Class of 23 & 24 Shotgunning

usna1985 said:
I’m confused about the root cause being inadequate proctoring And the resulting actions are to increase proctoring. The whole purpose of the honor concept is that proctoring is not required because you’re . . . On your honor . . . Not to cheat. This tells me that USNA has given up on the honor concept, or at least given up on the idea that mids Can be trusted to be honorable. To me that makes it a sad day.
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I'm learning first-hand recently what perception really means. When I heard about the USMA scandal, I said, "Boot them all out." It was easy because I didn't know anybody involved. I'm a civilian and I have never cheated. It is something I can't even comprehend.

In this case, I personally know three Mids involved. And they are all great people. Well, two of them are... My son was first angry at them, then felt sick about it, and then supported them in every way possible. I happened to meet up with the two likeable ones right after the semester for dinner. Knowing them well enough, I asked, "What the hell were you guys thinking?" Both said they panicked. They love USNA and were terrified of not passing. My son was always their tutor (and also tutor for about 20 others...). It just wasn't the same for them learning remotely. Even my son's help wasn't the same via Facetime. The ironic part is that they would have passed without the cheating. They doubted themselves for no reason.

Knowing the faces made me root for them. They were contrite. They know they deserve any consequences, and are beyond thankful they are still Mids.

I do not condone at all what happened. I'm just thankful these boys wll not be defined by this scandal. I hope this whole incident will remind everyone the importance of honor.
 
I agree that it is good that USNA has concluded the investigations and punishments. However IMHO there is not anything good about the situation. 18 lives turned upside down, 82 future careers tainted (hopefully they can overcome), an institution founded on Honor tarnished. Time will tell if reputation and trust can be restored. Unfortunately this is not the first scandal for a SA and will not be the last.
 
FutureAdademyDad? said:
No population can be trusted to be honorable at all times. The best we can hope for us that, in populations where adherence to honor is expected, the percentage of violators will be lower than in the general population.
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I must disagree. We can, and should , expect more from Midshipman. I don't know all details, but the fact that so many took advantage of the situation is disturbing and suggests a serious lapse in the Honor Concept. IMO, Brewmeists' explanation that they panicked because they were afraid of failing is not acceptable. Here's a hint -- it's supposed to be hard, and you are supposed to be pushed to the point where the pressure is great, but Midshipmen and young officers are expected to do the right thing, even when no one is watching. This isn't State U ...these young men and women are being trained to lead young men and women when the pressure is far greater than the risk of failing a test.

FutureAdademyDad? said:
And, no, the classes from "the good old days" were not morally superior, regardless of what they may claim.
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This isn't about the "good old days." We had our share of failures back then, and no one (especially me) is perfect, but the day we start accepting or trying to explain away honor offenses is the day that the institution has failed.
 
brewmeist said:
I'm learning first-hand recently what perception really means. When I heard about the USMA scandal, I said, "Boot them all out." It was easy because I didn't know anybody involved. I'm a civilian and I have never cheated. It is something I can't even comprehend.

In this case, I personally know three Mids involved. And they are all great people. Well, two of them are... My son was first angry at them, then felt sick about it, and then supported them in every way possible. I happened to meet up with the two likeable ones right after the semester for dinner. Knowing them well enough, I asked, "What the hell were you guys thinking?" Both said they panicked. They love USNA and were terrified of not passing. My son was always their tutor (and also tutor for about 20 others...). It just wasn't the same for them learning remotely. Even my son's help wasn't the same via Facetime. The ironic part is that they would have passed without the cheating. They doubted themselves for no reason.

Knowing the faces made me root for them. They were contrite. They know they deserve any consequences, and are beyond thankful they are still Mids.

I do not condone at all what happened. I'm just thankful these boys wll not be defined by this scandal. I hope this whole incident will remind everyone the importance of honor.
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This has to be tough for your DS. Hopefully the "likeable" ones were given second chances.

Any idea what differed between the probation vs separation? or was it that the 18 chose to separate instead of doing 2/7 with probation?
 
justme said:
This has to be tough for your DS. Hopefully the "likeable" ones were given second chances.

Any idea what differed between the probation vs separation? or was it that the 18 chose to separate instead of doing 2/7 with probation?
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I had the same question myself this morning. I have no idea.
 
Don't misunderstand me. I in no way support, condone, or have sympathy for any of the Mids who cheated, regardless of whether they were put on remediation or expelled. I am simply not that surprised.

DD's biggest disappointment on the yard has been finding out that her classmates have feet of clay. Leading up to her appointment, she believed that she would be entering an environment where everybody embraced the same concept of self-responsibility, honor, and duty that she has. I was not so sanguine. Because I knew that, although there would be some who would be mirror images of my daughter, there would be many more who would be simply reflections of what they've learned at home. The ones who cheated were most likely modeling the ethical behaviors that they've observed and been taught from the cradle.

You also have a percentage of the population that, academically, have no business being there and can't really perform at the level required. That population has also been coddled for most of their lives and learned that what they receive is not necessarily tied to what they earn.

DD experienced that in high school. In fact one of her admissions essays centered on her conflict regarding how to deal with classmates who routinely cheated, some of whom were at the top of her class.

All that being said, I stand by my initial statement. Given what the Mids experienced during the 2020-2021 academic year, I do believe that their ethical performance was probably higher than that of the common population at "State U". It was simply not what it should be. The bulk of the blame for that deficiency lies with the Mids themselves. However, it also lies with their parents, their prior and current teachers and coaches, the upper classes, and Academy leadership.

Everybody involved, directly or peripherally, should be taking a long hard look in the mirror.
 
“Good mids can do bad things.”

One of the first things I learned on the Commandant’s staff years ago. Every mid, every officer, every senior enlisted leader, is a flawed human being with feet of clay. It is indeed disheartening for mids who watched the shiny videos, absorbed the prose on the website and reflected all that back in essays and interviews on their journey to the Yard, to find fellow mids who quite clearly run the gamut of human probity. Unless they are riddled with hubris, they must also look in the mirror and realize they too are susceptible to ignoring the oath they took on I-Day, by using magical thinking such as “everyone is doing it,” “it’s not a big deal,” “no one really cares if I do/don’t do X.”

The big factor to not lose sight of is the SAs and their staff, faculty and cadets/midshipmen try earnestly to set a higher standard and strive for it; there is great merit and worth in that striving. Sometimes there are big, messy explosions in the leadership laboratory.
 
usna1985 said:
I’m confused about the root cause being inadequate proctoring
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Precisely. This conclusion is a bad look for USNA.

As a mid, I am pretty upset with the leniency for the offenders. Many others share my opinion. Second chances aren't a bad thing, but mids found in violation weren't even maxed out on restriction or loss of leave. Meanwhile, classmates who drank (safely) underage have missed major holidays and spent 60 days on restriction.
 
Do I read this correctly that the probation was 5 months? So would have concluded last May?

Lots of feelings here. And as with most “big deals things”, it’s a multi-layer thing as far as why it all ultimately happened.

But, to me, it all boils down to how we are made. At our core. What we do when no one is looking. For the life of me I can’t figure out WHY they did it. I get the grade part. But the only thing that makes sense to me, is that they just plain didn’t think anyone would be able to figure it out.

What we do when no one is looking….
 
Is it possible all offenders were given the same punishment and 18 opted to separate rather than face their peers whom they've dishonored?
 
Ethics, integrity, morals, judgement…I recently completed an investigation at my university regarding misuse of parking. I met with each student to learn more about their involvement, ask why they did what they did, and to gather additional information. The consequences were punitive ($) and developmental. They were also referred to our Student Life Office who instructed them to write a letter to themselves about their ethics. Each student took responsibility and acknowledged that they used poor judgement. Matter closed. Two days ago a mom called. She didn’t like the tone of my letter in which I questioned her child’s integrity. Mom was more upset than her child. She couldn’t fathom that her child used poor judgement and got an appropriate consequence. She wanted to rationalize away her child’s judgement and said I was questioning her integrity because she raised the child. As parents, we want to only believe the good of our children. It’s hard sometimes to grasp that good people do bad things or that smart people do dumb things. We are all flawed and hopefully lessons are learned all around and that others recommit themselves to living ethically.
 
Scots2002 said:
Is it possible all offenders were given the same punishment and 18 opted to separate rather than face their peers whom they've dishonored?
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Doubtful. We will never see their statements, investigative results, records of proceedings, recommendations, etc , due to Privacy Act.

There may have been mids who took a leadership (the bad kind) or influencing role, or repeatedly lied, or failed to show remorse. Some may have been offered a retention option but chose to leave, for any number of reasons.
 
Scots2002 said:
Is it possible all offenders were given the same punishment and 18 opted to separate rather than face their peers whom they've dishonored?
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No. 18 MIDN were separated. Others left, but I don't know how they were counted.
 
Skipper07 said:
No. 18 MIDN were separated. Others left, but I don't know how they were counted.
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I guess I was viewing the honor code as a non-negotiable by which all offenders would receive the same punishment. Sounds like maybe 18 of them either did something more egregious or made excuses rather than owning it. Who knows, nevertheless, it's disappointing.
 
There are many factors that go into a decision on honor "punishment." Seniority is one (1/C treated more harshly than plebes). Here, since they are all the same class, it was likely one or more of the following: level of misconduct, acceptance (or not) of responsibility, cooperation with the investigation, whether it was a first offense, etc. Another factor can be the status of the midshipmen him/herself. Is he / she academically SAT, passing the PRT, not a conduct problem, well thought of by the company officer, etc.

As CAPT MJ says, we'll never know . . .
 
As unpopular as my opinion may be..
I think all the cheating mids and cadets should have been separated. Likeable or not.
Can't help but wonder if football players were not involved if they would be out.
 
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