Graduated but not commissioned.

[SECO]

My son received a NROTC scholarship 5 years ago, and everything was going great until his junior year when he failed physics. He had to retake it several times and finally passed, he also passed physics II. We believe we lost his scholarship sometime during his Senior year. He had to do 4.5 years to graduate but continued to do NROTC. I should have been more engaged but didn't want to be a helicopter dad. I asked him questions and trusted his replies. He has always been responsible and as far as I know he has always been truthful.

He graduated after this past fall semester. I was on the understanding that he would be commissioned. Of course, that didn't happen, or I wouldn't be writing this post. He says the Navy is backlogged and he isn't receiving any information on his status from his unit.

I am on the understanding that if he isn't commissioned then he repays his college tuition or he enlists in the Navy? With that said, he's still living near the campus where he's in limbo. Does any of this make sense to anyone? I'm trying to let him figure this out but he's going to be off my healthcare soon and I just moved overseas.

Thanks in advance if you have any knowledge, experience, or recommendations regarding a similar situation.

 

[Pappy_VanRankle]

Sorry to hear this, and I'm sure it's a disappointment. We just went through this with our son, and there is a light at the end of the tunnel - so hang in there. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this is par for the course with the Navy. They will allow you to commission if you run into legal trouble and will not require scholarship repayment if you are disenrolled for conduct. But bad grades are the unforgivable sin, and they will almost certainly charge your son with repaying the full cost of every scholarship dollar spent. Best to just have a candid discussion with your son and rip the bandaid off. Find out:
- If he's signed disenrollment paperwork
- If he's had any conversations with the NROTC unit
- If he's received a letter of indebtedness from the Defense Finance & Accounting Service (DFAS)

If he's required to repay his scholarship (like my son is being required to do), he will have 3 years to do it, but arrangements for financial hardship can be made. Of course, he can avoid repayment altogether by enlisting or commissioning into another branch. Commissioning will wipe the debt immediately (after application for forgiveness), while enlistment will wipe the debt after the first 2-years of enlisted service (after application for forgiveness). Long story short, if your son is truly out and being targeted for recoupment, his absolute best option is to find another service (I would *NOT* recommend serving in the Navy after he's been disenrolled from the Navy), enlist in an area in which he's interested, and seek commissioning ASAP. For example, the Army will allow you to enlist with the option of OCS in your contract. Keep in mind though, all commissioning tracks are "grade competitive" and still maintain the DoD-wide ignorant fixation on GPA. So that may be a limiting factor.

Best of luck to your son, and again - address the issue head-on and start making a plan to tackle the problem and put the matter in his past.

 

[franknd]

Disregard

 

[SECO]

Sorry to hear this, and I'm sure it's a disappointment. We just went through this with our son, and there is a light at the end of the tunnel - so hang in there. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this is par for the course with the Navy. They will allow you to commission if you run into legal trouble and will not require scholarship repayment if you are disenrolled for conduct. But bad grades are the unforgivable sin, and they will almost certainly charge your son with repaying the full cost of every scholarship dollar spent. Best to just have a candid discussion with your son and rip the bandaid off. Find out:
- If he's signed disenrollment paperwork
- If he's had any conversations with the NROTC unit
- If he's received a letter of indebtedness from the Defense Finance & Accounting Service (DFAS)

If he's required to repay his scholarship (like my son is being required to do), he will have 3 years to do it, but arrangements for financial hardship can be made. Of course, he can avoid repayment altogether by enlisting or commissioning into another branch. Commissioning will wipe the debt immediately (after application for forgiveness), while enlistment will wipe the debt after the first 2-years of enlisted service (after application for forgiveness). Long story short, if your son is truly out and being targeted for recoupment, his absolute best option is to find another service (I would *NOT* recommend serving in the Navy after he's been disenrolled from the Navy), enlist in an area in which he's interested, and seek commissioning ASAP. For example, the Army will allow you to enlist with the option of OCS in your contract. Keep in mind though, all commissioning tracks are "grade competitive" and still maintain the DoD-wide ignorant fixation on GPA. So that may be a limiting factor.

Best of luck to your son, and again - address the issue head-on and start making a plan to tackle the problem and put the matter in his past.

Thank you for your input, Pappy! I will continue to pry but for now he's sticking with he's still waiting for approval to commission. The conversation with his NROTC unit is that he was NOT told he lost his commission and that they are waiting for Navy Training Command for approval. I like that the Army is providing an option for OCS. I just want him to know what his options are, and he can move forward. My wife wants to reach out to the CO but I want him to handle it. Perhaps I'm being too passive. Thanks again, best wishes to your son!!!

 

[Pappy_VanRankle]

Thank you for your input, Pappy! I will continue to pry but for now he's sticking with he's still waiting for approval to commission. The conversation with his NROTC unit is that he was NOT told he lost his commission and that they are waiting for Navy Training Command for approval. I like that the Army is providing an option for OCS. I just want him to know what his options are, and he can move forward. My wife wants to reach out to the CO but I want him to handle it. Perhaps I'm being too passive. Thanks again, best wishes to your son!!!

Thanks! Your instincts are 100% right. He needs to handle it, but your counsel can be a huge help. In my son's case, he waited almost 2 years for NSTC to complete the disenrollment process. A question I didn't think to ask, but did he go on his First Class cruise last summer? If he didn't, I'll suggest that there's almost no chance that they'll commission him, so just be aware. Again, best of luck, and don't let the process/outcome get him down.

 

[GWU PNS]

I am not exactly sure where to begin with this. But I'll just jump in and see where it goes.

Do you happen to know if the physics classes were part of the reason for disenrollment? I ask because if the answer is YES, then the first step in that process would have been to issue him a letter of warning or place him on academic probation, followed by a more severe step of initiating a Leave of Absence (LOA) which would have removed his scholarship until he passed those classes.

If the physics class was not the reason for disenrollment, then whatever else there was, would have resulted in a Professional Review Board (PRB). If there was a PRB (and I suspect there was), there would have been an initial notification letter sent to him, which included explaining his rights, and then the actual PRB. He would have been allowed to submit documents, provide character witnesses, and make an oral argument in front of three naval officers which would have included the Executive Officer.

Then he would have been notified in writing of the outcome of the PRB, and given 5 days to provide any rebuttal on that decision. Finally the PNS would have reviewed that and forwarded it off to Naval Service Training Command. A flag officer would review it, along with a Staff Judge Advocate who would validate legal requirements were met (this includes proof of service to him....meaning the PNS had to demonstrate your son was properly notified and given sufficient time to respond.)

After all of that, considering there would be a need for recoupment of funds (or enlisted service), that package would be routed all the way up to the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Manpower and Reserve Affairs. The amount of legal scrutiny given to these things is, to say the least, ROBUST.

And for clarity, the decision for him to be disenrolled resides with Naval Service Training Command. The DASN role is to determine whether recoupment will be monetary or by enlisted service.

I feel the need to deliver a bit of "tough love" which I rarely do on here, but sometimes.......anyways. I promise you, you DO NOT have the whole story here. To assume that the Navy would simply not inform someone that they had been disenrolled, and just leave them hanging, it's just beyond the pale. If in any way this were true, then every senior officer at that unit should be dismissed. And so I will just say it......there is more to this story that either you are unaware of, or you are aware of and just prefer to ignore. But this does not hinge on a mere physics course that was eventually passed. The amount of work that must go into these disenrollment packages is hideous and NO ONE wants to do it if you can avoid it. And besides that, no one wants to treat a Midshipman that way.

If your son desires a copy of his paperwork, I suspect all he needs to do is call the unit and ask for a copy. If he doesn't want to call the unit, he could write to Naval Service Training Command and I suspect they would direct the unit to send a copy of the paperwork. As a separate note, anytime a Midshipman who was on scholarship fails to commission on time, there is a staff code at NSTC that asks for the paperwork, so it's pretty hard to hide the fact that someone was disenrolled.

And as for you or your spouse calling the unit for information, let me prejudge the answer from them. They will tell you that your adult son needs to be the one to make contact and request his information. Because it is privacy act protected and they cannot release it to you or your spouse. And for what its worth, the university won't release his grades to you either, under the FERPA act.

To be honest, I am writing this not so much for you but for all of the parents and applicants who wonder if NROTC really treats people so poorly. You won't hear me nominate any of us for sainthood, but you really, really need to sit back with a calm mind and ask yourself........does this make any sense? And then have that tough conversation with the young man and say.........OK.....Out with it........what is really going on?

I do wish you the best in this, and hopefully it settles itself out in the long run.

 

[kinnem]

I guess I'm confused. If I understand it correctly your son:
1. Received a scholarship
2. Failed physics at some point and "lost" his scholarship.
3. Was allowed to continue in NROTC and subsequently passed physics.
4. Graduated while still continuing with NROTC.

Did he ever lose his contract?

 

[momx3]

I am not exactly sure where to begin with this. But I'll just jump in and see where it goes.

Do you happen to know if the physics classes were part of the reason for disenrollment? I ask because if the answer is YES, then the first step in that process would have been to issue him a letter of warning or place him on academic probation, followed by a more severe step of initiating a Leave of Absence (LOA) which would have removed his scholarship until he passed those classes.

If the physics class was not the reason for disenrollment, then whatever else there was, would have resulted in a Professional Review Board (PRB). If there was a PRB (and I suspect there was), there would have been an initial notification letter sent to him, which included explaining his rights, and then the actual PRB. He would have been allowed to submit documents, provide character witnesses, and make an oral argument in front of three naval officers which would have included the Executive Officer

This is spot on advice.

My son received a NROTC scholarship 5 years ago, and everything was going great until his junior year when he failed physics. He had to retake it several times and finally passed, he also passed physics II. We believe we lost his scholarship sometime during his Senior year.

Thanks in advance if you have any knowledge, experience, or recommendations regarding a similar situation.

If your son 'lost his scholarship' how was his tuition paid for the remainder of his courses? And if it was 'lost' then he would have received notice of it and would have been the subject of a PRB. Anytime any of the mids fall below a requirement- GPA, required course grade for NROTC, then they are summoned to a PRB, thereafter the results are given to them. Was your son placed on Academic Probation through the unit? Was he given a LOA? (leave of absence) I speak from personal parental experience after my mid suffered both Academic probation and a LOA (leave of absence) which meant she was still in her unit, but the govt was not paying her tuition, that was on her. Thankfully, she was reinstated and ironically made Dean's list after her LOA, which was result of getting a 'D' in a required course, and killed her GPA. But- none of this was done without a PRB and without written notice to her. Your son has the right to inspect his NROTC file in the unit. He needs to make an appointment and go in and review the file, as I am pretty certain that the information he needs will be contained therein. Good luck with it.

 

[SECO]

am not exactly sure where to begin with this. But I'll just jump in and see where it goes.

Do you happen to know if the physics classes were part of the reason for disenrollment? I ask because if the answer is YES, then the first step in that process would have been to issue him a letter of warning or place him on academic probation, followed by a more severe step of initiating a Leave of Absence (LOA) which would have removed his scholarship until he passed those classes.

If the physics class was not the reason for disenrollment, then whatever else there was, would have resulted in a Professional Review Board (PRB). If there was a PRB (and I suspect there was), there would have been an initial notification letter sent to him, which included explaining his rights, and then the actual PRB. He would have been allowed to submit documents, provide character witnesses, and make an oral argument in front of three naval officers which would have included the Executive Officer.

Then he would have been notified in writing of the outcome of the PRB, and given 5 days to provide any rebuttal on that decision. Finally the PNS would have reviewed that and forwarded it off to Naval Service Training Command. A flag officer would review it, along with a Staff Judge Advocate who would validate legal requirements were met (this includes proof of service to him....meaning the PNS had to demonstrate your son was properly notified and given sufficient time to respond.)

After all of that, considering there would be a need for recoupment of funds (or enlisted service), that package would be routed all the way up to the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Manpower and Reserve Affairs. The amount of legal scrutiny given to these things is, to say the least, ROBUST.

And for clarity, the decision for him to be disenrolled resides with Naval Service Training Command. The DASN role is to determine whether recoupment will be monetary or by enlisted service.

I feel the need to deliver a bit of "tough love" which I rarely do on here, but sometimes.......anyways. I promise you, you DO NOT have the whole story here. To assume that the Navy would simply not inform someone that they had been disenrolled, and just leave them hanging, it's just beyond the pale. If in any way this were true, then every senior officer at that unit should be dismissed. And so I will just say it......there is more to this story that either you are unaware of, or you are aware of and just prefer to ignore. But this does not hinge on a mere physics course that was eventually passed. The amount of work that must go into these disenrollment packages is hideous and NO ONE wants to do it if you can avoid it. And besides that, no one wants to treat a Midshipman that way.

If your son desires a copy of his paperwork, I suspect all he needs to do is call the unit and ask for a copy. If he doesn't want to call the unit, he could write to Naval Service Training Command and I suspect they would direct the unit to send a copy of the paperwork. As a separate note, anytime a Midshipman who was on scholarship fails to commission on time, there is a staff code at NSTC that asks for the paperwork, so it's pretty hard to hide the fact that someone was disenrolled.

And as for you or your spouse calling the unit for information, let me prejudge the answer from them. They will tell you that your adult son needs to be the one to make contact and request his information. Because it is privacy act protected and they cannot release it to you or your spouse. And for what its worth, the university won't release his grades to you either, under the FERPA act.

To be honest, I am writing this not so much for you but for all of the parents and applicants who wonder if NROTC really treats people so poorly. You won't hear me nominate any of us for sainthood, but you really, really need to sit back with a calm mind and ask yourself........does this make any sense? And then have that tough conversation with the young man and say.........OK.....Out with it........what is really going on?

I do wish you the best in this, and hopefully it settles itself out in the long run.

Thanks CAPT, this is the information I was looking for to have the heart to heart. I did not know the process, and I knew what he was telling me didn't make sense. He did say he's waiting for NSTC to approve his package for not passing Physics. I suspect he went through a PRB and is waiting the results. With that said, It sounds like there might be more to it than his shortcomings in Physics. Especially, if he finally passed it and Physics II. Assuming he is going through the PRB process, do you know how long this would take? I realize Flag officers have many other priorities. Thanks again for taking the time to inform us on the process.

 

[GWU PNS]

Thanks CAPT, this is the information I was looking for to have the heart to heart. I did not know the process, and I knew what he was telling me didn't make sense. He did say he's waiting for NSTC to approve his package for not passing Physics. I suspect he went through a PRB and is waiting the results. With that said, It sounds like there might be more to it than his shortcomings in Physics. Especially, if he finally passed it and Physics II. Assuming he is going through the PRB process, do you know how long this would take? I realize Flag officers have many other priorities. Thanks again for taking the time to inform us on the process.

From the initial notification to him of the PRB, he has 5 days to prepare or he can request an extension if needed for good cause.

Once the board is completed and he is notified in writing of the results, he has 5 days to appeal in writing. But if NSTC is reviewing this then it sounds like this has already happened.

There are other possibilities for the delay but I would be speculating wildly. I had a Mid who cheated on a physics exam using an online software program. It took the University 4 months to adjudicate and then they sent the information to us. We then did a PRB for an honor code violation and that took even more time. Again.....totally guessing but it could be something like that and now he is hoping the Admiral would give him a second chance.

 

[SECO]

This is spot on advice.

If your son 'lost his scholarship' how was his tuition paid for the remainder of his courses? And if it was 'lost' then he would have received notice of it and would have been the subject of a PRB. Anytime any of the mids fall below a requirecment- GPA, required course grade for NROTC, then they are summoned to a PRB, thereafter the results are given to them. Was your son placed on Academic Probation through the unit? Was he given a LOA? (leave of absence) I speak from personal parental experience after my mid suffered both Academic probation and a LOA (leave of absence) which meant she was still in her unit, but the govt was not paying her tuition, that was on her. Thankfully, she was reinstated and ironically made Dean's list after her LOA, which was result of getting a 'D' in a required course, and killed her GPA. But- none of this was done without a PRB and without written notice to her. Your son has the right to inspect his NROTC file in the unit. He needs to make an appointment and go in and review the file, as I am pretty certain that the information he needs will be contained therein. Good luck with it.

Thanks for your reply. Before I left active duty and before he received his scholarship I left him and my other son the Post 911 GI Bill. He was going to a private school and doing ROTC at another University. Problem was the private school had dorm issues and my son was using the GI Bill to pay for his housing which was off campus. I suspect if he lost his scholarship due to his grades he was using the GI bill to pay tuition and his housing. I should have been more engaged. Once I have the heart to heart I will inform him to check his file. Thanks again for sharing your experience! Good luck to your daughter...GO NAVY!!!

 

[SECO]

I guess I'm confused. If I understand it correctly your son:
1. Received a scholarship
2. Failed physics at some point and "lost" his scholarship.
3. Was allowed to continue in NROTC and subsequently passed physics.
4. Graduated while still continuing with NROTC.

Did he ever lose his contract?

He continued to participate in NROTC after he failed Physics several times. He eventually passed and also passed Physics II. He's a good young man but I'm sure there is more to the story from other post. I know he wasn't getting his stipend so he must of lost his contract. He said he would get it back after passing physics.

 

[GWU PNS]

Thanks for your reply. Before I left active duty and before he received his scholarship I left him and my other son the Post 911 GI Bill. He was going to a private school and doing ROTC at another University. Problem was the private school had dorm issues and my son was using the GI Bill to pay for his housing which was off campus. I suspect if he lost his scholarship due to his grades he was using the GI bill to pay tuition and his housing. I should have been more engaged. Once I have the heart to heart I will inform him to check his file. Thanks again for sharing your experience! Good luck to your daughter...GO NAVY!!!

This concerns me a little. Generally speaking, NROTC scholarship monies and GI Bill do not mix, and that is by federal statute. Also, he can use an NROTC scholarship at a host institution or the affiliated cross town or consortium units. But he cannot be attending a non affiliated university and then jist drop in on another NROTC program.

I am wondering if he was in an Advanced Standing status for NROTC. But I would prefer not to know because if that answer is yes and the GI Bill auditors find out he will be asked to repay the GI Bill. So this is sounding more complicated than I could be able to facilitate over email.

 

[SECO]

Good afternoon CAPT, he was awarded the scholarship to an affiliated cross-town college. I called the people at the GI Bill prior to his junior year. They said he could apply his benefits while under a NROTC scholarship to pay for his rent. They stated it would cost the same amount of months even if he's only using a portion of the benefit. I directed him to the veterans representative at the university that he was attending, so I would hope they did it the right way.

V/R, Jeff
Jeffrey.thacker@yahoo.com