Controversy of Cadet Group Photo -- Reactions from West Pointers?

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Maplerock said:
America's educational system is not failing. We produce many of the world's greatest minds.

What is failing though, is the parenting skills of a large portion of our society.
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I did caveat my post with "urban public school system." I send my children to private schools (which is also a part of the America's education system). I am all for parenting skills also. The "uncomfortable" question is what is our responsibility, if any, to the public education system? I think our society in general is providing sufficient resources to the public education system and putting more resources in the public education will not solve education inequalities due to other societal factors.
 
Padre101 said:
I thought this part of the article was dispositive:

West Point Superintendent Lt. Gen. Robert Caslen did note, however, that clenched-fists have been used in other ways at West Point in the past year as a display of pride for the Army and nation.

"For instance, last July, the class of 2019 spontaneously raised their fist in pride upon the playing of the Army Strong song during the Fourth of July Concert," he wrote in his letter. "Last December, on the night before the Army-Navy game, I joined hundreds of staff and graduates in raising our fist in support of the Army football team during the Army-Navy pep rally video. The time, place and manner of a symbol can also hold significant meaning and influence perception."
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Padre, what about this quote from the article?
Based on the inquiry, some of the cadets involved knew what they were doing could prove incendiary.

Two cadets reportedly proposed the "raised fist" stance during the shoot and two others immediately expressed concern, according to the investigator. They asked, "Are we really doing this?"

A cadet defended the photo, telling the other women, "This isn't an [equal opportunity] violation and we won't get in trouble for it." The cadet's name is redacted in the report.

As I stated before, they knew what they were doing, but chose to do it anyway. The mere fact that they would question themselves prior to the action, and then do it anyway is very telling.

I am not surprised that all they got was a slap on the hand and some "counseling" as our society is so politically correct that even the Secretary of State, the IRS, the Justice Department are not held responsible for any actions taken in the wrong. There are too many excuses without sufficient consequences, as a result, more and more of this type of behavior will continue until people are held accountable for their actions.
 
Americanpatriot said:
. As for Wedt Point, if he truly has sources (snitches) at the academy, how the hell does one have the audacity to publicize the story? I would like to know, in the instances he's made public, how many times he recommended the chain of command or sent them the story instead of the Army Times.
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I still don't understand what West Point did wrong. I highly doubt that West Point opened the investigation solely based on Burk's influence. Regardless how many times Burk contacted West Point, West Point would not have opened an investigation, if there is nothing to investigate.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/11/us/west-point-cadets-raised-fist-photo.html

Follow up article from the New York Times. My own view -- as the guy who started the thread -- it would have been very difficult to conclude that an ambiguous physical gesture violated the prohibition on political statements in uniform. Had there been a sanction, my amateur legal instincts tell me that such a punishment would have been hard to uphold. (Not to mention drawn out proceedings and the public outcry that would emerge would have been damaging to West Point and the Army.)

At the same time, for the benefit of these young officers' future careers, counseling them about unintended messages and consequences is probably reasonable too. I only hope that the overtly racist backlash that they experienced (I don't mean here, but elsewhere in the social media world some of the comments/responses were jaw-droppingly ugly) does not get in the way of them being able to take the counseling in a good spirit.
 
FalconsRock said:
Padre, what about this quote from the article?
Based on the inquiry, some of the cadets involved knew what they were doing could prove incendiary.

Two cadets reportedly proposed the "raised fist" stance during the shoot and two others immediately expressed concern, according to the investigator. They asked, "Are we really doing this?"

A cadet defended the photo, telling the other women, "This isn't an [equal opportunity] violation and we won't get in trouble for it." The cadet's name is redacted in the report.

As I stated before, they knew what they were doing, but chose to do it anyway. The mere fact that they would question themselves prior to the action, and then do it anyway is very telling.

I am not surprised that all they got was a slap on the hand and some "counseling" as our society is so politically correct that even the Secretary of State, the IRS, the Justice Department are not held responsible for any actions taken in the wrong. There are too many excuses without sufficient consequences, as a result, more and more of this type of behavior will continue until people are held accountable for their actions.
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And I interpret this quite differently. Per the description of the investigation, some of the cadets worried about whether it would be an issue and another cadet responded with a substantive response that the gesture "isn't an [equal opportunity] violation." All would have been better if they'd said -- 'let's not leave room for anyone to misunderstand' -- but the fact that they thought about their actions and concluded they were not violating regulations is very relevant to an intent not to make a gesture that violated regulations.

I also don't think the action is "without consequences." In addition to having to cooperate with an investigation (a little dampening of the celebratory times of Firstie spring), they were reprimanded. And each of these 2LTs going to their next unit has a photo out there that could lead many in their next command to view them differently. For example, if there are "Colonel Sledges" out there, they'll have commanders who think they engaged in some sort of serious misconduct yet "got a slap on the wrist."
 
GoSox said:
And I interpret this quite differently. Per the description of the investigation, some of the cadets worried about whether it would be an issue and another cadet responded with a substantive response that the gesture "isn't an [equal opportunity] violation." All would have been better if they'd said -- 'let's not leave room for anyone to misunderstand' -- but the fact that they thought about their actions and concluded they were not violating regulations is very relevant to an intent not to make a gesture that violated regulations.

I also don't think the action is "without consequences." In addition to having to cooperate with an investigation (a little dampening of the celebratory times of Firstie spring), they were reprimanded. And each of these 2LTs going to their next unit has a photo out there that could lead many in their next command to view them differently. For example, if there are "Colonel Sledges" out there, they'll have commanders who think they engaged in some sort of serious misconduct yet "got a slap on the wrist."
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Thanks for the promotion. I would just worry that I could write them an objective OER if they were found wanting, since they appear to be protected.
 
scoutpilot said:
You said it, man. Nevertheless I look forward to the 137th installment of the "Big Changes Coming to the APFT" article series.
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Funny you should mention that. I just caught a glimpse of the 253rd installment:
....................................................................................................................................................

May 11, 2026

Today at the Pentagon, Secretary of Military Greatness Amerosa Manigalt announced that the APFT will be revised. “It is critical that the APFT test the actual skills required in the modern Army.” The new test will have three major components measuring (1) endurance, (2) manual dexterity and arm strength and (3) teamwork.

The first test will be a timed 3 mile march with soldiers bearing rucks weighted with 30 lbs. of genuine Idaho potatoes.
The second test will be to peel a genuine Idaho potato and then throw it as far as you can.
The third test will be a race involving two soldiers with one leg each tied together in a genuine Idaho potato sack. Together they will retrieve their potatoes, which they will then have for lunch.

Elsewhere, Secretary of Business Greatness Eric Trump told reporters that he was not yet ready to announce the winner of the auction for corporate sponsorship of the U.S. Army. “President for Life Donald Trump is still deeply involved in negotiations. Whoever he picks, it will be a tremendous deal for the American people, an amazing deal, that I can tell you.”
...................................................................................................................................................
 
haleym said:
That is a very wrong statement to say the least.
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2015/01/28/us-education-still-separate-and-unequal
http://www.apa.org/ed/resources/racial-disparities.aspx
http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releas...-schools-reveals-troubling-racial-disparities
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We have chosen to educate every child; the mentally challenged, those with behavioral disorders, the blind, neurological disorders, etc. Worthy kids... yes. But definitely expensive in dollars, and man-hours to teach. Buses running routes with one child. One on one aide to student ratio (I've seen it many times). Parent conference night where 10% of the parents show up to get progress reports and make plans to help their kids. One local school had to hold conferences in a restaurant and provide free dinners to entice parents to conference. Kudos to the overworked, underpaid teachers in the trenches.

I know these aren't the Leave it to Beaver days when every kid had two parents concerned about their welfare and education. If we had that type of society though, we wouldn't need to discuss this.

Too sum it up, our schools aren't failing. If anything is failing it's our society.
 
MemberLG said:
I still don't understand what West Point did wrong. I highly doubt that West Point opened the investigation solely based on Burk's influence. Regardless how many times Burk contacted West Point, West Point would not have opened an investigation, if there is nothing to investigate.
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As far as I'm concerned, West Point did absolutely nothing wrong. It was reported that the ball started rolling when Burke sent the article to Srmy Times, and they published it. He also sent the article to the Nrw York Times, CNN, Fox News, and Special Edition - all documented on his FB and web page - by Burke himself, including screenshots of texts he claims came from his sources. I'm not dwelling on the photo, it's his tactics I don't care for.
 
FalconsRock said:
Padre, what about this quote from the article?
Based on the inquiry, some of the cadets involved knew what they were doing could prove incendiary.

Two cadets reportedly proposed the "raised fist" stance during the shoot and two others immediately expressed concern, according to the investigator. They asked, "Are we really doing this?"

A cadet defended the photo, telling the other women, "This isn't an [equal opportunity] violation and we won't get in trouble for it." The cadet's name is redacted in the report.

As I stated before, they knew what they were doing, but chose to do it anyway. The mere fact that they would question themselves prior to the action, and then do it anyway is very telling.

I am not surprised that all they got was a slap on the hand and some "counseling" as our society is so politically correct that even the Secretary of State, the IRS, the Justice Department are not held responsible for any actions taken in the wrong. There are too many excuses without sufficient consequences, as a result, more and more of this type of behavior will continue until people are held accountable for their actions.
Click to expand...

Agreed with your general sentiments. But, what the article doesn't mention is that they admitted their mistake. They could have lawyered-up and taken the Fifth which they have the right to do, but they confessed (it looks like).

This picture will haunt them the rest of their careers. Trust me, no one will let them forget it.

It is lesson about the impact of social media that everyone should learn.
 
GoSox said:
And I interpret this quite differently. Per the description of the investigation, some of the cadets worried about whether it would be an issue and another cadet responded with a substantive response that the gesture "isn't an [equal opportunity] violation." All would have been better if they'd said -- 'let's not leave room for anyone to misunderstand' -- but the fact that they thought about their actions and concluded they were not violating regulations is very relevant to an intent not to make a gesture that violated regulations.

I also don't think the action is "without consequences." In addition to having to cooperate with an investigation (a little dampening of the celebratory times of Firstie spring), they were reprimanded. And each of these 2LTs going to their next unit has a photo out there that could lead many in their next command to view them differently. For example, if there are "Colonel Sledges" out there, they'll have commanders who think they engaged in some sort of serious misconduct yet "got a slap on the wrist."
Click to expand...
I concur.
 
Maplerock said:
We have chosen to educate every child; the mentally challenged, those with behavioral disorders, the blind, neurological disorders, etc. Worthy kids... yes. But definitely expensive in dollars, and man-hours to teach. Buses running routes with one child. One on one aide to student ratio (I've seen it many times). Parent conference night where 10% of the parents show up to get progress reports and make plans to help their kids. One local school had to hold conferences in a restaurant and provide free dinners to entice parents to conference. Kudos to the overworked, underpaid teachers in the trenches.

I know these aren't the Leave it to Beaver days when every kid had two parents concerned about their welfare and education. If we had that type of society though, we wouldn't need to discuss this.

Too sum it up, our schools aren't failing. If anything is failing it's our society.
Click to expand...

We aren't discussing individual teachers and the hard work they put in to students. We are discussing the U.S. education system. The lack of parental support as well as the issues with society that you discuss contribute to the problem with the system that we have. They are not separate from each other.
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/05/detroits-school-crisis/482010/
I highly recommend this article from The Atlantic, which discusses the disaster that is Detroit's school system. Granted, this is an extreme example, but this is what can happen in our country.
I think people forget that just because they are in a good district with teachers, students, and parents who care as well as have the necessary funding, does not mean that there are districts out there who do not. Unfortunately, school districts can be winners and losers for many reasons. I played tennis in high school, and we were fortunate enough to have nice hard courts to play on. When we went to other schools to play, I remember one specifically: the students had to play on asphalt concrete courts (as in the same stuff they use in the streets) that were in terrible shape- cracks everywhere, so not exactly safe. Yeah, it's "just tennis", but how in the world is that fair? What does that say about us all having an "equal starting line" overall? The fact of the matter is, bad parenting aside (because that can definitely be a contributor), it is not equal. Some districts and the kids in them get a raw deal due to an education system that does not live up to expectations.
 
haleym said:
We aren't discussing individual teachers and the hard work they put in to students. We are discussing the U.S. education system. The lack of parental support as well as the issues with society that you discuss contribute to the problem with the system that we have. They are not separate from each other.
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/05/detroits-school-crisis/482010/
I highly recommend this article from The Atlantic, which discusses the disaster that is Detroit's school system. Granted, this is an extreme example, but this is what can happen in our country.
I think people forget that just because they are in a good district with teachers, students, and parents who care as well as have the necessary funding, does not mean that there are districts out there who do not. Unfortunately, school districts can be winners and losers for many reasons. I played tennis in high school, and we were fortunate enough to have nice hard courts to play on. When we went to other schools to play, I remember one specifically: the students had to play on asphalt concrete courts (as in the same stuff they use in the streets) that were in terrible shape- cracks everywhere, so not exactly safe. Yeah, it's "just tennis", but how in the world is that fair? What does that say about us all having an "equal starting line" overall? The fact of the matter is, bad parenting aside (because that can definitely be a contributor), it is not equal. Some districts and the kids in them get a raw deal due to an education system that does not live up to expectations.
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Very valid points, but what's the solution? I can point out all the wrong things in the world until I get tired of typing, but that's not going to change anything.

Are you naïve enough to believe that there should be an "equal starting line." Even if I agree with you, I don't see how we can create an equal starting line.
Care to share some ideas on how to create an "equal starting line?" I got a solution, why don't take resources from your school and send it to the other school.

I send my kids to private schools. My older kid told me how other kids in her class talk about helping people and trying to make things better for others. So I asked my kid what would her friends say if we propose we should allow any student that wants to attend her private school, as it is a good school and all kids should attend goo schools, should be allow to attend the school - total silence from my kid.
 
Americanpatriot said:
As far as I'm concerned, West Point did absolutely nothing wrong. It was reported that the ball started rolling when Burke sent the article to Srmy Times, and they published it. He also sent the article to the Nrw York Times, CNN, Fox News, and Special Edition - all documented on his FB and web page - by Burke himself, including screenshots of texts he claims came from his sources. I'm not dwelling on the photo, it's his tactics I don't care for.
Click to expand...

His tactics being.... Pitching a story or having sources?

I'm going to have to google Burke soon. I still don't know who he is.
 
MemberLG said:
Very valid points, but what's the solution? I can point out all the wrong things in the world until I get tired of typing, but that's not going to change anything.

Are you naïve enough to believe that there should be an "equal starting line." Even if I agree with you, I don't see how we can create an equal starting line.
Care to share some ideas on how to create an "equal starting line?" I got a solution, why don't take resources from your school and send it to the other school.

I send my kids to private schools. My older kid told me how other kids in her class talk about helping people and trying to make things better for others. So I asked my kid what would her friends say if we propose we should allow any student that wants to attend her private school, as it is a good school and all kids should attend goo schools, should be allow to attend the school - total silence from my kid.
Click to expand...

I don't think that I am "naive" to believe that children deserve to be on an equal playing field in terms of the education they receive. At the very least, we as citizens and our government should desire to better every child, regardless of whether or not they live next door.
Do I have all the answers? No. But I absolutely believe in the equal distribution funding among districts, even if that means taking from my own funds and giving to others who are in desperate need of it. Why? Because it's the right thing to do. Right now we have a system that is designed to keep the poor poor and uneducated. I find it incredibly sad that education is seen as a competition (as in the proper execution of it), and we are more focused on putting ourselves ahead of others at the sacrifice of their future because we don't want to have to actually compete with them in terms of jockeying for a position in college or in the job market. In fact, when you think about the fact that we are okay with putting the economically disadvantaged at even more of a disadvantage for our own benefit, it is beyond disturbing.
Additionally, my mother is a teacher in one of these poorer districts. She is routinely frustrated by the curriculum, just like most of her colleagues. Our schools have become so focused on collecting data and measuring kids through standardized testing that we don't focus on the relationship teachers have with students, we don't incorporate the importance of play into the curriculum, and kids are expected to regurgitate information as if they are robots. I could go on and on about how poorly this system is designed, but you get my point. Massive reform needs to take place, and it needs to be lead in congress by teachers- NOT politicians.
Overall, this might sound like a very "communist" message, but I assure you that it is not. I believe in hard work and tenacity; in fact, it's how I got to where I am today. What I am NOT for is suppressing the basic education of others. If we want to keep trying to sell the American Dream, the idea of pulling yourself up from your boot straps, we need to have a system that supports that notion by giving everyone a fighting chance.
 
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