Change for West Point

"I, _____, appointed a _____ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."

That is the oath that Lee willfully broke.

I support acknowledging his tenure as Superintendent at the Academy as a point of history.

However, I also believe that relics donated by "Lost Cause" sympathizers, such as the portrait of Lee in Confederate uniform, do not belong at the Academy and never have. Traitors should not be glorified.
 
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DTT!FSA! said:
"I, _____, appointed a _____ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."

That is the oath that Lee willfully broke.

I support acknowledging his tenure as Superintendent at the Academy as a point of history.

However, I also believe that relics donated by "Lost Cause" sympathizers, such as the portrait of Lee in Confederate uniform, do not belong at the Academy and never have. Traitors should not be glorified.
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Okay...

Research history...find out where citizen allegiance was in 1860. It was to their home state, not the federal government. While the oath of 1830 that you cite was as stated, members were free to resign, which Lee and many other USMA graduates did to avoid raising their arms against their home state.

Lee did not break his oath, he resigned his commission with the comment that he could not raise his sword against his native land: Virginia.
 
flieger83 said:
Okay...

Research history...find out where citizen allegiance was in 1860. It was to their home state, not the federal government. While the oath of 1830 that you cite was as stated, members were free to resign, which Lee and many other USMA graduates did to avoid raising their arms against their home state.

Lee did not break his oath, he resigned his commission with the comment that he could not raise his sword against his native land: Virginia.
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Bacon and soup. Bacon and soup. Bacon and soup.
 
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flieger83 said:
Okay...

Research history...find out where citizen allegiance was in 1860. It was to their home state, not the federal government. While the oath of 1830 that you cite was as stated, members were free to resign, which Lee and many other USMA graduates did to avoid raising their arms against their home state.

Lee did not break his oath, he resigned his commission with the comment that he could not raise his sword against his native land: Virginia.
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Full disclosure: I am against erasing any part of the Civil War, or "The War Between the States" as it was called in my home, from our memory or present view. I am against applying our 21st century sensibilities to people born generations before us. Three of my G-Grandfathers fought for the confederacy. I still have copies of The Confederate Veteran that belonged to one of them. As a kid, we visited Stonewall Jackson's grave in Lexington, VA as he was married to my Grandmother's Great Aunt. I could go on and on.

Mostly, I am immensely proud of this country and do not shy away from any of its history, even its skeletons and dark moments. We don't erase figures from our history the way many other countries do. Our willingness to keep them in full view is a major element of our strength.

Robert E. Lee was about as complicated a man as ever walked, and a figure in American History worth studying and remembering. He was full of personal qualities worthy of emulation, especially by Military Officers of any era. That being the case, there was more to the quote you paraphrase:

Mr. Blair, I look upon secession as anarchy. If I owned the four millions of slaves in the South, I would sacrifice them all to the Union; but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native State?
Responding to Francis Preston Blair after he relayed an offer to make Lee major-general to command the defense of Washington D.C.

As I read it, he was at the time loyal to the Union and--as a learned Military man--against anarchy and in favor of good order. He had a choice to resign his commission and move back to his farm or to resign his commission and join and lead a rebellion against the Union, resulting in more deaths than any previous war. I can't keep my mind from wandering to Ukraine and considering the choices facing native Russian speaking members of the Ukrainian military.

I think it's a legitimate topic to discuss how and where to memorialize Gen. Lee and other CSA Generals. Should their monuments and statues outnumber those of Grant, Pershing, Eisenhower, Bradley, and Nimitz?
 
flieger83 said:
Okay...

Research history...find out where citizen allegiance was in 1860. It was to their home state, not the federal government. While the oath of 1830 that you cite was as stated, members were free to resign, which Lee and many other USMA graduates did to avoid raising their arms against their home state.

Lee did not break his oath, he resigned his commission with the comment that he could not raise his sword against his native land: Virginia.
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You can argue that Lee did not break his oath and that he was released from any obligation thereto upon his resignation. However, you cannot successfully argue that he was not a traitor as defined in the Constitution:

Article III, Section 3, Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

cb7893 said:
Mostly, I am immensely proud of this country and do not shy away from any of its history, even its skeletons and dark moments. We don't erase figures from our history the way many other countries do. Our willingness to keep them in full view is a major element of our strength.
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Agree 100%. Acknowledge the warts and blemishes, while not justifying or condoning them. In order to learn from mistakes, it is necessary to recognize that the mistakes exist and resolve not to repeat them in the future.

cb7893 said:
Robert E. Lee was about as complicated a man as ever walked, and a figure in American History worth studying and remembering.
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Concur. I don't demonize Lee, but I certainly do not endorse what I believe was a misguided course of action on his part.

cb7893 said:
As I read it, he was at the time loyal to the Union and--as a learned Military man--against anarchy and in favor of good order. He had a choice to resign his commission and move back to his farm or to resign his commission and join and lead a rebellion against the Union, resulting in more deaths than any previous war.
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Unfortunately, he chose the latter.

cb7893 said:
I think it's a legitimate topic to discuss how and where to memorialize Gen. Lee and other CSA Generals. Should their monuments and statues outnumber those of Grant, Pershing, Eisenhower, Bradley, and Nimitz?
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The line is between memorializing historical adversaries and glorifying them. I personally believe that such exhibitions should manifest as cautionary tales, recognizing the positive attributes of the subject, while condemning, not approbating, their flaws.

As such, I am opposed to holding up individuals who actively acted against the Country's interests as role models for future generations and naming landmarks, bases, ships, etc. after them.
 
It doesn't stop here. History is being erased and there is a political reason for doing so.

I don't know what the law was in England in the late 1700s but I am pretty sure Washington engaged in what his country at the time would consider treason. His side won so he is on the money. For now...

Washington, Jefferson, Madison, all the founding father slave owners will be cancelled in the near future. Removed from money, monuments torn down, symbols of oppression in textbooks. The right people will cheer. Revisionism marches on.
 
JP4 said:
It doesn't stop here. History is being erased and there is a political reason for doing so.

I don't know what the law was in England in the late 1700s but I am pretty sure Washington engaged in what his country at the time would consider treason. His side won so he is on the money. For now...

Washington, Jefferson, Madison, all the founding father slave owners will be cancelled in the near future. Removed from money, monuments torn down, symbols of oppression in textbooks. The right people will cheer. Revisionism marches on.
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The more time goes on, the more I’m glad I grew up when I did.
Perhaps this is how each generation feels…
 
Good move and long overdue. The argument that removing statues and changing names erases is history is disingenuous, statues don't just tell history, they valorize it. There are any number of other ways to tell and remember history and vast swathes of history that we all know despite the absence of any statues to it.

Lee and others were fully within their rights to resign their commissions if they were unwilling to go to war with their home states but the day they took up arms against the union they became traitors, fighting to maintain a cruel and evil system. No amount of trying to sanitize and rewrite the nature and aims of the Confederacy can change this fact. Should they be studied, absolutely, should we be generous is our attempts to understand their contexts and motivations, sure, should they be celebrated in a place dedicated to American heroes, absolutely not.
 
A1Janitor said:
We are a collection of states. I am not sure how the losing side in a civil war are traitors. Had the North lost, would my family who fought for the North been traitors?
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I totally agree! History is History, good or bad, but to "cancel" it is just wrong! 30 years from now there will not record of the Civil War, and young people will not be taught the lessons learned. History is prone to repeat itself, and I sincerely hope that by removing all references and history of, that it does not repeat at some point in the future.
 
JP4 said:
It doesn't stop here. History is being erased and there is a political reason for doing so.
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I think I-65 and the world will be better off without this statue. Looks like Gen. Forrest's head was screwed on backwards. Gotta love the bullet hole in his thigh.

1671729627927.png


It's gonna take a lot of jackhammers or dynamite to get rid of the Confederacy's Mt. Rushmore.

1671729589750.png
 
A1Janitor said:
Lol That should be removed for public decency.
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That is exactly what happened.

en.wikipedia.org

Nathan Bedford Forrest Statue - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

I grew up in Nashville and would pass that statue several times, every time I returned to see family and friends. The local reaction to it was "WTF" on both artistic and political grounds. The benefactor was a crazy old coot, who was nonetheless very smart and took the state for a ride when it took over his land on which the Interstate was built. Since it was right next on the interstate, for years the highway department actually maintained the property at its own expense. On its backside was a railroad track which inspired one of many creative vandals to attempt to tie it to a train.

In all seriousness, if you ever go to Nashville take time to visit some of the Civil War sights. It is chock full of them. The Battles of Nashville and Franklin were major battles often overshadowed by Vicksburg, Gettysburg, Atlanta. etc. I'd be more than happy to point anyone to some out of the way points off interest.
 
cb7893 said:
That is exactly what happened.

en.wikipedia.org

Nathan Bedford Forrest Statue - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

I grew up in Nashville and would pass that statue several times, every time I returned to see family and friends. The local reaction to it was "WTF" on both artistic and political grounds. The benefactor was a crazy old coot, who was nonetheless very smart and took the state for a ride when it took over his land on which the Interstate was built. Since it was right next on the interstate, for years the highway department actually maintained the property at its own expense. On its backside was a railroad track which inspired one of many creative vandals to attempt to tie it to a train.

In all seriousness, if you ever go to Nashville take time to visit some of the Civil War sights. It is chock full of them. The Battles of Nashville and Franklin were major battles often overshadowed by Vicksburg, Gettysburg, Atlanta. etc. I'd be more than happy to point anyone to some out of the way points off interest.
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Some day I hope to take you up on that offer.
 
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