If you're frustrated waiting for the BFE, this maybe why.

bookreader said:
I disagree. You have to begin the process to even see if you might qualify. Instead of requiring everyone to complete the entire applicaiton process, the army wisely puts up red lights when they find that a candidate does not meet their criteria. This saves everyone time. But that person still did apply and tried to gain admittance.
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Um, it's not "complete the application process" it's just "complete the application." We're talking before they go through the interviews and nominations process. West Point and Annapolis count someone who only started filling out an application (form). That IS a bit of a stretch. It's FAR more accurate, and in line with other stats, to count completed applications (note I'm not saying "completed application process").
 
buff81 said:
The '15,000' is the number of files opened. You can send an inquiry to WP and do nothing else and it will be counted as a file.
A file opened does not mean an application. There is a screening done by the RC. They will determine whether to close your file or open your portal up for the application process.
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Exactly. They're puffing up their stats.
 
For all the class of 2020 candidates, the pending evaluation status for your application is just what buff is referring to. A good number of those who wanted to apply won't be allowed to continue on to the full application and will be told what they need to do to improve to continue on. Throughout the process the RC controls the number that make it through become fully qualified - mostly in the form of authorizing the medical exam and requesting waivers, but also in seeking waivers and retesting for the CFA or academics or behavior.
 
bookreader said:
I disagree. You have to begin the process to even see if you might qualify. Instead of requiring everyone to complete the entire applicaiton process, the army wisely puts up red lights when they find that a candidate does not meet their criteria. This saves everyone time. But that person still did apply and tried to gain admittance.
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No . . . I agree with Rocko. I think this "selection rate myth" has a lot to do with "marketing" to appeal to one's "elitism".

Don't get me wrong. The SA's are fine schools. I'm biased. I'm a graduate from one . . . got a great education and had a great career. . . but this low selection statistic isn't right.

It is true that the application "process" is grueling thanks to the great benefits of being able to go to a SA and the need to compete for, and gain, a "Nomination". (Isn't it interesting that while some 4,000 to 5,000 applicants gain a nomination, only approximately 2,300-3,300 are considered "qualified academically and in physical aptitude" by the SA's?)

Then there is the need to pass through the medical gods known as "DoDMERB" and if you accurately self report on your form for the items they don't even test for, there is a high likelihood you will be sent to the purgatory of "remedial" or medical waiver hell.

And of course our national security vitally depends on every soldier's ability to throw a basket ball . . . yada yada yada . . .

What's my point? . . . The SAs are fine schools. They don't need to skew their selection rate statistics. Probably attracts the wrong type of kids anyway. All they need to say is the selection process is different from most every other "civilian" school. Of the 15,000 that typically start the process each year, approximately 5,000 (or 33%) find themselves truly able to "compete" for one of the approximately 1200 slots.
 
I agree Falcon A. The vast majority of Ivy students would not get accepted to the Academies even if they wanted. Does that mean the Academies are "More selective"? No, it means they are looking for a different group of students then the Ivy schools are.

Maybe the marketing approach is working too well. Perhaps there are a lot of Ivy league type students starting an application only to stop once they see they are required to do a pull-up!
 
Falcon A said:
They don't need to skew their selection rate statistics.
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Not so sure the 3 military academy's are "trying to skew" their stats any more than any other premier university -- like all those that have gone to the Common App to crank up their applicant numbers and improve their reported admission/selectivity "stats".

The application process to a civilian college is very very simple. Those without essay requirements can be completed online in less than 30 minutes. Those with essay requirements, a couple/three hours. To try and make the SA's "applicant numbers" apples to apples with essentially all of the other 3,000 or so 4 year colleges in the US, they are using the "initial application" #'s. Reasonable and logical, and about the same amount of time/work that would have been done to submit a civilian college application.

Filtering SA applicant reported numbers down to those who did the full "civilian application level of work including essays" plus met with their BGO/ALO/MALO several times at SA events and then interviewed with him/her, plus the fitness testing, plus the DODMERB dance plus petitioning their MOC, and then interviewing with their MOC, well those "applicant #'s" ain't close to apples to apples with what USNWR, Forbes, Barrons et al use in crafting their rankings with civilian colleges so it would disproportionately hurt the military SA's overall rankings.

The military SA's reporting seems about right in light of the above, that is, it is most apples to apples with the level of effort exerted in comparison with civilian colleges at the earliest applicant stages.
 
Considering a started, but not completed app….. as an app…. is purposely skewing the stats. Sorry.
 
MotoMan said:
Filtering SA applicant reported numbers down to those who did the full "civilian application level of work including essays" plus met with their BGO/ALO/MALO several times at SA events and then interviewed with him/her, plus the fitness testing, plus the DODMERB dance plus petitioning their MOC, and then interviewing with their MOC, well those "applicant #'s" ain't close to apples to apples with what USNWR, Forbes, Barrons et al use in crafting their rankings with civilian colleges so it would disproportionately hurt the military SA's overall rankings.
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I don't disagree, except that nothing you've said is what we're talking about here. I agree that requiring someone to go through all of those steps before they're considered an applicant would be unfair. That's not what people here are saying (it also ignores the fact that other colleges also have interviews).

USNA and USMA are counting anyone who has OPENNED an application as being an applicant. "I'd like more information" is not an application. Clicking on a form, online, is not an application.

Completing an application IS an application. There is a step between opening and application and going throught DODMERB, Congressional nominations, PAEs and PFEs , interviews, BGO interviews, etc etc etc..... CLICKING SUBMIT on an application. But just small little click is too hard for USMA and USNA to track?

I'm not saying these two academies should wait until an applicant has done everything before considering them an applicant, but I think most here would agree... to be an applicant.... you actually have to APPLY.

That seems like a pretty straight forward concept. They were even nice enough to include the A-P-P-L from apply in applicant. Huh! Whoda thunk it?
 
I didn't realize that just asking for more info would be considered as an application. I thought that an application was, well, actually an applicaiton. Silly me. I should know my now that the army can define something any way it wants. :)
 
LineInTheSand said:
I don't disagree, except that nothing you've said is what we're talking about here. I agree that requiring someone to go through all of those steps before they're considered an applicant would be unfair. That's not what people here are saying (it also ignores the fact that other colleges also have interviews).

USNA and USMA are counting anyone who has OPENNED an application as being an applicant. "I'd like more information" is not an application. Clicking on a form, online, is not an application.

Completing an application IS an application. There is a step between opening and application and going throught DODMERB, Congressional nominations, PAEs and PFEs , interviews, BGO interviews, etc etc etc..... CLICKING SUBMIT on an application. But just small little click is too hard for USMA and USNA to track?

I'm not saying these two academies should wait until an applicant has done everything before considering them an applicant, but I think most here would agree... to be an applicant.... you actually have to APPLY.

That seems like a pretty straight forward concept. They were even nice enough to include the A-P-P-L from apply in applicant. Huh! Whoda thunk it?
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Obviously there is a huge gray area here. The SAs would like to appear "selective" and "highly competitive", which they are. Obviously if someone "asks for more information" or merely applies for SLE or NASS, that (IMO) should not constitute an "applicant". They also shouldn't consider
 
bookreader said:
I didn't realize that just asking for more info would be considered as an application. I thought that an application was, well, actually an applicaiton. Silly me. I should know my now that the army can define something any way it wants. :)
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I think an application is considered an application when someone APPLIES.

If I'm playing hockey and I wind up for a shot.... it's not a shot unless I actually swing and hit the puck. It takes follow through.

Opening a page on a website and never doing anything else (like actually applying) isn't an application.
 
SleepMaster said:
Obviously there is a huge gray area here. The SAs would like to appear "selective" and "highly competitive", which they are. Obviously if someone "asks for more information" or merely applies for SLE or NASS, that (IMO) should not constitute an "applicant". They also shouldn't consider
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...just the candidates who actually finish the application. There's no black and white answer here.
 
I'm pretty sure that's black and white. If you don't apply... you're not an applicant.

Keep in mind there is a difference between "applying" and "the application process". To me, application process involves all of that other stuff.... physicals, Congressional noms, DODMERB, etc. That WOULDN'T be fair to include in the numbers... it's a disadvantage. But to "apply" is to open an application page.... enter your information and submit to West Point or the Naval Academy. That's no different than other schools.

To "apply" is nothing special. That's the number that SHOULD be included. I've love to know what the "completed application" numbers are. I'll tell you what'd we'd find out very quickly, neither West Point nor Annapolis are highly selective.
 
LITS - you mention that USMA and USNA count their applicants the same way. How do the other 3 do it?
 
CGA is completed applications. I'm not sure how USMMA or USAFA do it though.
 
It appears from these 2 links: 1.) http://www.acceptancerate.com/schools/united-states-air-force-academy & 2.) http://www.usafa.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=21371
that USAFA uses "applicants" or "application submitted" -- not "applicant files started" as is depicted on the USMA Class of 2018 Class profile sheet. http://www.usma.edu/oir/class profiles/class of 2018.pdf

To USMA's credit -- they clearly state the basis of their 15,000+ number as being "applicant files started". My issue is that should not be the basis for an acceptance percentage. If USMA's submitted applications numbers are similar to USAFA's, and I bet they are, an acceptance rate of 12% - 16% is still a pretty tough school to get into. No need to compete with Yale's 6.9% acceptance rate -- the SA's are going after a different group of kids.
 
The SA have a two step process. Before you can get an appointment you must receive a nomination from one of the many avenues. This makes becoming a Plebe a little more difficult compared to a State U. If you truly want to serve there are three ways to accomplish your goals. Always work Plan A, B, and C simultaneously.

Push Hard, Press Forward
 
tug_boat said:
The SA have a two step process. Before you can get an appointment you must receive a nomination from one of the many avenues. This makes becoming a Plebe a little more difficult compared to a State U. If you truly want to serve there are three ways to accomplish your goals. Always work Plan A, B, and C simultaneously.

Push Hard, Press Forward
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I guess the thing I find confusing is.... why?

Here's what I know. There are MANY more steps in applying and being accepted to a service academy. My experience is dated now, but the first thing I had to do was show interest. I then applied. After I applied I had to do things like the PAE/PFE, interview, interview, interview, go through DODMERB (again and again and again), etc. This was true for my application to the U.S. Naval Academy and U.S. Merchant Marine Academy. The only difference with my application to the U.S. Coast Guard Academy was the Congressional nomination, which, let's be honest, is not the limiting factor in someon being accepted or rejected from a service academy.

There was much more to do for my service academy applications than, say, Washington University in St. Louis or Vanderbilt University.

But.... before I had to do ANY of that... I had to apply. After I showed interest.... I APPLIED. Yes, after I applied, there was more to do, but up until I applied, it was no different from Wash U. or Vandy.

So, why do West Point and Annapolis not count completed applications instead of applications started (and not finished)? One reason..... to make West Point and Annapolis LOOK more competitive. Without trying to augment application numbers USMA and USNA would still have impressive stats.

Frankly, without the fine print... it looks dishonest to me. But of course, that doesn't keep Annapolis from including the information as a boiler plate on its news releases.
 
So what number should they use for "applicants" that would be apples to apples with other schools? Those who got a Nomination? Those who got a nomination and passed DODMERB? Those who got a nomination, passed DODMERB, and the CFA? Or should it just be someone who completed the written part of the application? It's a lot of semantics, especially since the SA's also do an initial evaluation and actually tell some potential candidates to not apply. Other schools don't do that.
 
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