss that...

 

[Pima]

This law exists in my county in VA, and if you go around here, people are scratching their head why the uproar over AZ? If you read the WAPO in the comment section it is constantly being addressed, and even from legal aliens they see no problem with this law, but then again they are legal.

First off, if you have a green card, by law you are required to have it with you at all times. Thus, show me the papers, is a red herring. Legal Aliens must show their papers when approached, and that includes flying.

Secondly, because in VA you cannot get a DL without "papers" or birth certificate, the person pulled over will be checked more thoroughly since they are driving without a license.

There are no road blocks. The county has not become a county where the police do witch hunts. The police are no different today than they were 5 yrs ago before it was implemented...the only "traps" you will find are speed traps and HOV traps (slugging ---it is a VA thing).

I also agree it is disgraceful that our President and AG weigh in against this without ever reading the bill. I am not understanding where the outcry is that Holder states things without investigating the information first. Anyone in any job anywhere would be fired for making decisions without knowing all the facts.

I am not stating that the law is lawful or unlawful, just stating why is the media silent regarding Holder when he stated he had not read the bill?

Anybody wondering today about Michelle Obama's school visit yesterday when the 2nd grader stated "MY MOM DOESN'T HAVE PAPERS"? How will that play out, will the school and county now have to get officially involved because of her statement? I am betting if they do, it is because the media picked up on the story and wants to see what this administration will do. I feel for the child and her family, because if an 8 yr old knows about this, then you know it is being spoken about openly at home and it is weighing heavily on the family's mind.

 

[Luigi59]

There is no dark-skinned spanish speak demand....

If someone is fair skinned, red head pulled over without identification, driving on the wrong side of the road, screaming bloody murder with a bottle of Jim Bean in the seat next to her, and there is reason to believe she may not be in the country legally, then she will be required to prove that she is.

Who said anything about driving?

 

[Luigi59]

This law exists in my county in VA, and if you go around here, people are scratching their head why the uproar.

First off, if you have a green card, by law you are required to have it with you at all times. Thus, show me the papers, is a red herring. Legal Aliens must show their papers when approached, and that includes flying.

Does the law in VA require US citizens to carry identification papers with them at all times?

 

[Luigi59]

I also agree it is disgraceful that our President and AG weigh in against this without ever reading the bill. I am not understanding where the outcry is that Holder states things without investigating the information first. Anyone in any job anywhere would be fired for making decisions without knowing all the facts.

I am not stating that the law is lawful or unlawful, just stating why is the media silent regarding Holder when he stated he had not read the bill?

How many senators and congressmen do you believe read the entire Health Care bill before voting against it?

All of them? Some of them? None of them?

How is Holder's and Obama's objection to an unread bill any different?

 

[Pima]

Does the law in VA require US citizens to carry identification papers with them at all times?

In a convoluted way it does. For example, to obtain a DL you must show proof of citizenship. This requires 2 forms of id. One MUST be either a birth certificate or a Passport. The second is your SS card. Thus, if you are driving age, you are carrying an identification paper with you. You must also show residency and insurance.

The second is to get a job even at 16, the employer will ask for both the same forms of id. Thus, you can't even get a job here in VA without showing that proof. They will accept a DL as one of the three, i.e. show birth certificate, DL and SS. However, it is still showing papers.

If you are like my brother, an albino, who in this state cannot drive, you go to the DMV and get a county id card. The reason you would do this is because it is typical when you are 21 age frame to be id for alcohol purposes. The id requirements for this are identical to a DL. So, again, even an ALBINO must show papers.

As far as our elected officials reading or not reading bills is moot to me. The thought that because our elected officials didn't read the health care bill, Obama and Holder should also get a pass, just underlines what is wrong with our govt. How many of us said to our children, I don't care what Bobby Joe did, if he jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge would you do it too? We do not accept that behavior/thought process from our 8 yr olds, why would we accept it from our govt?

 

[LineInTheSand]

Who said anything about driving?

Fair skinned read head breaks into a 7-11, holds attendant at gun point, walks off at a brisk pace.....


Luigi, I'm going to assume your child will conduct some kind of immigration enforcement (Alien Migrant Interdiction Operations). Yes, you will interdict children and families and you will feel bad for their situation. In the end you're still enforcing the law.

You will also interdict murderers who are trying to get away from their country because they killed their girlfriends and don't want to go to jail (personal experience).

If you don't think there is more than one of those walking around, interacting with you like they are normal, safe individuals, you are crazy.

You break a law, you prove who you are....this isn't revolutionary or ground-breaking.

 

[Luigi59]

In a convoluted way it does.

So I cannot walk down the street legally in VA without carrying identification proving I am an American citizen?

I'd like to see that law.

For example, to obtain a DL you must show proof of citizenship. This requires 2 forms of id. One MUST be either a birth certificate or a Passport. The second is your SS card. Thus, if you are driving age, you are carrying an identification paper with you. You must also show residency and insurance.

AGAIN with the driving. Let's leave automobiles out of the picture, they have NO relevance in this discussion. None. Not one bit.

The second is to get a job even at 16, the employer will ask for both the same forms of id. Thus, you can't even get a job here in VA without showing that proof. They will accept a DL as one of the three, i.e. show birth certificate, DL and SS. However, it is still showing papers.

Red herring Alert #2 - Jobs? Who is talking about proving ID when applying for a job?

As far as our elected officials reading or not reading bills is moot to me.

My apologies, I thought it was a big deal to you, because in your post above you describe such behavior (forming opinions without reading bills) as "disgraceful."

 

[LineInTheSand]

How many senators and congressmen do you believe read the entire Health Care bill before voting against it?

All of them? Some of them? None of them?

How is Holder's and Obama's objection to an unread bill any different?

The difference of about 1,990 pages....and threatening action against an action a STATE has the power to take...

 

[LineInTheSand]

So I cannot walk down the street legally in VA without carrying identification proving I am an American citizen?

I'd like to see that law.



AGAIN with the driving. Let's leave automobiles out of the picture, they have NO relevance in this discussion. None. Not one bit.



Red herring Alert #2 - Jobs? Who is talking about proving ID when applying for a job?



My apologies, I thought it was a big deal to you, because in your post above you describe such behavior (forming opinions without reading bills) as "disgraceful."

I have yet to see what the actual objection to the law is, which I assume by now you've read, right Luigi?

 

[Luigi59]

Fair skinned read head breaks into a 7-11, holds attendant at gun point, walks off at a brisk pace.....


Luigi, I'm going to assume your child will conduct some kind of immigration enforcement (Alien Migrant Interdiction Operations). Yes, you will interdict children and families and you will feel bad for their situation. In the end you're still enforcing the law.

You will also interdict murderers who are trying to get away from their country because they killed their girlfriends and don't want to go to jail (personal experience).

If you don't think there is more than one of those walking around, interacting with you like they are normal, safe individuals, you are crazy.

You break a law, you prove who you are....this isn't revolutionary or ground-breaking.

And those who are not breaking laws are going to be exempt from proving their immigration status?

SCENARIO - 7 darker-skinned men speaking in Spanish standing outside Home Depot at 5AM waiting for a ride. The first 3 men are 100% US-born American citizens, the next 2 are their illegal immigrant brothers, just illegally crossed the border last week. The last 2 men in line are LEGAL aliens, possessing valid IDs, visas and green cards.

Are you stating the the first 3 men, all 3 LEGAL US-BORN CITIZENS, are not going to be required to carry identification papers proving they are US citizens if the police come to investigate a loitering allegation?

Are the police going to demand their papers?

What if they don't have them?

As there is no requirement for any US citizen to carry identification papers on them while in the United States, these men will be detained, forced to prove they are US citizens and thus be denied equal protection under the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.

Because if that same line forms tomorrow at Home Depot with 7 white-skinned red-headed and blonde men, and the same police roll up tomorrow morning, none of them are going to be forced to show proof of citizenship.

 

[Luigi59]

I have yet to see what the actual objection to the law is, which I assume by now you've read, right Luigi?

Whose objections to the law, mine? I've stated my objections - it's unconstitutional to demand one group of US citizens to prove their immigrations status while not requiring others to do the same. It will be enforced with no other basis other than race. The police will extensively question and interrogate those who "look Mexican" and will not do so with those who do not. Thus it violates the Equal Protection Clause.

Of course I have read it, twice.

Do you need a link?

 

[LineInTheSand]

Who objections to the law, mine? I've stated my objections - it's unconstitutional to demand one group of US citizens to prove their immigrations status while not requiring others to do the same. It will be enforced with no other basis other than race. The police will extensively question and interrogate those who "look Mexican" and will not do so with those who do not. Thus it violates the Equal Protection Clause.

Of course I have read it, twice.

Do you need a link?

WHEERE IS THIS IN THE LAW? Please quote "Look Mexican" in the law so I can find it....because I'm not.

 

[LineInTheSand]

And those who are not breaking laws are going to be exempt from proving their immigration status?

SCENARIO - 7 darker-skinned men speaking in Spanish standing outside Home Depot at 5AM waiting for a ride. The first 3 men are 100% US-born American citizens, the next 2 are their illegal immigrant brothers, just illegally crossed the border last week. The last 2 men in line are LEGAL aliens, possessing valid IDs, visas and green cards.

Are you stating the the first 3 men, all 3 LEGAL US-BORN CITIZENS, are not going to be required to carry identification papers proving they are US citizens if the police come to investigate a loitering allegation?

Are the police going to demand their papers?

What if they don't have them?

As there is no requirement for any US citizen to carry identification papers on them while in the United States, these men will be detained, forced to prove they are US citizens and thus be denied equal protection under the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.

Because if that same line forms tomorrow at Home Depot with 7 white-skinned red-headed and blonde men, and the same police roll up tomorrow morning, none of them are going to be forced to show proof of citizenship.

And exactly what law was broken here?

 

[LineInTheSand]

Is this the "dangerous" section.....the one limiting the law to the AZ and US Constitution?

A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,
31 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY
32 CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF
33 THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR
34 ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.

 

[Pima]

Luigi,

It is a big deal to me that they don't read the bills, HOWEVER, this is not about Health care or our MOCS. This is about Holder and a 10 page bill. Your point was that the MOCs do it so why can't they. My response was, I don't care what they(MOC-health care) did, we are talking about YOU (Holder-AZ law). Both are wrong, and I will not accept an excuse or defense of diverting the point...they did it, so why can't I is not acceptable to me. This thread is about AZ, specifically now about Holder and Obama, it is not about how our officials play the 8 yr old game of they did it so can I.

You are correct, you do not have to prove when applying, but in VA you must prove papers when you are hired. SO how is that red herring? Want a job in VA you must prove citizenship or legal alien. How will you survive if you don't prove the right to be here...i.e. papers.

You keep talking about people walking around with papers. Let me ask you a question, when you leave your home, do you not have some form of id? Would you not agree that is a "form" of papers? In my kids wallets, they have their SS card, DL, military ID and student ID. Aren't those id's actually "papers"? Before you answer let me also reiterate how you can register your child in school.

1. BIRTH CERTIFICATE of child
2. SS card
3. PARENTS ID...DL, Passport, Military ID, County ID
4. Proof of RESIDENCY...DEED of house or Rental agreement....here's the twist....due to the PATRIOT ACT to close on either of these deals, you MUST show a valid PICTURE id...costco card does not count.
5. 2nd Proof of Residency...electric, credit, insurance, etc with the corresponding address.

You cannot register your child at our HS without ALL 5 of those documents. Trust me, we only registered them less than 2 yrs ago, and I am anal regarding their school records. Each one of my kids have specific folders with copies of everything, that includes registration, shot records, transcripts, etc.

Thus, even as a kid in HS in our county, a child with a school id card has proven they are here legally due to THEIR parents status.

 

[LineInTheSand]

As for the healthcare bill, remember the Democrats pushed that through before people read....Pelosi's "We have to pass it to know what's in it" would be a fairly clear indication of that.

 

[Pima]

I found this on Drudge and it made me chuckle. Let me state I understand why they are doing this, and I agree with it, but comical because Obama is against showing papers.

The White House appears to be laying the groundwork for President Barack Obama to shake the hand of each senior at Kalamazoo Central High School’s commencement ceremony next month.

Seniors are being asked to provide their birthdates, Social Security numbers and citizen status to the Secret Service so background checks could be performed. Such a check is required for anyone who gets within an arm’s length of the president, students were told at their senior breakfast Friday.

I am curious about one thing...what will the Secret Service do if they find an illegal alien child...will they hand them over to ICE?

 

[Luigi59]

Is this the "dangerous" section.....the one limiting the law to the AZ and US Constitution?

A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,
31 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY
32 CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF
33 THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR
34 ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.

Well, there's Fantasy Land, and then there's the real world of Law Enforcement.

Look, there's a problem that needs to be fixed, this law is not the answer.

Buiild a moat, build a fence, electrify it, fill the moat with crocodiles, lay a mine-field 100 yards wide, then build another wall manned with machine gun turrets - I'm 100% in favor of that.

Secure the border -

Pass unconstitutional laws -

No one here is changing anyone else's opinion, I believe the law will go the SCOTUS, we'll let them decide.