Is weight the new big deal?

armydaughter said:
As has been noted several times, the Army's focus on weight and especially body fat is relatively new.
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AD: I don't know what ROTC program you went to 30 years ago- but I believe your memory may be somewhat flawed. Weight is and has always been a huge deal- at least from around 1978 on (at least until the Army got overwhelmed by two endless wars and they started stop-lossing and deploying everyone who had some degree of personal mobility -I know a LTC who deployed to Afghanistan with his nitroglycerin pills for his heart condition! Then- they only cared about having bodies, but that's in the past.) But with the exception of that 6 or 7 year period- the Army has been measuring weight and body fat using the tape test for a very long time- It's a lousy test, but it is the test they have been using for a very long time. I'm sure that if he's an athlete and is a few pounds from the standard then your son will pass, but if he is sweating this now- then he really needs to understand that this is and will be a constant issue and the only way to really avoid feeling the stress throughout his career is to get this under control now, because lots of folks have had their careers wrecked or terminated because of the weight program . He really needs to dump the weight until he is comfortably under the standard and then adopt a lifestyle that keeps it that way. Start by racking up the running miles. Additionally- work out using the Nautilus 4 way neck machine - (the tape test is a ratio of waist measurement to neck measurement, so one way to beat the tape is to have a relatively thick neck- which is one reason why you will see lots of guys on that machine who aren't necessarily body builders!)

It's a reality of life in the Army, and it's not going to go away,and as many of us know all too well- the older you get the more difficult it is to hold down your weight:eek:. So assuming that he gets this resolved and gets his appointment, he needs to take this seriously while he is just getting started.
 
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Vista123 said:
This topic leads me to address something that is known but never really talked about-which is the true minorities in a service academy. I would love to see data on income of those accepted to the service academies (not couting enlisted)

It is naive and foolish to think that money-and a lot of it- doesn't play a part in the admissions process. Comparing the application fees to a top university and to a service academy is like comparing sea monkeys to big foot.
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Thank you!

I admit that when I read those remedials my first reaction was annoyance. But my immediate second was gratitude that we could do this. I have read on these forums of candidates who tood the bus to their DODMERB physical because their parent couldn't afford to take time off of work. What would that same candidate have done if faced with a minimum of four doctors' office visits (parent required for underage patient), a very long day at the outpatient surgical center and 24/7 the day after anesthesia? I have a flexible work schedule and can pick up my son mid-day, run him to the doctor and get him back to school. Not everyone has that luxury. For us, we pulled out the plastic and paid the $700 for his procedure. It was little more than a wince but for some candidates and their families it would be an insurmountable obstacle.

It isn't the parents who are inventing this stuff by the way. Here on SAF and at every West Pont information event, it is stated that a candidate should take the SAT/ACT as many times as possible. It was at a USMA event that the Cpt. told the prospective candidates of the huge impact that Boys State has on the leadership score. Before that it wasn't even on our radar. I gladly paid for BS and SLS but not everyone has that option. Does this mean they or their parents are less committed? - - no.

Any comparison to other elite universities is flawed at best. For example, multiple Ivy admissions reps have told us that taking the ACT or SAT more than 3 times is discouraged. So are resume builders that you pay for such as SLS or other leadership summer programs. But the opposite is true for the SAs. And the Ivy's and other top tier schools send their reps to your kids, not the other way around. The elite schools only care about top sports honors if you are looking to be recruited. For the SAs, that's something every candidate has to strive for.

Most of our kids have those elite schools as part of their Plan B. So they have to strategize both ways. It's not an either/or but a both/and.

Thank goodness we have the means and flexibilty to do the "both".
 
bruno said:
AD: I don't know what ROTC program you went to 30 years ago- but I believe your memory may be somewhat flawed. Weight is and has always been a huge deal- at least from around 1978 on (at least until the Army got overwhelmed by two endless wars and they started stop-lossing and deploying everyone who had some degree of personal mobility -I know a LTC who deployed to Afghanistan with his nitroglycerin pills for his heart condition! Then- they only cared about having bodies, but that's in the past.) But with the exception of that 6 or 7 year period- the Army has been measuring weight and body fat using the tape test for a very long time- It's a lousy test, but it is the test they have been using for a very long time. I'm sure that if he's an athlete and is a few pounds from the standard then your son will pass, but if he is sweating this now- then he really needs to understand that this is and will be a constant issue and the only way to really avoid feeling the stress throughout his career is to get this under control now, because lots of folks have had their careers wrecked or terminated because of the weight program . He really needs to dump the weight until he is comfortably under the standard and then adopt a lifestyle that keeps it that way. Start by racking up the running miles. Additionally- work out using the Nautilus 4 way neck machine - (the tape test is a ratio of waist measurement to neck measurement, so one way to beat the tape is to have a relatively thick neck- which is one reason why you will see lots of guys on that machine who aren't necessarily body builders!)

It's a reality of life in the Army, and it's not going to go away,and as many of us know all too well- the older you get the more difficult it is to hold down your weight:eek:. So assuming that he gets this resolved and gets his appointment, he needs to take this seriously while he is just getting started.
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I know they army is still trimming the fat, but I have seen 35 y/o privates on Lisinopril and some other heavy duty BP drugs. Since we hand out nitro like candy nowadays I am sure there quite a few AD soldiers with prescriptions out there. I am often surprised at the drug lists for AD troops that are still on full duty status and not med boarded...

For the OP:

As long as his body type is athletic I wouldn't worry about weight as the tape test should be no problem. I never pass weight (5'11 190ish) and get 285+ on every PT test.
 
You're not going to like this...

Me, being a product of Kings Point and two sons who are graduates of Annapolis. My youngest wants to attend USMA which is fine with me. But with all three they asked me for money to do this, to do that. I would say to them "How much do you really want it". At the time they would thought I was the worst dad in the world. And I told them "go earn it". They would go work for what they wanted. Sometimes they worked for me on the boat, but that was the last resort, because they worked hard and I didn't pay much. But everything they wanted, they took ownership for it. They owned their failures and their sucesses. They thought I was mean at the time, but now they are grateful.

Push Hard, Press Forward
 
Armydaughter +1
I can't imagine my son being able to place himself in a competitive position without these crazy expenses-way over and beyond civilian college apps. He is fortunate that you are in a position that you can help him.

Scoutpilot -1
I don't think anyone is complaining about the work it takes to show that you have what it takes. If you re-read what was written perhaps it will be clearer to you. The comment is the CO$T which you turned into a complaint. I also again take exception to referring to this as a free education. Given the service, sacrifice and commitment this NOT (nor is ROTC) free. If we are talking about free than what we are really talking about is the merit scholarships to civilian schools. And those coat a lot less to get!

Tugboat+1
I TOTALY agree! My son tutors and fixes bikes. He also has an opportunity to earn extra money doing odd jobs around the block. The summer before last he had three full time summer jobs. Got into a fender bender and had to pay it all off himself.We do not give out allowances, pay for regular chores or buy new sneakers on a whim. My son does pay for all of his own sports gear (goalie leg pads...ridiculous) we made him pay for some of the application costs and clothes. But like ours, his well runs dry too. Him and his siblings do not ever act put upon -they don't know otherwise.
 
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Vista123 said:
Scoutpilot -1
I don't think anyone is complaining about the work it takes to show that you have what it takes. If you re-read what was written perhaps it will be clearer to you. The comment is the CO$T which you turned into a complaint. I also again take exception to referring to this as a free education. Given the service, sacrifice and commitment this NOT (nor is ROTC) free. If we are talking about free than what we are really talking about is the merit scholarships to civilian schools. And those coat a lot less to get!
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Now we've hit our stride! The irony of waking of waking up in Afghanistan yet again and checking the internet tent to find a lecture from a candidate parent about USMA not being a "free education" is the ironic cherry on this ludicrous sundae.

It is absolutely free. The service rendered to your country is not indentured servitude to recoup the cost of educating us. It's quite gainful employment with opportunities and benefits far beyond what your child would likely find after paying for a civilian education. As a proud graduate myself, I'm the first one to tell you it's a FREE education. Ask an off-the-street OCS cnadidate how many years of elite-level education he got in exchange for his service.

The only ones turning the "CO$T" into complaints are armydaughter, and by extension, you. How many other threads do you see on here with parents lamenting spending money? That's what I thought. The weak attempts to cover your complaints as anything but are pointless. If you want to complain, complain (which you have, clearly) but don't try to sell it to us like you aren't.

USMA doesn't tell you to take the ACT as many times as possible. What we as FFRs say is "take it as many times as you need to until you have a competitive set of scores." For many, many candidates that equates to once. Anything beyond that is your choice, and is reflective of the candidate's abilities and not the USMA admissions system.

Bruno hit on the point I was making to armydaughter about her surprise at the weight issue. The Army has had weight standards since long before your progeny roamed the earth. When I applied, I went through the same thing. There's nothing "relatively new" about it, and to have parents on here claiming such is completely inaccurate. Bruno is 100% correct...fat will ruin your career, especially in lean personnel budget years.

If you truly feel this process asks too much and those merit scholarships to all those elite schools are so much easier to get, perhaps that's the best course of action.
 
armydaughter said:
Thank you!

It was at a USMA event that the Cpt. told the prospective candidates of the huge impact that Boys State has on the leadership score. Before that it wasn't even on our radar. I gladly paid for BS and SLS but not everyone has that option. Does this mean they or their parents are less committed? - - no.
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I find it surprising that your son had to pay for Boys' State. The American Legion sponsors Boys' State and, in our area, the different chapters generously cover the cost of attending for the boys who are selected. Some chapters even provide transportation to and from the site for kids who live some distance away.

Boys' State is valued by civilian colleges too so that is a great extracurricular for your son to have on his resume. West Point is not the only college to recognize the importance of being selected for Boys' State.

As the parent of a graduate of a top civilian university, believe me, you would have already dropped $$$$ just for the basics to outfit a dorm room, the ridiculous overpriced meal plans, the first semester of textbooks, and all of the other myriad charges that they nickel-and-dime you with when you accept their offer of admission.

I think the only thing we bought for our cadet's room was a cheap box fan and a hot pot. Everything else that he needed was provided for him.
 
Dixieland said:
I find it surprising that your son had to pay for Boys' State. The American Legion sponsors Boys' State and, in our area, the different chapters generously cover the cost of attending for the boys who are selected. Some chapters even provide transportation to and from the site for kids who live some distance.
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Not to completely derail this thread but different AL chapters do it differently. In our area, the used to only offer it in the public schools. When the added the private HS applicants, they did it as a subsidy rather than a full sponsorship. This past year the subsidy was $50 - the student was responsible for the rest. As it was explained to me, they felt that they could bring more boys this way and include more schools. DS was happy to have the opportunity which was not available to kids in his school just two years prior.
 
Take it easy...are we on track?

This thread has gone way off to the deep end. As everyone knows, WP has changed its selection policy this year by omitting rolling admissions and very few LOAs. This time last year, the WP thread teemed with announcements of LOA, nominations and appointments. Because of the policy changes, announcements and news is very slow. I imagine by the beginning of next year things will pick up. Until the gates open up, lets not be harsh on one another. We are all seeking advisement to understand the process of selection into WP
 
seriously, this discussion started about weight? Below is a blurb from one of this years Rhodes Scholar selectees. West Point had two this year, this one is from a USNA Midshipman but it applies to anyone who wants to go to a service academy

He is passionate about physical fitness, a marathoner and
an amateur body builder; he is proud that he lost 115 pounds to attend the Naval Academy and to serve in the military.
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You want to get in and weight is what is holding you back, give me a break.

As for anyone who wants to get in, you can do it without SLS, without a varsity letter, without lots of stuff. You do however need other stuff in its place. No two candidates are exactly alike. All met the whole candidate score in some manner and got in. Hopefully they got themselves in, not mom and dad. I made a deal with my wife when our son started to apply. She would have rathered he didn't go, but it was his decision, not ours. We told him up front that it was up to himself to get in. If he wasn't smart enough, tough enough, fit enough to figure it out by himself, then he probably shouldn't be an officer and we weren't going to help him get a career at a job that could cost him his life and maybe the lives of others if it wasn't something he wanted and was willing to work on.
 
armydaughter said:
Not to completely derail this thread but different AL chapters do it differently. In our area, the used to only offer it in the public schools. When the added the private HS applicants, they did it as a subsidy rather than a full sponsorship. This past year the subsidy was $50 - the student was responsible for the rest. As it was explained to me, they felt that they could bring more boys this way and include more schools. DS was happy to have the opportunity which was not available to kids in his school just two years prior.
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So, you're lamenting being in the "four figures" for this, but you send your child to private school? Oh man...
 
I just wanted to say that scoutpilot is one of the most valuable voices on this forum, in my opinion. He gives you the unvarnished active duty perspective, generally pretty eloquently. (I am a former Marine and I know he's Army, but he sounds a lot like a Marine a lot of the time!) If something gets him going, you can assume it will also rub other active duty military the wrong way, and that kind of feedback can be pretty valuable for people trying to navigate a new culture. Such feedback can, I know, be jarring, but that's military too.

Lastly, given the stakes and where he is (Afghanistan, on AD), I'd like to think people can disagree with scout without making analogies to combat, etc.

Thanks.
 
scoutpilot said:
So, you're lamenting being in the "four figures" for this, but you send your child to private school? Oh man...
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Care to explain your comment about "but you send your child to prviate school? Oh man."

Because I send my kids to a prviate school and I might have made same comments about "additionals" costs.
 
MemberLG said:
Care to explain your comment about "but you send your child to prviate school? Oh man."

Because I send my kids to a prviate school and I might have made same comments about "additionals" costs.
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Sure. Happily. Private school costs money. Generally speaking, a LOT of money. Money for something they could have had for free. Now, perhaps you thought the public schools didn't provide the best opportunity, and thus felt as though paying for a private school was a good move. I applaud that. But then to say "we're already four figures into this" about an admissions process, for a FREE education with a guaranteed $50,000 starting job, when a large portion of those charges were for things that, as oldcorpsdad pointed out, are not requirements at all (Boys State, multiple tests) but are simply another means of providing the best opportunity you can for your kid doesn't compute. You'll pay for four years of high school, but a few extra SATs (which help your admissions at ALL schools who superscore, not just SAs) and a trip to the doctor is too much?

That gets a Sunday NFL Countdown "C'mon, man!" Award.

Our new members seemed concerned with my vigor on this issue, and why I would spend my valuable internet time caring. As FFR, I see more and more a sense from people that their child's journey to a service academy should be less like passing a series of tests to ensure they meet the rigorous physical and academic standards and more like being crowned Homecoming Queen. We're not looking for just anyone, and the longer I'm here the more the reason for that bears itself out. So pay the money. Or don't. Take the tests. Or don't. It's all a choice. Just don't come here and expect sympathy from those who've been there and done that (and in some cases, still are doing it) because you had to pay money for Boys State. And don't be surprised when your complaints are called out.

As for questioning my vigor in dealing with the enemy...I only entertain such queries from those who are qualified to speak on the subject.
 
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Prep said:
I thought the same exact thing. or something pretty close
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OK it seems from your posts that like PBA you want to go to a SA. Before you make comments like these you should probably get some experience and first hand knowledge in what you are talking about it would make both of you seem a little less clueless. Scout like someone else posted is a wealth of information coming from EXPERIENCE. The fact that a parent is complaining (maybe it was not meant as complaining but yea I also took it as complaining) about spending some money to get into one of the best schools in the world is humorous. I also sent my kinds to private school, and we spent the same amount of money applying to the top tier schools as we did for West Point and even though it was a strain on us financially we chose to do it, no one forced us. Taking the SAT and ACT multiple times (don't know which Ivy schools said that you should only take it 3 times but that is not what we heard from the 2 Ivies and the extremely well known private university just south of San Francisco that accepted my DS), the overnight visits they all added up to quite a bit and we made the college visits our vacation last summer. After another video chat with our Plebe (USMA class of 2016!) we know that it was worth it he really loves it there. Scout thanks for your service to our country and for taking the time to respond to the various questions posted in this forum. I do however have to question one of your points, in the research I have done that guaranteed job is worth over $60,000 with benefits more than the starting salary that the current Ivy undergraduates make.
 
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RSR said:
in the research I have done that guaranteed job is worth over $60,000 with benefits more than the starting salary that the current Ivy undergraduates make.
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I suppose it depends on how you value the benefits that accompany the monthly pay: Housing, dental, medical + possibly Board. There are zip codes, for example central Texas, where housing allowance (01 without dependents) is worth about $850 per month, and others, for example southern California, where housing can be worth $1,700 per month. Due to that variable, it's hard to precisely determine the value of the complete package.

At any rate, the actual pay an officer receives is revised annually, and currently looks like this starting 1/1/2013: http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp

As you can see, an O1 for the first two years makes about $34,500 + Housing + Medical/Dental + possibly Board per year. At the two year mark, having logged two years and now at 02, the officer will be making $46,000 + Housing + Medical/Dental + possibly Board per year.

I can see how at O2 you could equate that to making about $60k at a civilian job that also has average benefits.
 
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Anecdote: To put things into perspective my parents (who aren't rich) and I probably shelled out close to 10,000-12,000 over the course of my high school career for baseball prospects camps, select travel teams and instructional combines. I think Scout is just stating the obvious. The "sacrifice" of a few thousand now (with dedication) will pay off immensely in the long run. My baseball camps were essentially just for fun and maybe a few D3/CC offers, not a career. I know your comment was meant as an aside, but on a forum like this little quips blow up a thread..

I digress. Back to the original purpose of the thread we goooo
 
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Folks,

This topic was started to discuss weight standards at USMA. Now it has veered into a discussion of free educations, private schools, etc. If you want to discuss those issues, the Off Topic forum is available to you.

If you continue to post in this thread, please ensure your posts are related to USMA.

And, as a final reminder, you can take issue with someone's viewpoint but please do so in a respectful and civil manner.

Thank you.

Your friendly Mod
 
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