Firstie Medically Separated & Class Ring Inquiry

medsepfirstie

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Jan 24, 2020
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It doesn't make me not support his choice to serve. I have no doubts about the needs of any branch trumping all. It made me hesitate, not about a ring, but about WP not allowing him to finish and graduate, especially considering he made offer to pay for it. We are 100% aware that his desire to serve whether via SA or NROTC means he is no longer 'ours' or available to us when we would like to see him. His sister is aware he may not make her wedding. We have had those conversations. I am still hopeful that the OP can reach a path to graduation. I know 'rules are rules' but when there may be no harm, I believe they should evaluate and make case by case decisions. But, that's just my HO.
Thank you for this and your support. Not getting too into it, but they have deleted his post so I think they know who’s in the right...

Depending on when her wedding is, so long as he can put in an ETP (exception to policy) in a timely manner, he should be able to go. Of course, as you acknowledge, there is no guarantee. My own personal experience with my sister‘s wedding, I was granted to leave Thursday evening and return Monday night (missing two school days and weekend military training). If he is somehow incorporated into the wedding party as well, and family photos are set for a day other than the wedding itself, command is very understanding of how his absence would affect the wedding.
 

Heatherg21

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Jun 26, 2019
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Thank you for this and your support. Not getting too into it, but they have deleted his post so I think they know who’s in the right...

Depending on when her wedding is, so long as he can put in an ETP (exception to policy) in a timely manner, he should be able to go. Of course, as you acknowledge, there is no guarantee. My own personal experience with my sister‘s wedding, I was granted to leave Thursday evening and return Monday night (missing two school days and weekend military training). If he is somehow incorporated into the wedding party as well, and family photos are set for a day other than the wedding itself, command is very understanding of how his absence would affect the wedding.
thank you, he will be officiating. She is happy to wait, she knows this is what he wants to do. And, she isn't in a hurry. I will let him know about an ETP.
 

MemberLG

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As an old grad,

Decision makers make decisions and you can’t fault them for doing their job - regardless if you agree or disagree.

As for the ring, return it if they give you compensation for it otherwise sell it. I believe you might stated that you are not going to wear it. If so why do you want to have it sitting it around? If you keep it, what would your estate do with the ring when you die. Nothing can replace your time at West Point, but at a certain time you need to move on and don’t look back
 

ORArmyMom

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Dec 11, 2018
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While I love this idea, I hope I could potentially have the ring melted for future classes.
Is it possible to save the stone, perhaps for a remake of the ring in the cheaper silver replica, and donate the gold one for a future ring melt? You may want to reach out to the maker to see if they have experienced such a dilemma and can offer suggestions.
Best wishes to you! You will forever be part of the West Point history. God Bless!
 

Heatherg21

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Jun 26, 2019
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This thread made me think of something. My dad's brother and he were at USNA at the same time. My uncle left at the end of plebe year. At the 50 year reunion, they read the names of those who are no longer living. My Uncle Tom's name was read. Made my dad and his wife very emotional. It was unexpected.
You will always have your experiences at West Point and the relationships you fostered there with you.
 

Cookiemom

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Sep 22, 2018
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thank you, he will be officiating. She is happy to wait, she knows this is what he wants to do. And, she isn't in a hurry. I will let him know about an ETP.
My son, a cow, was the officiant for his sisters wedding in september. He was granted a ETP and was able to leave fridayand return monday evening. The first thing his tac did was check his records, any failing grades equal no ETP.
 

kp2001

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Jun 9, 2006
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I would be very interested to read about the legality of forcing someone to return something they have purchased.

Is there a contract that cadets sign in regards to the ring? Who is the ring actually purchased from? (Eg does the cadet purchase directly from the school, or is it directly from Jostens, etc)

I understand the tradition and meaning behind it, but for our lawyers out there help me understand the legal basis of the forced sale of a person’s property.

Unless there is some contract that a cadet signs in direct relationship to the ring I have difficulty understanding how this wouldn’t be an overreach of command authority.
 

cptenca

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Feb 19, 2016
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What is legal and what is right is not always the same thing. That ring contains gold melted down from old grads and veterans who themselves or their survivors donated to the class melt so that their rings would continue through the long Gray Line. At its essence it is Stolen Valor not to return those veterans and old Grads rings to the Corp. I don’t care who “paid for it”.
 

ekb1398

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Apr 3, 2016
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I would be very interested to read about the legality of forcing someone to return something they have purchased.

Is there a contract that cadets sign in regards to the ring? Who is the ring actually purchased from? (Eg does the cadet purchase directly from the school, or is it directly from Jostens, etc)

I understand the tradition and meaning behind it, but for our lawyers out there help me understand the legal basis of the forced sale of a person’s property.

Unless there is some contract that a cadet signs in direct relationship to the ring I have difficulty understanding how this wouldn’t be an overreach of command authority.
I've been following this thread for awhile now. Can't speak to West Point, but at the Coast Guard Academy, it is specifically stated to us that should we not graduate all funds will be returned to us for the ring - the implication being that yes, it would go back. Can't recall if we signed something to that effect or what.
 

StPaulDad

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Feb 24, 2017
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What is legal and what is right is not always the same thing. That ring contains gold melted down from old grads and veterans who themselves or their survivors donated to the class melt so that their rings would continue through the long Gray Line. At its essence it is Stolen Valor not to return those veterans and old Grads rings to the Corp. I don’t care who “paid for it”.
The converse is also true: if he doesn't commission with the class they can do the right thing and recognize the commitment to date that was up to standard. For example if a cadet had died at this point the family would most certainly be allowed to keep the ring. The gap between legal and right is real and leaves room for discretion, discretion that's not being exercised here as in the past. Not saying you're wrong, but there's grey here and the commanders have moved way over to one end in a short period of time.
 

Howlie2

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Jan 28, 2020
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What is legal and what is right is not always the same thing. That ring contains gold melted down from old grads and veterans who themselves or their survivors donated to the class melt so that their rings would continue through the long Gray Line. At its essence it is Stolen Valor not to return those veterans and old Grads rings to the Corp. I don’t care who “paid for it”.
The stolen valor accusation is going a bit far IMO. It isn't like this dude is the first guy to not graduate and keep his ring. I know of 2 rings in the world on the fingers of people that didn't graduate (one was an honor violation) and I'm only one grad. I also know of 2 rings in the world given to the families of firsties that were killed before graduating. One of those rings has since made its' way back to the display at the cadet library but it was in the wind for two decades.
 

kp2001

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Tradition doesn’t hold up in a court unless it’s legal precedent. I won’t argue what is right/wrong in this particular case, I’m actually more interested in where this would actually fall from a legal/UCMJ standpoint if someone was ordered to return the ring and refused. (I don’t advocate for that in this case, but more of a mental exercise).

In my thought it would be refusal to obey and order, but is that order a lawful order. Can an active duty person be ordered to relinquish their personal property when said property is not inherently illegal to otherwise possess? Are there certain restrictions on what items can be required to be returned? Is that based on monetary value or sentimental value?

I don’t know why, but the potential laws behind this intrigue me far more than it should.

[Let’s assume there is no contract signed by the cadet that discusses the ring (but I’d still be interested if anyone knows if there is)]
 

MemberLG

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[Let’s assume there is no contract signed by the cadet that discusses the ring (but I’d still be interested if anyone knows if there is)]
it’s a meaningless victory, in my opinion. The ring itself has some physical value as it is made of gold and some collecto’s value as you see West Point rings on eBay for sale. But I believe a West Point ring’s true value is the wearer being a graduate. Personally, I wouldn’t wear my West Point ring if I didn’t graduate.
 
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