Arizona Governor signs new immigration law, Obama disagrees with the states rights?

flieger83 said:
What upsets me is the open "total distrust, fear, and cynical view" folks seem to have. It's not naive to trust in the law and the "normalcy" of the HUGE majority of people: of all ethnic backgrounds. Will there be "questionable" folks? OF COURSE. Oh duh, that's normal NOW with ALL our laws.

But to equate this to a police state is not naive, its simply fear mongering. And references to the Nazi state with your comment to the "Secret State Police" or, as you point out: "Geheime Staatspolizei" also known, to English speakers as "The Gestapo" is totally out of line, IMHO and insulting.

The sad thing is this will never be law because there is too much money involved now that will fight it on any ground that can be found. And the PC community of the states and the power of the polical action groups, will ensure that those in office and on the bench create good reasons to not allow this.

So what WILL happen is a lot of bellicose fearmongering, open lying (see that already in the media), and more divisiveness in our nation. And in the end, the only real impact it'll have is to push the present government into another "Amnesty for All."

When does this end? When do we stop throwing money away taking care of other nations folks illegally in our nation? We are virtually the ONLY nation on earth that will spend itself into bankruptcy for the illegal immigrant, and yet won't take care of our own poor/indigent/disadvantaged citizens.

No Luigi, it's not naiveté. It's an abiding faith in the rule of law, in the foundations of our nation, and the belief, however misplaced, that the citizens of this country will by and large do the right thing.

FYI...I have been stopped by a LEO...and during the "contact" he said "Do you have any weapons with you? And I said yes. He said he needed to see them and I said no he didn't. He said he DID to ensure they were legal...I again said NO, you don't; they're mine. And after he looked long and hard at me, he left. I had answered his questions honestly and he had no probable cause to search. Similar in essence to what you fear and yet the rule of law prevailed because...

I was within my rights, and he was fishing. Do I think this will occur with the new law? Yes, as it does with ALL laws. Do I fear that? No. Why? Because if they stopped me and after a while said they suspected I was not legal...I would simply say "I am legal." If they asked for paperwork to show it, then I can tell them:

a. I'm a citizen and I'm not required to carry any paperwork. If driving, I must have my DL, that's the law. And
I am required to show it. In AZ that will end the discussion.
b. I'm a legal visitor in the country. FYI...it's Federal Law that ALL visitors to our nation carry proof of their legal entry to the USA with them.
c. I'm not answering any questions...expect to be delayed while investigation begins.

Oh and by the way, a few paragraphs down in SB1070 is the part about the legal right and expectation to SUE all LEO's, etc., that misuse this authority. THAT has more folks in AZ worried than the other parts...because they're afraid some LEO's won't be smart and will generate lawsuits. Another reason I believe that they'll be SUPER careful about the rules of engagement.

Again, I guess we'll agree to disagree on this.

But that's BOTH our rights and something I've defended for a long time and will continue to do so. :thumb:

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
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Great post Steve, you are very articulate and put this "game" into perspective...I'm an old dumb Marine and appreciate your refined answer :biggrin: :thumb:

Too bad for political expediency and intellectual honesty.

For the record, I think Luigi is a fine man but mistaken in this discussion.
 
sook said:
I disagree with those supporting this law. I do agree that this is complicated problem and that it is not entirely the fault of the illegal immigrants or their families. For those who say that it is not a big deal to show papers/ID when I have done nothing wrong, I strongly disagree. I detest being treated like a potential shoplifter everytime I walk into a store and I also hate being treated like a potential terrorist when I board an airplane. Our freedom and the presumption of innocence is part of what makes our country great. This law edges way to close to undermining these basic rights for all.
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Ummm...unfortunatelly this is entirely the fault of illegal immigrants and their families.
 
I am going to make the case that this law will tie the hands of law enforcement.

This law FORCES all law enforcement officers to arrest and hold all known illegal immigrants regardless of the circumstances.
When the police are trying to put together a *violent criminal* case - murder, attempted murder, drug trafficking etc.......
they often rely on witnesses. When witnesses don't talk - it's difficult to get a conviction. If your witness won't talk because he has overstayed his Visa or was brought here as a two year old or for whatever reason he is here undocumented - this can jeopardize many legal cases.

So, the result will be holding cells full of citizens who are being held until they can prove they are a citizen and illegal immigrants taking up the local and state police time when they could be out solving crimes.

This is one of those laws that looks promising on the surface and sounds like a good idea to solve a complex problem. It is neither. No way is this law the solution for Arizona. It will not reduce the flow. In my community there have been illegal immigrants picked up and deported numerous times - somehow they end up coming back to the same place. Where there is a will there is a way and people who will risk their lives walking through the desert will not be intimidated by this.
OTOH - there exists the real possibility that a number of legitimate US Citzens would be picked up and held because they were "without papers".

Steve - can you please elaborate on this in detail:
When do we stop throwing money away taking care of other nations folks illegally in our nation? We are virtually the ONLY nation on earth that will spend itself into bankruptcy for the illegal immigrant, and yet won't take care of our own poor/indigent/disadvantaged citizens
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How is it that you think illegal immigrants are getting more in government services that poor and disadvantaged US Citizens?
 
Just_A_Mom said:
Your flaw in this argument is that you are making AZ sb1070 about being stopped while driving or riding in a motor vehicle. The courts have pretty much upheld driving a car as a privilege and not a right.
However, his law extends far beyond that. If anyone walking down the street "looks" like they may be an illegal immigrant they must be detained until they can prove they are not.
Sorry, but I have no idea what an illegal immigrant looks like - do you?
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What about good folks wanting to attend their Congressman's "Town Hall" meeting and being asked for "Papers Please" to attend for National Security? LOL, you can't make this stuff up!

http://www.breitbart.tv/congressman...tuents-id-before-allowing-town-hall-question/
 
Just_A_Mom said:
I am going to make the case that this law will tie the hands of law enforcement.

This law FORCES all law enforcement officers to arrest and hold all known illegal immigrants regardless of the circumstances.
When the police are trying to put together a *violent criminal* case - murder, attempted murder, drug trafficking etc.......
they often rely on witnesses. When witnesses don't talk - it's difficult to get a conviction. If your witness won't talk because he has overstayed his Visa or was brought here as a two year old or for whatever reason he is here undocumented - this can jeopardize many legal cases.

So, the result will be holding cells full of citizens who are being held until they can prove they are a citizen and illegal immigrants taking up the local and state police time when they could be out solving crimes.

This is one of those laws that looks promising on the surface and sounds like a good idea to solve a complex problem. It is neither. No way is this law the solution for Arizona. It will not reduce the flow. In my community there have been illegal immigrants picked up and deported numerous times - somehow they end up coming back to the same place. Where there is a will there is a way and people who will risk their lives walking through the desert will not be intimidated by this.
OTOH - there exists the real possibility that a number of legitimate US Citzens would be picked up and held because they were "without papers".

Steve - can you please elaborate on this in detail:

How is it that you think illegal immigrants are getting more in government services that poor and disadvantaged US Citizens?
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Oh JAM...the stories I can tell...here's a few "for instances..."

I work at an AFB in SoCAL.

Illegals (undocumented students) are afforded FREE education in COLLEGE...just show up, don't speak English well and when asked for documentation, say you don't have any and by California LAW, you will be given free education! Don't take my word for it, check it out yourself...but you'll have to call the colleges as they don't publicize it. But several years ago when it was revealed there was a LARGE uproar and the CA legislature said "we can't turn away needy immigrants..."

NUMEROUS hospitals have closed in the LA basin since I've been working at March...no, I didn't go visit them all and they give up :wink:, but they ran out of money because in CA, you can't turn away a patient. So...the ER's are flooded...the patients are uninsured and according the even the local media, the VAST majority are undocumented and the state picks up 100% of the bill. According to the LA County Board of Supervisors, "undocumented immigrants" cost them several $B (yes, Billion with a B) a year in costs.

Here's a quote from Supervisor Michael Anotonovich, he's on the LA County Board of Supervisors (has been for 29 years):

Within this County’s health care delivery system, illegals are being treated at a cost of nearly $500 million dollars a year. The cost alone to our Criminal Justice system for the 25 percent of the illegals that up the jail population exceeds 250 million dollars a year. Additionally, illegals collect over $264million in CALWORKS payments and $312 million in food stamp allocations These costs alone exceed one billion dollars annually – excluding the cost of education.

Nearly 100,000 children of 60,000 undocumented parents receive aid – for a total of 160,000 If incorporated into a city, it would be the 6th largest city in Los Angeles county Also, one in fifteen people in California is an illegal immigrant – costing our State $3 billion dollars annually.

That's just a little bit...it's all over the TV and radio over there every day (it gets VERY old.) The sad part is, much of this is afforded to poor citizens but a LOT that is given to illegals is NOT to citizens. Again, to give you a complete list I'd have to go online and dig it all out. But when I hear it time and again on the radio and TV from state legislature members in LA county and folks in Sacramento...I'm glad I live in AZ and only commute to SoCal!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
Re: Flieger and Luigi

Maximus,

I completely concur with your statement re: Luigi.

I am completely convinced he's an honorable man and have no doubt we'd have a good time together over a cold beverage.

We agree to disagree on this topic. That's fine and part of what makes this nation unique in the world: the free ability to exchange ideas, openly debate them, holler at each other, get red in the face, scream a little...

And then go have a cold beer together and laugh! :thumb:

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
Maximus said:
For the record, I think Luigi is a fine man but mistaken in this discussion.
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flieger83 said:
Maximus,

I completely concur with your statement re: Luigi.

I am completely convinced he's an honorable man and have no doubt we'd have a good time together over a cold beverage.

We agree to disagree on this topic. That's fine and part of what makes this nation unique in the world: the free ability to exchange ideas, openly debate them, holler at each other, get red in the face, scream a little...

And then go have a cold beer together and laugh! :thumb:
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I think we agree on more than you think. :eek:

We agree that there is a problem. We agree that undocumented immigrants are straining the resources of the Govt, and that the continued influx could provide an easy entry point for terrorists. I believe in stopping their entry at the border--building the biggest, strongest, most secure fence anyone has ever seen--it can be done, and at a much lower cost than spending the money on the social programs enjoyed by the illegal residents.

Where we differ - I am a Constitutionalist. I believe that whenever there is controversy about a proposed law or rule or program - consult the old yellowed paper and see what it says.

The recent changes in the wording are heading in the right direction, I have no problem with (in the course of questioning a suspected criminal) uncovering their residency status of a prisoner, and if found to be here illegally, deporting them. I also see a big problem with rewarding illegal immigrants with jobs, government payments, and this "free college" benefit.

But if they are here, in the USA, under our jurisdiction - we are responsible for them. They are subject to the provisions, rules, and yes, protections of that old yellowed paper. Even the illegal ones. We can't torture them, deny them a lawyer if needed, prosecute them twice, subject them to ex post facto laws, etc - nor can we ignore that the 4th and 14th Amendments apply to them as well.

For the record, I prefer ice cold Makers Mark over beer. :thumb:
 
Flieger - I never said undocumented's don't get any Federal assistance but you said they get MORE than poor US Citizens. There is much more a Citizen receives.

Look - I agree with Luigi on this. It does Arizona no good to pass a law that will tie them up in courts and be rendered useless.
The problem needs to be solved at the root. Undocumented's come here for the most part for work and family.
Perhaps it's time for a "real" social security card. You know, one that is actually "secure" not just a flimsy piece of paper. Time for immigration to make routine checks on employers and dig out the workers with false id's.

I live in a city with a large immigrant population. ICE is free to go into any employer at any time and examine I-9's and match them with employees. Yet, they rarely do.
Make a requirement that employees update their I-9's periodically.
As long as we have certain industries and occupations that need and want undocumented workers - the problem will exist.
 
But if they are here, in the USA, under our jurisdiction - we are responsible for them. They are subject to the provisions, rules, and yes, protections of that old yellowed paper. Even the illegal ones. We can't torture them, deny them a lawyer if needed, prosecute them twice, subject them to ex post facto laws, etc - nor can we ignore that the 4th and 14th Amendments apply to them as well.

For the record, I prefer ice cold Makers Mark over beer. :thumb:
Completely concur! :thumb:

Well except the Makers Mark...although, for a Bourbon, that's not bad. We actually had to study them in grad school as a fine business that's survived where they really shouldn't have. Think of their "nasty, BIG neighbors: Jack and Jim.

I'm more of a Glenkinchie, Bunnahabhain type... :biggrin:

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
LineInTheSand said:
The law toughens down on that as well.
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How does it do that? Does it provide for MORE ICE agents to go into workplaces and inspect documents on file?
Will AZ LEO be standing outside the picking fields questioning all workers as to the legality of their residence in the US?
 
Just_A_Mom said:
How does it do that? Does it provide for MORE ICE agents to go into workplaces and inspect documents on file?
Will AZ LEO be standing outside the picking fields questioning all workers as to the legality of their residence in the US?
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JAM,

The law as written does NONE of this.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
State law will not direct federal agencies. It toughens PENALTIES for business that hire illegal immigrants.

If people are too disgusted, move to AZ and vote. If San Fran made me angry enough, I would...but they don't, because San Fran and Arizona laws don't affect me.
 
I've been monitoring this thread, but now wanted to add my 2 cents. I'm all for treating people with respect & dignity; however, I live in San Diego County (right across the border from Mexico), and unless you live in a region that is directly impacted by the influx of illegal immigrants, you really can't criticize AZ for wanting to make the federal government ENFORCE THE FEDERAL LAW that is already in place.

Our own Border Patrol agents are directed that they cannot enforce their own rules. You may have seen the recent news story of the now 17-yr old illegal alien who just got 40 years for shooting & kiilling a BP agent last year.

Our own city & county law enforcement officers (LEOs) do not willy nilly go searching for illegals to deport--this is only done when illegals are arrested for a crime. Local LEOs don't have the manpower--and it's not their job--to determine if someone walking down the street or drivign a car is here illegally. BUT, if someone breaks a law and the LEO learns that the person is here illegally, then the person is turned over to BP for deportation--AFTER any court process.

Not all illegal aliens come here to break the law--they come here to earn a better living for their families. The problem lies with Mexico & the other Latino countries that don't or can't offer a better wage for their own citizens. Plus, having people work in the USA & send money home each week supports the economies of Mexico, et al. The root of the problem is that hundreds of thousands of people leaving their own birth countries to find a better way of life here because their own countries can't/won't help their own lower class.

I do not think it is violating someone's civil right to request that you provide a SSN or some sort of tax ID# to obtain a driver's license. It is NOT a civil right to drive - it is a privilege that must be earned.

Also, you cannot be denied emergency medical care in CA no matter where you come from. BUT, if you are a US citizen, then you are responsible for the medical bills you incur. If you are here illegally, the state/local government pays the medical bill.

Some critics of the AZ law have said that those here illegally do pay their fair share by paying state sales tax, pay into Social Security, etc. so they should be offered the same benefits that citizens do. That is a load of malarky! So, if I travel to German, England, or France and pay similar taxes, does that mean I can demand immediate citizenship?!? I don't think so.

There were May Day rallies throughout the state/country on Saturday. It was reported on our local news that at our San Diego rally the human rights groups were demanding IMMEDIATE citizenship, IMMEDIATE health benefits, IMMEDIATE BETTER PAYING JOBS, and IMMEDIATE education benefits for all illegal immigrants. That really got my blood boiling! I'm sorry, but my own MOTHER couldn't afford healthcare until she turned 65! My own SON can't afford paying for his education and will be taking out student loans (for the portion we can't pay for). I'd LOVE for all of my friends/family to have a better paying job, but we're in a RECESSION! I thought it incredulous that the illegals were asking for things THAT OUR OWN CITIZENS DON'T EVEN HAVE in this tough economy!

So, for all of you who think what AZ did is horrible, then move to AZ, or even CA, and see what it's like for your state & local government to pay for EVERYONE. Or, send ALL of the illegal immigrants to the sanctuary cities and see how long those cities can support everyone. (As a side note, the San Diego City Council is going to vote today against the AZ state law and keep San Diego a sanctuary city. So, that means our local governmental services will be pushed to the limit...again.)

This great country was built on immigration, and we need immigration, but it must be done LEGALLY and with planning. Otherwise, we have legal & healthcare systems that are overburdened.
 
LineInTheSand said:
State law will not direct federal agencies. It toughens PENALTIES for business that hire illegal immigrants.
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okay but they have to go after them first. they can make all the tough penalties they want but if the feds don't go after them it won't matter.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
okay but they have to go after them first. they can make all the tough penalties they want but if the feds don't go after them it won't matter.
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I think you're missing the point this law. LOCAL law enforcment within the state of Arizona are required by the new law, not ICE. They are able to "go after them".
 
JAM:

I think many people use the driving law stop as an example since most people in the US will never come in contact with law enforcement personnel other than a "Probable Cause" stop for a driving violation. I mean how many holdups, bank robberies, assaults, break-in's or house invasions have you seen lately in comparison to your local newspaper listing of DUI stops? Many people, including the courts, disagree on whether driving a car is a right or a privilege but the Supreme Court does not.

Both sides of the Supreme Court Decision regarding Michigan v Seitz agreed that DUI sobriety checkpoints violated Constitutional Rights.

In the majority decision former Chief Justice Rehnquist admitted that DUI sobriety checkpoints do, in fact, constitute a prohibited search and "seizure" within the language of the Fourth Amendment and therefore a violation of Constitutional Rights. Rehnquist, however, stated in his opinion that the "minimal intrusion on individual liberties" must be "weighed" against the common good. What is the "common good".

Justice Brennan disagreed. "That stopping every car might make it easier to prevent drunk driving..is an insufficient justification for abandoning the requirement of individualized suspicion...The most disturbing aspect of the Court's decision today is that it appears to give no weight to the citizen's interest from suspicionless investigatory seizures." The Constitution does not make exceptions.

So the SUPREMES have decided that driving is a right but subject to restrictions for the "common good" As I have stated before, the SUPREMES are not ruled by precedent. If they were we would have many strange laws on the books today. Eleven States have ruled that sobriety checkpoints are illegal under their State Constitution and are prohibited until challenged and accepted for review. This only emphasizes that the most important prerogative of the President is the appointment of Supreme Court Justices.
 
Just remember that laws are capricious. Even a US Citizen, on US soil, entering the US through Customs does not have all the rights guaranteed by the Constitution until they clear. Have you ever seen anyone refuse to open their bag upon request citing their rights under the Constitution? A person entering the US illegally has more rights.:shake:
 
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