Do Midshipmen Receive Firearm Training?

MichaelSC

Member
Im looking into applying to the USMMA, and I was wondering if midshipmen receive firearm training like at the other academies?
 

USMMA2021

USMMA Class of 2021
Im looking into applying to the USMMA, and I was wondering if midshipmen receive firearm training like at the other academies?
Hi I am a current Plebe at the Academy and hopefully I will be able to answer your question. The answer is yes and no. During Indoc we receive a pistol familiarization class for the Beretta M9. This class goes over the basics of firearm safety, how to load/unload the weapon, firing it, and how to safely handle it. So to answer your question yes, we do receive firearms training but I'd hardly call firing 10 rounds down range real firearms training. And in addition to that we do not qualify for the Naval Pistol/Rifle ribbon like that Naval Academy.
 

Dsstern98

Member
There is a pistol team as well as trips to shotgun ranges. Some people do earn the Navy Pistol/Rifle ribbon from the academy and some earn it over sea year. However most don't.
 

KPEngineer

Eternal Father ...
5-Year Member
Some people do earn the Navy Pistol/Rifle ribbon from the academy
I doubt this. Someone may tell them they do, but to actually obtain the qualification in accordance with OPNAVINST 3591 at KP is very difficult and I sincerely doubt anyone in a position to do so would go through the effort required.
 

Dsstern98

Member
A classmate in my company just received his Navy Pistol Ribbon from the academy itself. Very few actually receive it from the academy though. Most people who earn them earn them over sea year,
 

bearhunter66

5-Year Member
My DS , 1C, qualified expert and earned the Navy ribbon 2 weeks ago at the Academy. 5 other classmates also earned the ribbon with him. This is new to KP as they have not had access to a qualified instructor and ammunition in the past.
 

golfindad

Member
Things change, and all is not what it was years ago when alumni graduated. Sorry KPengineer. "with all due respect" I think your age shows on this one. lol.
 

KPEngineer

Eternal Father ...
5-Year Member
Things change, and all is not what it was years ago when alumni graduated. Sorry KPengineer. "with all due respect" I think your age shows on this one. lol.
Its not my age, its my cynicism.

Im inherently skeptical thatt anyone at KP would actually follow very descriptive and precise rules (the instruction is over 100 pages) that make it difficult to dot every i and cross every t in order to correctly complete the required training in the required manner when you are not on a US Navy range. It can be done, but it involves a lot of moving parts and people going out of their way to make it happen. Most just don't, so I'm always dubious when someone says they qualified at XYZ range.

If they did it within the rules, more power to them, they deserve it because its not easy to make happen
 

bearhunter66

5-Year Member
So I got some of the backstory from my son. Basically during indoc all of the plebe candidates are required to fire off a dozen rounds so that the PCs are "familiarized" with the weapon. This requires a certain number of qualified instructors. My son and five others were put through this process so there will be enough qualified instructors to handle the next incoming class. Although my son is a 1C, he was selected to go through the course. He indicated it was a full eight hour course and their qualification required the firing of 300 rounds at various ranges, stances and hand positions with a minimum score to qualify. He is under the impression that the signed certification (ribbon and instructor qualification ) will be put in his jacket and he can take it with him when he graduates.
 

beyond

KπΣ15'
5-Year Member
Its not my age, its my cynicism.

Im inherently skeptical thatt anyone at KP would actually follow very descriptive and precise rules (the instruction is over 100 pages)
This. This. This. This.

He indicated it was a full eight hour course and their qualification required the firing of 300 rounds at various ranges, stances and hand positions with a minimum score to qualify.
I can guarantee that this is NOT an instructor certification.

I have to qual handgun, rifle, and shotgun every 8 months for work. There isn't a single 300 round course of fire... and I'm suspicious about the 8 hour part as well. The ATG folks require that we spend 32 hours (...though we're qual'ing for all three) on the qual. We literally sit in the classroom and tell sea stories to arrive at the 32 hour mark, but they won't let us go a second early. I second KPeng about anyone at KP actually reading the rules, it might end up in your kids jacket (...he'll have to send a letter in to Millington/His command to get it put in). I'll add that the instruction is so strict about who can administer the qual that qual'ing for MSC doesn't count for big navy anymore, despite the fact that it is the same qual. A lot of folks at KP have zero idea about how big navy works, and as a mid you don't figure it out until you get out and start working with the real Navy.
 

KPEngineer

Eternal Father ...
5-Year Member
So I got some of the backstory from my son. Basically during indoc all of the plebe candidates are required to fire off a dozen rounds so that the PCs are "familiarized" with the weapon. This requires a certain number of qualified instructors. My son and five others were put through this process so there will be enough qualified instructors to handle the next incoming class. Although my son is a 1C, he was selected to go through the course. He indicated it was a full eight hour course and their qualification required the firing of 300 rounds at various ranges, stances and hand positions with a minimum score to qualify. He is under the impression that the signed certification (ribbon and instructor qualification ) will be put in his jacket and he can take it with him when he graduates.
NEGATIVE NEGATIVE NEGATIVE

In order to small arms qualified for the Navy you MUST MUST MUST qualify under ALL ALL ALL requirements contained within OPNAVINST 3591.1F. Achieving the minimum score on the prescribed course of fire is only ONE ONE ONE of the requirements. Another of the requirements is that the course of fire MUST MUST MUST be administered by a qualified Small Arms Marksmanship Instructor (SAMI). In order to become a qualified SAMI you MUST MUST MUST attend an in- residence course with big Navy. If my memory serves me correct it is a three week course and includes pistol, rifle, shotgun and grenade launchers. It includes alternate shooting scenarios like low-light and with a gas mask. If your son was given an 8-hour course and told to go train the incoming candidates that is fine for general familiarization and its not a bad thing, but it CANNOT CANNOT CANNOT allow him to qualify anyone in terms of big Navy and authorize the awarding of a marksmanship ribbon/medal. I am curious as to just whom is stating that these incoming candidates have qualified for the ribbon/medal, what (if any) paperwork there is and if any of them are wearing the ribbon/medal?

The SAMI course is one of the most sought after in all of big Navy and you typically cannot get in unless you have an identified need and an identified need is typically defined as one in which the 0812 NEC code is listed for one of your billets in your unit. I am virtually certain that this is not the case for anyone at USMMA since it could only be for someone in Naval Science.

One could qualify at the range at USMMA but if the weapons and ammo are not owned by the Navy, you would have to import both the weapons and ammo in addition to a SAMI qualified instructor. This can be done but it is very difficult unless you have someone willing to put in a lot of time and effort to do a lot of paperwork for basically a boondogle for a bunch of KP candidates during indoc ... hence my skepticism.

Specific to your son, and his classmates who were told they earned a ribbon, A pers-4 (aka "page 4) is typically issued that documents this. I would suggest they take whatever records they have over to NavSci and ask for a page 4 to reflect their qualification. NavSci will then give them the definitive yea or nay on the ribbon. Without the page 4, I highly recommend NOT NOT NOT affixing said ribbon to ones uniform.
 
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bearhunter66

5-Year Member
Lt. Cohen led the class. According to son, he is fully qualified Navy Instructor.

The "instructors certification" they received was a "KP certification" so they could manage indoc. Definitely not full Navy Instructor Cert.

Indoc (plebe candidates) only fire 12 rounds and the only thing it does is check a box that they have been "familiarized". No ribbon, no cert, probably no weapons cleaning either.

Son positive Navy ribbon earned for him and the 5 others. He was already following up on the paperwork. I've asked for copy as I'm curious and can use the info in this post to make sure he has the right paperwork I. His file.

BH
 

KPEngineer

Eternal Father ...
5-Year Member
Son may be positive that someone TOLD him he is fully qualified but I remain dubious for a couple reasons completely outside the control of your son. Not his fault, its easy to fall into the trap of believing what you want to hear.

If he has a piece of paper issued to him by NavSci then he is good to go, even anyone at NavSci balks at giving him the paper than that should a big red flag for him.

This is actually a very good learning opportunity as he approaches commissioning next year. Document everything, keep every document and nothing is real unless you have it on paper.
 

cmakin

5-Year Member
Son may be positive that someone TOLD him he is fully qualified but I remain dubious for a couple reasons completely outside the control of your son. Not his fault, its easy to fall into the trap of believing what you want to hear.

If he has a piece of paper issued to him by NavSci then he is good to go, even anyone at NavSci balks at giving him the paper than that should a big red flag for him.

This is actually a very good learning opportunity as he approaches commissioning next year. Document everything, keep every document and nothing is real unless you have it on paper.
I seem to recall the availability to qualify with a rifle back in my day, but I also believe that it was not with facilities onboard and with Navy personnel. Not many took advantage.
 

NAVYCAPT93

Member
Some people do earn the Navy Pistol/Rifle ribbon from the academy
I doubt this. Someone may tell them they do, but to actually obtain the qualification in accordance with OPNAVINST 3591 at KP is very difficult and I sincerely doubt anyone in a position to do so would go through the effort required.
KP Engineer is right that VERY FEW actually obtain the qualification per OPNAVINST 3591. But for those who are on the Pistol or Rifle team - they frequently have the opportunity to do the complete Navy qualification and many times do. But it is VERY small amount of people compared to the overall size of the Regiment.
 
Students no longer practice cadet gun Crew training on the 20mm gun at surface targets.

Page 88, We'll Deliver: Early History of the USMMA 1938 to 1956 by C. Bradford Mitchell.

Sorry Doctor Eastwood, my bibliography cite does not meet your course standards.
 

Jmoney457

Banned
I know a kid who wears the pistol ribbon on his uniform every day....probably hasn't actually satisfied the criteria to wear it...
 
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