hazing

While I think this is a good discussion topic, and it's evident that some non-SMC colleges have some forms of hazing for at least some portion of the student population, I don't think we need to air all the sordid details here. Let's remember this is a family forum. Try to keep your comments in bounds.

Apologize if some of the information which came from a magazine article on Ivy League hazing at fraternities was too graphic. However, this discussion re hazing is obviously important to HS students and parents considering SMCs and comes up often. It needs to be put into proper context. Stories of "hazing" at military colleges unfortunately become conflated with stories of truly horrific "hazing" initiations among some military organizations, as well as high school and college athletic teams, bands, fraternities and sororities. Forced binge drinking, physical beatings, "pinnings" and worse, happen a lot outside of SMCs. But because SMC rules against any form of physical and demeaning abuse of entering cadets, or forbidding personal service by new cadets for upper classes, are so carefully monitored and enforced, they get media attention with headlines declaring "hazing."
 
Citadel: Four upperclass cadets leave school, 20 disciplined amid 85 hazing and other allegations

Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2015/02/20/4000937/citadel-four-upperclass-cadets.html#storylink=cpy

Looks like Capt. Paluso is not messing around!

"Paluso’s SEAL training is by all accounts some of the most brutal military training there is, with only a handful of every 100 candidates who begin each class making it to the finish."

Correct - Captain Paluso intends that being an upper class rank holder and on Cadre requires adherence to both the letter and spirit of the rules - personal discipline is paramount. Leadership training does not end with the 4th Class year and should increase in its demands as Cadets rise up through the ranks to their Senior year. As Robert E. Lee stated - "I cannot trust a man to control others who cannot control himself."
 
DS, a 2nd-year SMC cadet, says it is always the individual cadet's responsibility to demonstrate the highest standard of moral courage and to choose to do the right thing, to stand up for the ideals of duty, honor, country, to fight for those who can't fight for themselves. He says that weeding out those who would do otherwise, if proven they really did cross a line, is always right.

I challenged him on this, saying, basically: But if the adult staff at a school routinely looks the other way regarding a clearly stated rule that is routinely broken, when does that rule fall off the "zero tolerance" list? Do parents of cadets accused of hazing, and proven guilty of it, have a right to fault the adult staff for not enforcing the rules?

He repeated: We are adults preparing for our adult lives, many of us preparing for combat leadership. If we aren't leaders within the Corps, if we don't stand for the ideals of honor, we don't belong in the military, and we don't belong in a Corps of Cadets at a Senior Military College.

From my perspective as a parent, I believe that the cadets who would see power in continuing hazing "traditions" are far fewer in number than SMC cadets who believe in the ideals of truth and wisdom.
 
People do stupid things. My son has said from his experience at a SMC is that the person doing the hazing is really risking their military career while in college. There is real fear of anything bad happening from leadership. People are exhaustively trained in proper leadership. There is zero tolerance for stupid behavior at SMC s and less in the military. Still people do stupid things at SMCs, colleges, the military and pratically everywhere else.
 
Senior Military Colleges are not for everyone. The SMC environment is hard, structured, stressful, mentally and physically challenging with the goal of producing military officers. And while many SMC graduates do not pursue a military career, they are trained as military officers (Senior Military Colleges).
When my son decided to attend an SMC I told him that if HE decides to attend to do his research, make sure it is what HE wants and if HE decides HE wants to attend don’t call me wanting to quit because of the so-called hazing. I told him it is all a game. IGNORE it and drive onto the objective. If you make the decision learn from the experience be a man and see it through.
He spoke to SMC alumni and they told him that “academics comes first and the best thing to do is to blend in and learn how to be a team player. It is a game. When you’re being ripped into cuss them to yourself, laugh at them in your mind, but don’t let them beat you it is a game.” All of the alumni he spoke with would do it all over again and he spoke to many alumni from different SMCs.
On his overnight trip he was told a bunch of stories about what to expect. To many people the stories of what cadets endure have no place in modern society. But the cadets joke about it, they know the upper classman are playing a game that is part of the system and say that working with their classmates to get through has created a strong bond, helped them build team building skills and learn leadership skills. They also told him “academics come first and the best thing to do is to blend in and learn how to be a team player. It is a game. When you’re being ripped into cuss them to yourself, laugh at them in your mind, but don’t let them beat you it is a game.“ See the trend.
Like in every institution not just colleges, there are some bad apples that take things to the extreme. SMCs administrations work hard to provide a safe environment, have checks and balances in place and they work to ensure that isolated incidents are handled in the right manner. I have researched and I have not found SMCs to have larger incidents of HAZING than other institutions. Again SMCs aren’t for everyone and one man’s hazing is another man’s learning experience.
Do your research beforehand and if you or your parents are not comfortable with the so-called SMC hazing then don’t attend an SMC. There are many good not military institutions. My son found SMC to be a challenge that will prepare him to be successful in life and in the military.

I agree 100%. It was my son's decision to attend a SMC. Before he applied I asked him if he was certain because he knew what he was signing up for. His response to me was "Mom! It's all a game". As his Mom, the best thing I could do for him at that point is respect his decision and hand him the reigns. I feel the biggest problem with a lot of things happening at SMC's (aside from actual physical abuse) is that parents don't know how to "let go". I feel if a parent or student are uncomfortable with the SMC type environment, they should probably steer clear and go another route.
 
Is knob bracing hazing? Making a knob get the traditional haircut, is it hazing? Can you ell and scream at mama's boy in formation? Where do you draw the line? How far left or right do you over correct? I hear it all is being questioned....

On a side note I heard it really got bad when cadets were allowed to have their cell phones. One call home to mama, and she is standing at the gates...... I don't believe in hazing as in putting your hands on a cadet but plain military type discipline is being questioned. The military discipline that has made the SMC's what they are is in question and disappearing.

I realize give an inch take a mile. Risk vs benefit and defining what is hazing--- what ain't hazing. It is a hard call I am sure. So of course the institution is going to err (for lack of a better word) on the extreme politically correct side.

Where do you draw the line????

Exactly! Some of the "infractions" I am hearing about seem seriously trumped up. I know of two cases reported as hazing that were nowhere close to being so.
 
I went through Marine boot camp in 1984, trust me when I say you are lucky to be at an SA or SMC. DS is an MSII , no reports of hazing or mistreatment at his unit ( probably wouldn't tell me if there was), all business and very professional.
I went through in 89 and wished they could have been more physical with some of the lackeys. Biggest lesson i learned was that leaders find a better way.
For some reason, the verbal stuff never remotely bothered me.
I never really felt hazed and just took it as preparation for being a successful Marine.

I described to my DS, the "pinning of stripes" upon newly promoted peers out in the fleet, as well as the Blood Stripe when buddies made Corporal. The only people who ever really got tore up were the ones who ran or said, 'you'll never get me." Those guys would limp for a few days after that...
 
My son was accepted to The Citadel and spent a night there in the Pre-Knob program. He heard first hand from knobs about what goes on in terms of hazing. While my son said he'd have no problem with (and would largely expect) run of the mill physical/mental hazing like extra pushups, marching in the rain at midnight, having his room ransacked minutes before an inspection, etc and all of the other knob peculiarities (speed walking, no sidewalks, no front entrances, etc) the one thing that stood out as disturbing was that upperclassmen would often come into a knob's room at 10 or 11 at night and tear up your class notes or homework that you spent hours working on. That was just too much over the line for him, and decided for this and other reasons that it wasn't the place for him. Building mental toughness is one thing, but screwing with someone academically at a $45K/year school was a little much.
 
run of the mill physical/mental hazing like extra pushups, marching in the rain at midnight, having his room ransacked minutes before an inspection, etc and all of the other knob peculiarities (speed walking, no sidewalks, no front entrances, etc) the one thing that stood out as disturbing was that upperclassmen would often come into a knob's room at 10 or 11 at night and tear up your class notes or homework that you spent hours working on.

I don't consider the first half of that hazing, but the class notes and homework, that has no place in any school. At CGA academic time was sacred, near holy. This was especially true for 4/c cadets who were still adapting to the new pressures. They needed their time to study. In fact, their upperclass would check in on them to make sure they were doing their work, and that nothing was coming in the way of it. 4/c on academic probation were off-limits during study period, even to friends that just wanted to talk. It was the time to work and bring up their GPAs.

This was supported in the Corps of Cadets, the faculty and the staff. You can imagine how angry faculty members would be if they discovered their students were being harrassed while they were supposed to study.

Now, before that time? Yes, you were getting your butt kicked. But like everything in training, that had a time and a place.
 
LITS, same experience at Navy. The minute that bell rang for study period, it became quiet and it was hands off. If an upperclassman was caught messing with a Plebe during that hour it would be over for them. If they actually destroyed work we had done in anyway, my guess is they would be getting the worst conduct offense possible or even separated. That time was very protected and should be. And agree, the first part isn't hazing, its standard training for the Fourth Class/Plebe/Knob/New Cadet training. None of us would of ever called that hazing.
 
Well as word goes.... the first part is now considered hazing. Not saying it is not true but I have never heard of the homework situation. But unfortunately Batts differ and so do Companies in a Batt. I too would be pissed about the homework thing.
 
...upperclassmen would often come into a knob's room at 10 or 11 at night and tear up your class notes or homework that you spent hours working on. That was just too much over the line for him, and decided for this and other reasons that it wasn't the place for him. Building mental toughness is one thing, but screwing with someone academically at a $45K/year school was a little much.

Cadet,

Good on your son. There's no need for discussing and trying to explain the situation or harking back to the good ole days. Investigations, reports, disciplining...He saw what he saw and moved on. The inmates are running the asylum. And the inmates are kids. Kids do stupid things and longer they get away with it, the stupider their actions become.

Why would anyone want to be in a situation in which you cannot defend yourself without first consulting the rulebook, institutional traditions and the consensus of your running mates who are too scared to defend themselves.

Hope things work out for him. If he aspires to military service let's hope his experience doesn't turn him off. There are other routes.

Best of luck to your son!
 
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I am sure that young men and women don't always show the best judgement and that's part of the SMC process, learning how to be leaders and how to hold those who do not adhere to the honor code responsible for their actions. Academics are always off limits. I believe that The Citadel recently cleaned house on cadets accused of hazing. They also posted the following: http://www.citadel.edu/root/news-archives-sy04-05-grad_rate
 
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