Changes to AROTC?

Vista123 said:
I agree 100% with your entire post.

a couple of things...
1.) we know how to blow up bridges, it seems what we have to improve is US military's poor performance at recognizing and reacting to cultural differences in both our adversaries and our coalition partners. This has been a bigger hurdle. Common sense says this is why we need MORE liberal arts majors in the ARMY. The Army Mission...is that the SAME as the AF or Navy mission?

2.) There needs to be a subjective part. If you are being treated unfairly you will need to learn (for the rest of your like) how to turn it around or wade through it. Luckily the cadre changes frequently so there is always a second chance for a new first impression. but if you are ranked low wherever you go....that's a problem.
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That's all fine and dandy but if that were the case we would need to cut out GPA in the OML process. You can give anecdotes about how being a General Studies or International Relations major makes you better able to converse with those with cultural differences till the cows come home but that does not matter in grand scheme of major selection. STEM majors will always be in demand within the military and out in the civilian world. I think evidence of a poly sci major being better at cultural competency than a bio-engineering major simply because of a few years of courses is SHODDY at best. These interactions mostly come down to a person's life experience and personality more than anything. I deal with combative people, drunks, druggies and every culture under the sun in the healthcare setting. Would a sociology degree help me deal with these people more than my nursing with religion minor degree? Very very doubtful, it's all about experience. At CTLT we had a PL who was working on his physics masters/PhD in a very combat oriented unit. He was a great leader, in tip top physical condition and of course smart as a whip. Would a criminal justice degree have served him better?

I agree the Army needs a good blend of majors but to determine that the Army needs MORE LA majors than it already has is laughable.

Sorry I worked with too many cadets trying to game the system (by majoring in the easiest major possible) to not have an opinion on this.
 
I totally hear what you are saying Aglahad and on a basic level I do totally agree. I have repeatedly said we should not be majors-snobs. I have two military boys one a MechE major and one a Public Policy major... I think they are equally valuable but may have different assignments and branches depending on the mission of the branch they go to. I am not saying there needs to be more Liberal Arts majors than STEM majors (or vice versa). Just that I would not want the new ARMY OML to discredit non STEM majors and consider them less valuable.

On a specific level though, as we repeatedly read over and over that the army is focusing more on cultural understanding, Liberal Arts majors typically have a Non-Western Culture requirement that is not typically a requirement for a STEM major. I would say, for example, that if we are looking at understanding culture a liberal arts major who studies Korean/Russian/Chinese/Swahili and Korean/Russian/Chinese/Swahili culture would have more tools in their shed than one who studied fluid dynamics.

I also hate the fact that you have worked with many cadets trying to game the system (by majoring in the easiest major possible)--frankly that is B.S. and all around good for no one.
 
Aglahad said:
Would a criminal justice degree have served him better?

Sorry I worked with too many cadets trying to game the system (by majoring in the easiest major possible) to not have an opinion on this.
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I guess the question would be....would the Criminal Justice degree served him worse.

As far as gaming the system, when Cadet Command and the Army create a system where GPA counts for 40% of the OML, and then have a branching system that has large Dead Zones, what do they expect will happen. Cadet Command had created the rules to the game, cadets were just playing the game within those rules.

Not everyone can or wants to be a Physics major, but they may want to be an Infantry or Aviation Officer. To reach that goal they didn't Game the system, they just played by the rules they were given. Change the rules and the game changes.

Myself, I never had any interest in the STEM majors, History was my passion. I have the utmost respect for the Engineers that work for me.
 
Vista123 said:
I also hate the fact that you have worked with many cadets trying to game the system (by majoring in the easiest major possible)--frankly that is B.S. and all around good for no one.
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It seems like every LA major has to defend themselves as Gaming the System because their major is seen by some as easier, not always the case. Like your son, there are many that choose their major because it is what they truly want.

So called Gaming the System can work in reverse as well, take the Air Force and Navy for example. The scholarships for NROTC weigh heavily toward STEM, same for the AF. AF actually gives a leg up to STEM majors for their selection to SFT. Cadets in AFROTC and NROTC will sometimes choose a STEM major just to give themselves a better chance at a scholarship or SFT, this can also be considered Gaming the System. It all comes down to the rules that are set in place and how the cadets decide to work within those rules.
 
Vista123 said:
To drift further off topic....

I am not disagreeing with you MemberLG at all, but it seems to me to win, preparation for and understanding of the culture is required (at least past WWll).
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The question is win what - a war or something else?
 
GAMING THE SYSTEM

Applying to ALL services academies in hopes of being selected by one? As recommended by nearly everyone, especially the MOC's

Going to a service academy or SMC because you're "guaranteed" active duty regardless of your major?

Applying for any or all ROTC scholarships, Army, Navy, Air Force?

Kind of open to interpretation.

Quite frankly DS went to a small college because he figured he could get better grades and keep his GPA up as opposed to attending big state university. If that's gaming the system and BS then oh well. He has his eyes on a goal and figured that was the best way he could achieve it. He still must meet all the ROTC requirements and get good evals from his PMS and cadre for his OML score.
 
I have no issue with the gaming the system as every decision has intended and unintended consequences.

So a kid picks Liberal Arts major at a small college to get a 4 year ROTC scholarship and to get active duty. Everything works out great to getting to active duty. Decides to leave active duty after 5 years, but can't find a job because he majored in liberal arts and attended a small college.
 
So a kid picks Liberal Arts major at a small college to get a 4 year ROTC scholarship and to get active duty. Everything works out great to getting to active duty. Decides to leave active duty after 5 years, but can't find a job because he majored in liberal arts and attended a small college.

I guess that depends on what the kid wants to pursue after the military and college. Maybe the kid wants to farm, ranch, work construction or heaven forbid take his liberal arts degree and further his education and become a teacher. That just has unemployment written all over it.
 
MemberLG said:
I have no issue with the gaming the system as every decision has intended and unintended consequences.

So a kid picks Liberal Arts major at a small college to get a 4 year ROTC scholarship and to get active duty. Everything works out great to getting to active duty. Decides to leave active duty after 5 years, but can't find a job because he majored in liberal arts and attended a small college.
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I think your statement is nonsensical, idiotic, and troll baiting. (sorry to sound harsh MemberLG) :thumbdown:


The idea that STEM majors have a vastly more secure path to steady, long-term post-college employment than other college grads is mostly BS. Very convincing BS! But BS all the same.

Wages for the large majority of recent math and science college grads actually flatlined in the 2000s (although they do remain somewhat higher on average). Furthermore, the difference in unemployment rates between STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) college grads and non-STEM college grads is insignificant — according to September 2012 data, the difference was roughly a single percentage point. Even in the long run, STEM majors are unlikely to stay with their concentrations, and 58 percent of undergraduate science majors end up leaving the field after 10 years.

Part of the reason college graduates of any major are having difficulty getting steady work of any kind is because all young people (with or without a college degree) can’t find employment all that easily PERIOD. Right now universities are actually awarding far more STEM degrees than there are opening in the STEM job market.

If you’re looking for the single biggest advantage in the youth job market, the answer is actually pretty simple, and it has nothing to do with which box you check on a major declaration form. To put it bluntly: If you want to get a job, go to college and major in whatever suits you best.
 
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I know that when we have problems we cast about for places to hang our frustration. I'm a guidance counselor. I know many young people who went to small liberal arts colleges and found jobs and many who went to big universities, got job-related "practical" majors and who continue to struggle. The "if only I had..." can be a crippling thought; one I don't encourage. Individual differences and just plain luck account for much.
 
Well I think I'm going to exit this discussion, it got a little off base from the original post.

Jcleppe, sorry that history major and military career didn't help you find useful employment managing those engineers.

I've got work to do here at my non-degree required job that I've had for over 25 years.
 
Considering the flood of STEM degrees into the market, it might actually be a BAD idea to go into STEM. So many people with an engineering degree = less pay for engineers = why even get an engineering degree? Especially if you have no interest in it.
 
Jcleppe said:
I guess the question would be....would the Criminal Justice degree served him worse.

As far as gaming the system, when Cadet Command and the Army create a system where GPA counts for 40% of the OML, and then have a branching system that has large Dead Zones, what do they expect will happen. Cadet Command had created the rules to the game, cadets were just playing the game within those rules.

Not everyone can or wants to be a Physics major, but they may want to be an Infantry or Aviation Officer. To reach that goal they didn't Game the system, they just played by the rules they were given. Change the rules and the game changes.

Myself, I never had any interest in the STEM majors, History was my passion. I have the utmost respect for the Engineers that work for me.
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I absolutely do not think cadets should major in STEM "just because" and everyone should pursue their interests. However, I have no qualms calling a spade a spade. There obvious differences in degree difficulty across a GPA and or time involved x/y axis are obvious. I don't think GPA should play a factor in OML rankings anymore unless more nods are given to STEM guys. It's simply not even fair to compare the two on the same GPA scale. I went to a LA school (hence my religion minor which was essentially literature/philosophy combined) and know the value of LA degrees. While useful, they can't be compared to STEM in terms of difficulty in most situations.

Also, I most definitely would have been a history major. History and health care are my passions. I just chose the more marketable one. If I could have done both I would have. Stupid 104-rs....and nursing taking minimum 17 credits a semester.

I think a lot of cadets overestimate how much their military experience will land them a job when they get out. Many employers have no idea what an XO or S-3 is even when you explain it but do value an engineering background for a "Systems Analyst" position even with no real engineering experience during AD. One of my good friends has a poly sci degree and we went through postings for big companies in the PNW looking at jobs for her. Besides some sales and marketing almost all of the postings either required substantial experience/masters degree or a STEM degree. It was rather disheartening for her.
 
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Strength and Honor said:
Considering the flood of STEM degrees into the market, it might actually be a BAD idea to go into STEM. So many people with an engineering degree = less pay for engineers = why even get an engineering degree? Especially if you have no interest in it.
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Not really, every engineer I know either has a promising internship with Boeing, Amazon, a big city, Microsoft or a starting 60-70k job out here in the PNW.
 
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markbrown6 said:
I know that when we have problems we cast about for places to hang our frustration. I'm a guidance counselor. I know many young people who went to small liberal arts colleges and found jobs and many who went to big universities, got job-related "practical" majors and who continue to struggle. The "if only I had..." can be a crippling thought; one I don't encourage. Individual differences and just plain luck account for much.
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I assure you the line of unemployed non-practical majors is a lot longer. I have many friends still living at home or working food/retail with degrees.

Frankly I would have rather gone to tech/trade school, that is a no BS way to land a high paying tradesmen job.
 
Frankly I would have rather gone to tech/trade school, that is a no BS way to land a high paying tradesmen job. :thumb:

I AGREE

"non-practical major" = one you don't put to use at some point in your life and went into debt (or put parents in debt) to get.
 
All of this said being a Aerospace Eng, I don't hover that over my colleagues that are communication majors or such. All I'm saying is that as stated above I don't think the CURRENT system is fair. You can say all you want about how some majors are for certain people and everybody has their strengths and weakness, but let me tell you going to a private engineering school that has one of the toughest programs in the country and sometimes staying up all night to complete my HW than go to lead lab...while its tough sometimes. I think that's what some of the people on this thread are saying because we all know friends at different schools that are Phils,communication,etc majors that literally do nothing and still have higher GPAs. Alright that's enough ranting and winning. Back on topic does has anybody heard anything besides what I stated in the first page? I've heard lead lab and FTXs will be canceled...How will that impact ranger challenge and Bataan? I'd like to hear what you guys have to say.
 
Vista123 said:
I think your statement is nonsensical, idiotic, and troll baiting. (sorry to sound harsh MemberLG) :thumbdown:

. . . To put it bluntly: If you want to get a job, go to college and major in whatever suits you best.
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No offense taken. Now I may sound harsh, but other than for entertainment for us to discuss the merits of rumored ROTC assignment process based on our limited experience and passing judgement on decisions made by young men and women seems nonsensical, idiotic, and troll baiting. So I took the bait :rolleyes:
 
abrownlths said:
All of this said being a Aerospace Eng, I don't hover that over my colleagues that are communication majors or such. All I'm saying is that as stated above I don't think the CURRENT system is fair. You can say all you want about how some majors are for certain people and everybody has their strengths and weakness, but let me tell you going to a private engineering school that has one of the toughest programs in the country and sometimes staying up all night to complete my HW than go to lead lab...while its tough sometimes. I think that's what some of the people on this thread are saying because we all know friends at different schools that are Phils,communication,etc majors that literally do nothing and still have higher GPAs. Alright that's enough ranting and winning. Back on topic does has anybody heard anything besides what I stated in the first page? I've heard lead lab and FTXs will be canceled...How will that impact ranger challenge and Bataan? I'd like to hear what you guys have to say.
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So far what I learned from the school of life is

Life is not fair

When I make decisions there is no redo and my parents can't fix it for me if I don't like the result.

Did someone force you to pick aerospace engineering?
 
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