Changing of the Guard and the Chaos, etc. It Causes

I know my son is motivated, has integrity and is working his hind end off. I just hope he has many like minded classmates to bond with and hope they build each other up.

Likewise, dramamama! I know from our DS that there is a core of motivated plebes; let us just hope there are enough. The trouble is how to light a fire under the ones that are apathetic or disinterested, after, hopefully, the real dead weight doesn't come back after term break.

From what I understand, plebes from one company don't have any leverage over plebes from different companies, and even within a company there isn't much leverage other than the power of persuasion. There doesn't seem to be any downside for the plebes that don't participate or who don't put any effort into, for example, passing PKTs.

Am I correct in this analysis?

Until there is a solution to that situation, and some real consequences can be visited upon plebes who aren't pulling their weight, I don't see how there can be any real improvement.
 
I tried...but...

I tried to keep this thread on topic by PM'ing KP2013dramamama but alas that seems like it will not happen...

"Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The Falcon cannot hear the falconer -
the center cannot hold"

So I'll try to point a couple of things out here in public - from a first hand perspective - this thread was not started to point out deficiencies or concerns about anyone midn or class in particular. It's truly not about issues with either or even particular issues with the "new administration."

I was trying to spark a deiscussion and provide an appropriate form to do that on topic.

Now for some reason, that I don't understand we appear to be "drifting" in the direction of a discussion about motivation, etc. of the Class of 2013 in gneral and perhaps some in particular vs. what some folks, like upper classman might want to see. I don't really understand what earlier posting started this drift but I feel compelled to say something here in the open form in response to a portion of one of the postings on this side topic:

Likewise, dramamama! I know from our DS that there is a core of motivated plebes; let us just hope there are enough. The trouble is how to light a fire under the ones that are apathetic or disinterested, after, hopefully, the real dead weight doesn't come back after term break.

From what I understand, plebes from one company don't have any leverage over plebes from different companies, and even within a company there isn't much leverage other than the power of persuasion. There doesn't seem to be any downside for the plebes that don't participate or who don't put any effort into, for example, passing PKTs.

Am I correct in this analysis?

Until there is a solution to that situation, and some real consequences can be visited upon plebes who aren't pulling their weight, I don't see how there can be any real improvement.


First of all I would hope that when I'm sitting here with my parent hat vs my alumni or taxpayer hat on, I and every other parent would be rooting and hoping that EVERY one of these fine young men and women choose to return and ultimately make it through the full four year program. I'm pretty comfortable in my feeling that 99.99999997% of the kids who get an appointment are worth the time, effort and money spent on them while they are there and all have the potential to be truly top contibuters to a great country and better world in the future.

Second, ParkerMom, as someone who went through the process 30 years ago, has a son in the academy now and is an active alumni, relative to your direct question "Am I correct in my analysis?" Unfortunately, I would have to say directly no, I feel you are pretty much off the mark. The job of Plebes at this juncture is for each of them to learn to take responsibility for their own actions, and to excercise what espirit d' corps and provide support to their peers they can, without putting themselves in a position to fail to complete and deliver on their own responsibilities. Plebes at this point really have no role in motivating, policing or otherwise correcting their peers, nor should they, IMO. They just don't know either the "deliverables" expected from them or understand the motivations for the First Class Midshipman Officers or the Commandant's Staff to be asking for those deliverables from them, to really be reaosnably expected to "lead: each other in any constructive, meaningful way.

I submit if you consider the likely inevitable result if Plebes were expected to do so - the Regiment of Midshipman and the Regimaental trainng aspects of the program could easily degenerate to something akin to "Lord of the Flies".

I also submit that as has been intimated on threads elsewhere, we hear things such as this "lowering of standards, etc." pretty much at least one time or more every year about every Plebe class from virtually every first class. I know the Class of 1979 said it about my Class '82 and some in my class said it about 1985. As a parent I heard it from my DS last year a couple of times about some classmate who was taking longer than he or his friends to "get it" and we contiue to have allegations posted even these days by the current first class about them.

As far as there not being any downside, there is for sure downside, in the end if someone repeatedly doesn't get it for too long a period, they don't make it through the program. Involuntary Disenrollment is as close to the "death penalty" as it comes in this realm. It happens routinely that's why the washout rate is so great - wheter it's "Plebe Killer" courses, diciplinary actions, adverse findings and recommendations by the Honor Board, etc. there are numerous places where there are indeed visible, meaningful downside. However, you are correct one Plebe not listenting to a Classmate at this point, doesn't have much of a downside at this point. Over time, though, since if the Plebe doesn't untimately learn that he has to work together and cooperate with his classmates to graduate, his chances of doing so over four years are far less than those of a Plebe who "gets it."

Sorry for the at least sota rant however, I'd really hope this results in a return to the discussion on constructive change to evolving policies.
 
My apologies for further contributing to 'thread drift off topic', but I feel I really must reply. I wasn't wearing a parent hat, alumni hat or taxpayer hat. If anything, I was wearing a "plebe hat" and viewing the situation from the perspective, as I see it, of a member of the so-called "Admiral's Class".

It is certainly broad-minded and magnanimous of you to believe that all of the members of the class of 2013 "have the potential to be truly top contibuters to a great country and better world in the future". After an "up close and personal" view of some of these members, I submit to you that not all of their classmates share in that belief. Indeed, some of them wonder what the heck some other of their classmates are doing at KP in the first place, based on their "Acta Non Verba" so far.

While I agree with you that "[t]he job of Plebes at this juncture is for each of them to learn to take responsibility for their own actions, and to excercise what espirit(sic) d' corps and provide support to their peers they can, without putting themselves in a position to fail to complete and deliver on their own responsibilities", I am interested to know what consequences there are when plebes fail perform that job.

A large part of the problem, from what I can discern, is that there are an alarming large number of plebes who seem to have no interest in exercising esprit d' corps, never mind providing support to their peers. (Witness the appalling failure of the 142 tribute of Homecoming weekend.)

If plebes have no role in motivating their peers, I wonder how they are to pull off the many tasks they have to perform in order to prove worthy of Recognition for their class. As you are well aware, each of them working alone will never accomplish that goal. They MUST motivate each other to do so!

Plebes who routinely don't show up for spirit missions (I won't even go into the ones who openly insult their peers who request their participation), who put no effort into PKTs or other tasks necessary for Recognition don't deserve to be at KP, and disenrollment, involuntary or voluntary does seem to be the inevitable consequence for the true hard cases. But what can be done to get some of these plebes turned around to participate? Short of disenrollment, what can be done to motivate these types? (Disenrollment not exactly being a motivator.) How can they be encouraged to "get it" sooner rather than later? In time to help their class get recognized, for example, instead of seeing the light closer to graduation.

That, jasperdog, is the core of my question. How can their classmates help them to "get it", to become contributing members towards Recognition instead of dead weight? There seems to be no mechanism for classmates to encourage esprit d' corp, to generate the teamwork needed for success.

From your post, your position seems to be that each plebe must come to the realization that he needs the help of his classmates to succeed at KP. Fair enough. But is there nothing that classmates can do to "turn that light on" more quickly for the slow learners?
 
ParkerMom:

I didn't mean to offend. I sent you a PM with more details and a response to your last.
 
here's the thing to remember though. recognition is not the goal. the whole working together takes time. if a kid is absolutely uninterested in the regiment, it is no indication of his/her success or failure at KP. regimental involvement does NOT keep you here. doing well in classes does. they'll get it figured out. those that don't will drop. it's important to remember though that the regiment is not the focus... the classroom is.

i can think of several examples of kids that were extremely hardcore about the regiment and they flopped because their focus is on the wrong things. from what i've gathered in my time here, plebe year and the regiment as a whole is used as a tool to prep you for things to come. plebe year is all about learning to triage. you're given a task that takes an hour to do correctly and only 10 minutes to do it in. that's how it works, you sort out what's important and what's not. that's why KPers are highly sought out i think.

don't let the whole recognition thing cloud judgment (not saying that it is, just saying it as a heads up). it's still months away at the soonest. the kids have to figure out for themselves how to work together. it's not something you can force--it won't stick that way. they'll try and fail many more times before it starts to click.

as was said, these aren't new issues, they come up every year, and every class figures it out on their own, when their time has come.
don't sweat the small stuff. :)
 
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